Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest MattP]

Some seriously crazy shit going on but attacking your MP's who won seats you were massive outsiders in is tip top mental.

 

[Alf Bentley]

13 hours ago, MattP said:

Some seriously crazy shit going on but attacking your MP's who won seats you were massive outsiders in is tip top mental.

 

 

Firstly, this Rory Murray (Kent Labour student, apparently) is clueless. The Labour Party didn't even exist in 1885, never mind winning elections in Canterbury! 

 

Secondly, events have moved on, Matt: https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/motion-censure-canterbury-mp-rosie-1990780

 

"Canterbury Labour Party secretary Naomi Smith tweeted at around 10pm to inform people that the motion had been overturned. She wrote: “Earlier today you received a motion to censure Rosie Duffield MP.

At the Canterbury branch meeting tonight a motion to withdraw the censure was overwhelmingly passed by those present. The proposer and seconder of the motion have agreed to withdraw the motion.”

 

"In response to the decision, Rosie Duffield tweeted: “Overwhelmed by the support I've received today. Thank you so much to all who've been in touch or tweeted. Luckily, this tiny group of members do not represent my wonderful Canterbury Labour Party as a whole and they weren't able to ruin my last day spent with my eldest son before he leaves for uni.”

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

Firstly, this Rory Murray (Kent Labour student, apparently) is clueless. The Labour Party didn't even exist in 1885, never mind winning elections in Canterbury! 

 

Secondly, events have moved on, Matt: https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/motion-censure-canterbury-mp-rosie-1990780

 

"Canterbury Labour Party secretary Naomi Smith tweeted at around 10pm to inform people that the motion had been overturned. She wrote: “Earlier today you received a motion to censure Rosie Duffield MP.

At the Canterbury branch meeting tonight a motion to withdraw the censure was overwhelmingly passed by those present. The proposer and seconder of the motion have agreed to withdraw the motion.”

 

"In response to the decision, Rosie Duffield tweeted: “Overwhelmed by the support I've received today. Thank you so much to all who've been in touch or tweeted. Luckily, this tiny group of members do not represent my wonderful Canterbury Labour Party as a whole and they weren't able to ruin my last day spent with my eldest son before he leaves for uni.”

What even made them do it? Great to see the motion overturned but how can something like that even get to that point?
 

Little write up from the Red Box today about last night's PLP - I think you are going to be quite short if you think it will only a handful or so being de-selected by the time the next election comes around.
 

Quote

"It wasn't the worst meeting, the tone was quite measured," said one Labour MP. "And then at the end it just went to s***."

Labour MPs had gathered in the oak-panelled committee room to hear from Jeremy Corbyn for the first time since the summer recess. Two of the biggest issues threatening to break the party – antisemitism and party democracy – had come to a head.

A couple of hours before the meeting it had been announced that Rosie Duffield, who won a stunning victory for Labour by taking Canterbury in last year's election (for the first time ever for the party) was facing censure by her local party. Her crime? Attending a demonstration against antisemitism.

It follows similar moves against Joan Ryan, Gavin Shuker, Kate Hoey and Frank Field, who later quit as a Labour MP.

Corbyn tried to strike a conciliatory tone. While tense, MPs seemed to accept what he was saying at face value. Corbyn was asked to help Duffield, he said he wanted Labour to be a "broad church". Labour must "turn our fire outwards", he said.

Then at 7pm tweets began appearing of reports of what Corbyn had "told" the meeting. His media team had briefed his speech in advance to journalists outside.

Except he didn't say it. Crucially he didn't say an apparently "lighthearted" remark about the motion of no confidence he faced from 172 Labour MPs in 2016. "I know what it feels like to be the target of a no-confidence vote but it would be wrong for me to intervene in the democratic rights of any part of the Labour Party."

Wes Streeting, a Labour MP, read out the comments from Twitter sparking a furious reaction in the room. Corbyn appeared to be mouthing "I didn't say that". As voices were raised, MPs began pointing the finger at Seumas Milne, Corbyn's director of communications.

Jon Cryer, the chairman of the parliamentary Labour Party, said there had been leaks from meetings for "time immemorial" but this was the first time he had known of something being briefed that was then not said. There was talk of those responsible being a "liar".

But Team Corbyn held the line: it was "not his place" to step in and interfere with local party decisions.

For Labour MPs who fear the worst, this was a green light from the leadership to move against anyone out of step with the march of the Corbynites.

The anger of senior MPs, including shadow cabinet ministers, was clear. Angela Rayner, the shadow education secretary, tweeted: "Friend and colleague @RosieDuffield1 is a superb MP who happens to be an excellent constituency MP too! Always so supportive in Parliament to me and other colleagues. Sending all my love."

Why does this matter? Isn't this all just some techy Labour in-fighting? The drumbeat of challenges against sitting MPs – including those who won seats for the first time under Saint Jeremy – is growing.

As the party conference approaches, Corbynistas feel emboldened to move against their Labour MPs. Votes of no confidence and censure motions are a prelude to deselections. Len McCluskey, the Unite general secretary and Corbyn ally, told The Independent that critics of the Labour leader "have no part to play" and should "go elsewhere". Aaron Bastani, the Corbynista mouthpiece, tweeted: "I'm reliably informed the deselection express pulled into Westminster tonight. Choo choo!" It included photo of a toy train and a card outside the office of Joan Ryan with the message: "Good luck in Cyprus! Love Trots, Stalinists, Commies and Assorted Hard Left. Choo! Choo!" As the row was unfolding in last night's meeting, Momentum posted a video online making the case for every sitting MP to face mandatory reselection.

If attending a rally against antisemitism is now grounds for action against an MP – the first for Labour in a constituency that has existed for 133 years – no one will feel safe.

Strikingly Matt Zarb-Cousin, a former Corbyn spokesman and cheerleader online, tweeted: "Coming up to three years since Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader, and the very same Labour MPs who have been shit-housing consistently since day 1 are now getting upset because Corbyn won't personally intervene to safeguard their careers. Actions have consequences ya cry babies."

Late last night the motion against Duffield was withdrawn. But the fear among MPs is real and Corbyn did nothing to reassure them he is on their side.

 

[Innovindil]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45481485

 

FeelsGoodMan. 

[Alf Bentley]

On 25/10/2017 at 14:26, MattP said:

People used to go mental when UKIP let an idiot fall through the net, the double standards are amazing, Hallam was a Labour target as well so they should have paid even more attention to this. It's not like they didn't expect this like that moron who now represents them in Canterbury.

 

 

2 hours ago, MattP said:

What even made them do it? Great to see the motion overturned but how can something like that even get to that point?
 

Little write up from the Red Box today about last night's PLP - I think you are going to be quite short if you think it will only a handful or so being de-selected by the time the next election comes around.
 

 

"Great to see the motion overturned" against "that moron" in Canterbury?! Make your mind up, Matt... 

 

Don't worry. These minor inconsistencies occur when you're constantly spewing out cynical posts lambasting the Left as a propagandist for some ill-defined murky crevice of the Right. 

 

"What even made them do it?" "How can something like that even get to that point?"..... Spare us the fake bewilderment, please. 

A couple of dimwitted Corbyn cult members thought they'd ride into battle for St. Jeremy. Pretty amateurishly, given the ease with which they seem to have been slapped down - can't have canvassed much support beforehand.

 

I've not been an active party member for many years but I think the local system is more or less unchanged: each ward meeting appoints delegates to the GMC, the main decision-making body at constituency level (though some use all-members meetings, apparently). So, it seems that a couple of over-enthusiastic, under-prepared Corbynista delegates or members tabled a censure motion - and were slapped down as they lacked the local support to get it passed.

 

I'm not naive. A couple of MPs have already been censured, Frank Field walked before he could be pushed & I presume Kate Hoey is for the high jump sooner rather than later, possibly 1 or 2 more. Maybe you're right in your belief - or your hope (let's be honest) - that a lot more than a handful of MPs will be deselected. But I'm not sure you are. If the Corbynistas go after Moderates en masse, there'll be a full-scale civil war within the party - and they might lose a lot of those deselection battles, anyway, as most longstanding party members tend to be pretty loyal to their sitting MP unless he/she is way out of line or utterly useless - or unless the local party is near-moribund so that a Corbynista influx can dominate. The fact that Graham Stringer survived a Momentum no-confidence vote despite voting with the Tories on Brexit supports this....and how many MPs have been deselected in the 3 years since Corbyn became leader? Zero, isn't it? I imagine that Momentum will concentrate on getting mandatory reselection for all Labour MPs/candidates as a policy.

 

 

Anyway, so much for minor ructions in the Opposition. What about the actual party of Government, dealing with the critical moment of the biggest issue for decades?

Is it 80 Tory MPs who are openly saying they'll vote down the PMs agreed Brexit policy....at the precise moment when she's trying to negotiate it with the EU? You utterly condemn such treasonous treachery, I presume?

Then this same bunch of right-wing extremists cancels the announcement of their alternative policy. Never mind presenting their alternative policy for public analysis, they won't even share their brilliant plans with their party colleagues. They mumble about not having the civil service resources behind their plans (i.e. they know experts will rip their plans to shreds) yet crow about gaining a tactical advantage against the leadership of their own party by not revealing their plans....as if cynically seeking tactical advantage in attacking their own party leadership at a critical moment in negotiations is a great reason for refusing to share your plans on such a massive issue. You condemn their cynical, anti-democratic, unpatriotic actions, I'm sure? 

[Buce]

'Tens of thousands' of jobs at risk, Jaguar Land Rover boss tells PM

Ralf Speth tells Theresa May he cannot be sure any of firm’s plants in Britain will continue to operate after Brexit

Britain’s biggest car manufacturer, Jaguar Land Rover, has launched a blistering attack on Theresa May’s Brexit plans, saying “tens of thousands” of jobs in the car industry could be lost if the UK crashed out without a deal.

Ralf Speth, the company’s chief executive, told the prime minister that he could not say for certain that any of the automative giant’s manufacturing plants in Britain, which employ 40,000 people, could continue to operate after Brexit day.

As May prepared to take to the stage herself, he told a major Birmingham car industry summit that the firm, one of the country’s biggest exporters by value, would not be able to continue making cars if the motorways to and from Dover became a carpark.

 

In a stark warning to the government as it entered the final round of Brexit negotiations with Brussels, he said that friction at the border could put production in jeopardy at a cost of £60m a day.

In an ominous passage, he said that it was cheaper to make cars in Slovakia than it currently was in Britain. He added: “What decisions will we be forced to make, if Brexit means not merely that costs go up, but that we cannot physically build cars on time and on budget in the UK?”

He warned: “Six months from Brexit and uncertainty means that many companies are being forced to make decisions about their businesses that will not be reversed, whatever the outcome, just to survive.”

Under current estimates a hard Brexit would cost the company £1.2bn a year.

[Guest MattP]

12 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

"Great to see the motion overturned" against "that moron" in Canterbury?! Make your mind up, Matt... 

 

Don't worry. These minor inconsistencies occur when you're constantly spewing out cynical posts lambasting the Left as a propagandist for some ill-defined murky crevice of the Right. 

 

"What even made them do it?" "How can something like that even get to that point?"..... Spare us the fake bewilderment, please. 

A couple of dimwitted Corbyn cult members thought they'd ride into battle for St. Jeremy. Pretty amateurishly, given the ease with which they seem to have been slapped down - can't have canvassed much support beforehand.

 

I've not been an active party member for many years but I think the local system is more or less unchanged: each ward meeting appoints delegates to the GMC, the main decision-making body at constituency level (though some use all-members meetings, apparently). So, it seems that a couple of over-enthusiastic, under-prepared Corbynista delegates or members tabled a censure motion - and were slapped down as they lacked the local support to get it passed.

 

I'm not naive. A couple of MPs have already been censured, Frank Field walked before he could be pushed & I presume Kate Hoey is for the high jump sooner rather than later, possibly 1 or 2 more. Maybe you're right in your belief - or your hope (let's be honest) - that a lot more than a handful of MPs will be deselected. But I'm not sure you are. If the Corbynistas go after Moderates en masse, there'll be a full-scale civil war within the party - and they might lose a lot of those deselection battles, anyway, as most longstanding party members tend to be pretty loyal to their sitting MP unless he/she is way out of line or utterly useless - or unless the local party is near-moribund so that a Corbynista influx can dominate. The fact that Graham Stringer survived a Momentum no-confidence vote despite voting with the Tories on Brexit supports this....and how many MPs have been deselected in the 3 years since Corbyn became leader? Zero, isn't it? I imagine that Momentum will concentrate on getting mandatory reselection for all Labour MPs/candidates as a policy.

 

 

Anyway, so much for minor ructions in the Opposition. What about the actual party of Government, dealing with the critical moment of the biggest issue for decades?

Is it 80 Tory MPs who are openly saying they'll vote down the PMs agreed Brexit policy....at the precise moment when she's trying to negotiate it with the EU? You utterly condemn such treasonous treachery, I presume?

Then this same bunch of right-wing extremists cancels the announcement of their alternative policy. Never mind presenting their alternative policy for public analysis, they won't even share their brilliant plans with their party colleagues. They mumble about not having the civil service resources behind their plans (i.e. they know experts will rip their plans to shreds) yet crow about gaining a tactical advantage against the leadership of their own party by not revealing their plans....as if cynically seeking tactical advantage in attacking their own party leadership at a critical moment in negotiations is a great reason for refusing to share your plans on such a massive issue. You condemn their cynical, anti-democratic, unpatriotic actions, I'm sure? 

I can't actually ever remember having heard of Rosie Duffield so no idea why I referred to her as that, a quick glance at the wiki page doesn't really reveal much either, a hypocrite no doubt given the grammar schools position, maybe I was talking about Emma Dent-Coad and got Canterbury and Kensington mixed up (I certainly can't can't be arsed to go check) - anyway, point still stands, a motion against someone for attending an anti-semitism demonstration is riduclous and that could only happen in one party these days.

 

I certainly don't hope to see moderate Labour MP's get the chop (well maybe a couple), I think they are on course to win the next election and I would want as many of them in parliament as possible to try and mitigate the more radical side, we could be looking at a cabinet with people like Chris Williamson in it by the time all this nonsense is over.

 

As for the 80 MP's - I think they are being absolutely ridiculous if they are going to vote this down without offering up any plan of their own, I'm sure that actually know this as well, from what it looks like, certainly according to Barnier from what I read yesterday, a deal does look set to be done that can be brought back to the house to vote on - they will now have to put up or shut up, if they vote it down without an extremely coherant alternative they'll even lose support amongst their own members. Judging by the leaks we had from that kopkfino posted it wasn't there yet.

 

I still think she's going to manage to get Chequers through the house with opposition support.

[Strokes]

7 minutes ago, MattP said:

I can't actually ever remember having heard of Rosie Duffield so no idea why I referred to her as that, a quick glance at the wiki page doesn't really reveal much either, a hypocrite no doubt given the grammar schools position, maybe I was talking about Emma Dent-Coad and got Canterbury and Kensington mixed up (I certainly can't can't be arsed to go check) - anyway, point still stands, a motion against someone for attending an anti-semitism demonstration is riduclous and that could only happen in one party these days.

 

I certainly don't hope to see moderate Labour MP's get the chop (well maybe a couple), I think they are on course to win the next election and I would want as many of them in parliament as possible to try and mitigate the more radical side, we could be looking at a cabinet with people like Chris Williamson in it by the time all this nonsense is over.

 

As for the 80 MP's - I think they are being absolutely ridiculous if they are going to vote this down without offering up any plan of their own, I'm sure that actually know this as well, from what it looks like, certainly according to Barnier from what I read yesterday, a deal does look set to be done that can be brought back to the house to vote on - they will now have to put up or shut up, if they vote it down without an extremely coherant alternative they'll even lose support amongst their own members. Judging by the leaks we had from that kopkfino posted it wasn't there yet.

 

I still think she's going to manage to get Chequers through the house with opposition support.

Whether you agree or disagree with chequers, like or loathe May. You have to admire her resilience in all this.

[Guest MattP]

5 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Whether you agree or disagree with chequers, like or loathe May. You have to admire her resilience in all this.

I have no idea how she has done it to be honest. She lacks many things but determination and resolve are certainly there.

[Izzy]

4 hours ago, Innovindil said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45481485

 

FeelsGoodMan. 

It's such a shame @Rogstanley and @toddybad are no longer with us to share the good news 

[Izzy]

8 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Whether you agree or disagree with chequers, like or loathe May. You have to admire her resilience in all this.

 

1 minute ago, MattP said:

I have no idea how she has done it to be honest. She lacks many things but determination and resolve are certainly there.

I told everyone that she'd eventually come out the other end triumphant 

 

Nobody listened 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

'Tens of thousands' of jobs at risk, Jaguar Land Rover boss tells PM

Ralf Speth tells Theresa May he cannot be sure any of firm’s plants in Britain will continue to operate after Brexit

Britain’s biggest car manufacturer, Jaguar Land Rover, has launched a blistering attack on Theresa May’s Brexit plans, saying “tens of thousands” of jobs in the car industry could be lost if the UK crashed out without a deal.

Ralf Speth, the company’s chief executive, told the prime minister that he could not say for certain that any of the automative giant’s manufacturing plants in Britain, which employ 40,000 people, could continue to operate after Brexit day.

As May prepared to take to the stage herself, he told a major Birmingham car industry summit that the firm, one of the country’s biggest exporters by value, would not be able to continue making cars if the motorways to and from Dover became a carpark.

 

In a stark warning to the government as it entered the final round of Brexit negotiations with Brussels, he said that friction at the border could put production in jeopardy at a cost of £60m a day.

In an ominous passage, he said that it was cheaper to make cars in Slovakia than it currently was in Britain. He added: “What decisions will we be forced to make, if Brexit means not merely that costs go up, but that we cannot physically build cars on time and on budget in the UK?”

He warned: “Six months from Brexit and uncertainty means that many companies are being forced to make decisions about their businesses that will not be reversed, whatever the outcome, just to survive.”

Under current estimates a hard Brexit would cost the company £1.2bn a year.

I'm sure those tens of thousands of people will understand. In half a century, when we're being told we can finally judge the success of this, they'll look back and laugh...

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

I'm sure those tens of thousands of people will understand. In half a century, when we're being told we can finally judge the success of this, they'll look back and laugh...

 

It's ok, there'll be plenty of jobs picking fruit and emptying bedpans when all those damn foreigners have gone home.

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

It's ok, there'll be plenty of jobs picking fruit and emptying bedpans when all those damn foreigners have gone home.

That's the spirit. 

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

It's ok, there'll be plenty of jobs picking fruit and emptying bedpans when all those damn foreigners have gone home.

Finally you are getting it. If not we'll force the prisoners to do it.

[Buce]

13 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

That's the spirit. 

 

13 minutes ago, MattP said:

Finally you are getting it. If not we'll force the prisoners to do it.

 

Sure.

 

What more could a skilled man wish for?

[Guest MattP]

21 minutes ago, Buce said:

Sure.

 

What more could a skilled man wish for?

Less foreigners. 

[Buce]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Less foreigners. 

 

Yep. 

 

I’m sure being surrounded by his Anglo-Saxon colleagues will be of great comfort to hin when the bank repossesses his house. 

[Countryfox]

 

In a similar vein ...   the news on at the moment is speaking to home builders who are pointing out that if they lose East Europeans they will struggle to replace them ....   or do they really mean that it will cost them a few more bob to get British workers to do the job ...   and by the way ...   have you ever heard of a hard up builder ...    nah, me neither.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Brexit appears to have driven a massive wedge between those for and against. Not the political division that we have seen in the past, but a real hatred very much apparent, between the two factions. It is very sad that this has come to pass, and even members of the same household are waging a war of words, in many cases. (my partner's son who now lives with us, refuses to wash my dishes, so I in turn, refuse to make him hot drinks), all very ridiculous, but this illustrates the depth of feeling.

 

Roll on next March.

[davieG]

9 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said:

Brexit appears to have driven a massive wedge between those for and against. Not the political division that we have seen in the past, but a real hatred very much apparent, between the two factions. It is very sad that this has come to pass, and even members of the same household are waging a war of words, in many cases. (my partner's son who now lives with us, refuses to wash my dishes, so I in turn, refuse to make him hot drinks), all very ridiculous, but this illustrates the depth of feeling.

 

Roll on next March.

You should set an example then rise above it and make him a drink show him that it doesn't have to get personal when you disagree on political solutions assuming they aren't extreme or advocate violence.

[davieG]

https://global.handelsblatt.com/opinion/why-german-industry-must-stop-a-no-deal-brexit-962261

 

Why German industry must stop a hard Brexit
German companies must prevent a hard Brexit. It's in their own interest: it would have a worse impact on the German economy than a trade war with the US.

By
Wolfgang Münchau
Published on
September 11, 2018 4:50 pm
main 62236067 picture-alliance dpa dpaweb-British border trucks waiting in line Brexit Britain EU UK trade Germany Wolfgang Muenchau Munchau
Hard Brexit, loooong lines. Source: picture-alliance/DPA/dpaweb
It’s like turkeys voting for Christmas, as the British would say. I can understand why Angela Merkel views the Brexit negotiations from a purely political standpoint. In political terms, it’s important that there should be no customs border within Ireland. But German industry has other interests and should pursue them.

Germany’s trade surplus with Britain amounts to some €50 billion ($58 million) per year. It’s Germany’s biggest bilateral surplus with any other country. For German industry, a hard Brexit wouldn’t just be a tremendous misfortune — it would have a worse impact on the German economy than a trade war with the US.

The likelihood of a hard Brexit has increased dramatically in recent months. The border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland has become an unsurmountable obstacle in the negotiations. The EU is insisting on a provision that the Commission wants to take effect if no technical or political solution is found. It would give Northern Ireland continued membership of the single market and customs union.

That would mean either that there would be a customs border between Northern Ireland and Britain or that Britain as a whole would have to remain in the EU’s customs union. Theresa May’s government rejects both. It wants a virtual customs union. The technology required for that has yet to be invented. The EU doesn’t like the proposal. But its chief negotiator Michel Barnier wants to continue talking with the British.

Missing the complexity
There’s no room in this column to list all the problems that Theresa May’s proposal would entail. But from the point of view of German industry, the proposal isn’t that bad. It would keep tariff-free trade. The argument that it would explode the single market is a massive distortion. The single market, its rules and arbitration mechanism would remain in force unchanged.

German industry has a fundamental interest in a clever compromise being reached. It was a pointless step by the BDI German industry association to call on the British government to change its position. The British government won’t listen to a German lobbyist. But the German government would be more likely to.

I also see a danger that Germany isn’t grasping the complexity of the political situation in Britain. British politics has three pro-European factions that are locked in mutual enmity: the first group consists of the hard pro-Europeans who reject any compromise in the hope of getting a second referendum. Polls regularly show there’s a majority for remaining but they did before the last referendum as well. And there are polls that show the opposite.

The second group consists largely of Conservatives who support the Prime Minister. And the third wants a customs union plus membership of the European Economic Area, perhaps on a temporary basis.

If the EU sticks to its red lines some of these pro-Europeans together with the supporters of a hard Brexit would vote against the treaty. If the House of Commons rejects the agreement there will very likely be a hard Brexit.

A deal that guarantees free trade in goods isn’t as good as full membership but significantly better than no deal. That’s why from the point of view of German industry it’s irrational to support a policy that increases the risk of a hard Brexit. Of all the Brexit positions in Britain, the one held by Prime minister May is the best from Germany’s point of view — or at least good enough. She wants to protect trade and she wants close cooperation with the EU on security.

Given the political situation in Britain, anyone who continues to call for a hard stance in talks with the British government doesn’t have Germany’s economic interests at heart or is behaving like those turkeys voting for Christmas, bereft of the facts but full of gusto.

[l444ry]

 

Edited 11 September 2018 by l444ry

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

A point I made many months ago, but got derided on. I didn't put it across this well though. I still prefer a no deal over the Chequers deal, which is dreadful, and so very wishy-washy.

[Guest MattP]

Now standing in the street shouting at his kids.

https://order-order.com/2018/09/12/police-called-moggs-children-nanny-ambushed-leftist-protest-outside-home/