Technology, Science and the Environment.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

The thing that's so bleak about this for me is that I sat in lectures at university learning about this a quarter of a century ago, and pretty much everything that's happening now was predicted then and in about the same time frame as well

 

 

Yep. Frustrating as all hell.

 

But that is the human tendency to not look beyond the horizon in terms of space and time for you.

[Pliskin]

1 hour ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

The thing that's so bleak about this for me is that I sat in lectures at university learning about this a quarter of a century ago, and pretty much everything that's happening now was predicted then and in about the same time frame as well

 

 

Exactly this. @leicsmac summed things up well in an earlier post too. 
 

We’re simply sleep walking into destruction. In one breath we have companies like aggregate saying we need to achieve carbon zero, but before we do that, let’s just dig up a further so many million tonnes of earth…

 

We don’t stop, we never stop and we can’t stop. There’s an excuse for everything, it’s a we will get round to it attitude, but we need to do this first……

 

Like you said, I was learning about this stuff in school geography in 2003! And the information has been there prior to that….

 

In short, collectively not enough people give a shit, and unfortunately money, blinds their vision so they’re not willing to see the damage that is being caused.

 

Action really needs to be taken now, not in 5 years, now… otherwise there won’t be a chance to do so.  

[David Guiza]

I fully appreciate that the largest and most significant impact will always be nations as a whole, in particular those who are the most destructive, however there remains a countless lack of responsibility in some who should know better.

 

As an example, fast fashion as a trend. I work with a woman who purchases what seems like a never ending supply of clothes of from some of the biggest offenders, Boohoo, Pretty Little Thing, etc, so one day I pulled her up on it in a semi-joking way, as we get on perfectly well, and just pointed out that they have a sustainability of score of literally zero and that's without mentioning the human rights issues that are associated with them. She said that she knew they were awful but 'couldn't help herself' and that she was trying to cut down; cue last week where I walked past her desk at lunch and she told me all about the story in the news regarding the minimum wage scandal to which I gave a standard response. The next day she was on the effing website again buying more clothes. My wife has ranted at me before as well about how a lot of these companies advertise through Love Island, so it's no great surprise that they continue to thrive. 

 

As above, I appreciate that eating vegan/veggie a few days a week and shopping more sustainably isn't going to touch the sides of the likes of the US and China aren't on board, but the miniscule amount of difference that it makes is still worthwhile. 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Pliskin said:

Exactly this. @leicsmac summed things up well in an earlier post too. 
 

We’re simply sleep walking into destruction. In one breath we have companies like aggregate saying we need to achieve carbon zero, but before we do that, let’s just dig up a further so many million tonnes of earth…

 

We don’t stop, we never stop and we can’t stop. There’s an excuse for everything, it’s a we will get round to it attitude, but we need to do this first……

 

Like you said, I was learning about this stuff in school geography in 2003! And the information has been there prior to that….

 

In short, collectively not enough people give a shit, and unfortunately money, blinds their vision so they’re not willing to see the damage that is being caused.

 

Action really needs to be taken now, not in 5 years, now… otherwise there won’t be a chance to do so.  

Agreed, too.

 

And for what it's worth I have been saying this pretty much since I first arrived on this forum ten years ago.

 

The truly tragic thing is that as an animal that is seemingly more self aware of its own flaws than others, all of this comes down to us choosing our own dreadful fate rather than it being a matter of animal instinct simply because it makes things easier now. 

Edited 9 August 2021 by leicsmac

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, Pliskin said:

Exactly this. @leicsmac summed things up well in an earlier post too. 
 

We’re simply sleep walking into destruction. In one breath we have companies like aggregate saying we need to achieve carbon zero, but before we do that, let’s just dig up a further so many million tonnes of earth…

 

We don’t stop, we never stop and we can’t stop. There’s an excuse for everything, it’s a we will get round to it attitude, but we need to do this first……

 

Like you said, I was learning about this stuff in school geography in 2003! And the information has been there prior to that….

 

In short, collectively not enough people give a shit, and unfortunately money, blinds their vision so they’re not willing to see the damage that is being caused.

 

Action really needs to be taken now, not in 5 years, now… otherwise there won’t be a chance to do so.  

Unless you can convince the Chinese and Americans to change their energy demands, and stopping the destruction of the Brazilian rain forests, the  earths lungs, which you won’t , whatever we do will make no difference. We recycle everything, allegedly, we don’t use coal anymore, our cars put out minuscule amounts of co2, industrial manufacture is nothing compared to 50-60 years ago, ok  we can reduce our plastic waste by going back to using glass bottles etc, but is that really a climate change issue? until you can convince everyone to play ball, we’re on a downwards trajectory. The whole problem stems from burning fossil fuels, and cutting down rain forests.

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Unless you can convince the Chinese and Americans to change their energy demands, and stopping the destruction of the Brazilian rain forests, the  earths lungs, which you won’t , whatever we do will make no difference. We recycle everything, allegedly, we don’t use coal anymore, our cars put out minuscule amounts of co2, industrial manufacture is nothing compared to 50-60 years ago, ok  we can reduce our plastic waste by going back to using glass bottles etc, but is that really a climate change issue? until you can convince everyone to play ball, we’re on a downwards trajectory. The whole problem stems from burning fossil fuels, and cutting down rain forests.

The last time I checked, the Americans were on board by and large and the Chinese might be (see above). The Brazilians are another matter, but hopefully Senhor Bolsanaro won't be around to get in the way for much longer.

 

In any case, if folks all bought into this kind of fatalism we may as well just fold our hands and bring it all to an end right now.

[Free Falling Foxes]

I reckon the average person doesn't  even give it a second thought - except to dismiss climate change.

This usually happens when there is a cold spell and folk say 'I thought there was supposed to be global warming?'

I've heard folk say 'Bring it on, nice sunny warm weather for a change'. When increasing temperatures are discussed.

Then there are those who say 'Is that all?' when it is reported global temperatures have risen by a degree.

 

These folk won't give a fig unless their house blew down, was engulfed in flames or had water lapping around their ankles. Even then they wouldn't put 2 and 2 together.

 

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

The last time I checked, the Americans were on board by and large and the Chinese might be (see above). The Brazilians are another matter, but hopefully Senhor Bolsanaro won't be around to get in the way for much longer.

 

In any case, if folks all bought into this kind of fatalism we may as well just fold our hands and bring it all to an end right now.

What is happening currently requires swift measures to prevent a catastrophe. The US does indeed use less fossil fuel than it did 10 years ago, problem is the numbers. They have cut down to 535 million tonnes per year from over a billion tonnes, at the height of coal production in this country, 1913, when we were burning our maximum amount of coal, we produced 250 million tonnes, so unless there’s some major change, doubt it, they could be using it for another 100 years. This year they have used 140 million tons in the first quarter, up 6%, so maybe someone’s telling a few porkies and the US are at their minimum they can use for their energy/steel production needs. 
 China may be on board, but their current coal usage is…..4.3 billion tons per year, and it’s not looking like stopping as they’ve just added another 40 gigawatts of coal produced electricity, 3 times more than anywhere else in the world. So yes, some people might think what these two nations are saying is great, the reality though, is not.

[leicsmac]

21 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

What is happening currently requires swift measures to prevent a catastrophe. The US does indeed use less fossil fuel than it did 10 years ago, problem is the numbers. They have cut down to 535 million tonnes per year from over a billion tonnes, at the height of coal production in this country, 1913, when we were burning our maximum amount of coal, we produced 250 million tonnes, so unless there’s some major change, doubt it, they could be using it for another 100 years. This year they have used 140 million tons in the first quarter, up 6%, so maybe someone’s telling a few porkies and the US are at their minimum they can use for their energy/steel production needs. 
 China may be on board, but their current coal usage is…..4.3 billion tons per year, and it’s not looking like stopping as they’ve just added another 40 gigawatts of coal produced electricity, 3 times more than anywhere else in the world. So yes, some people might think what these two nations are saying is great, the reality though, is not.

It may be that they can't or won't respond fast enough to help.

 

But even if it were close to certain that were the case, I still wouldn't be interesting in engaging them in a nihilistic race to the bottom and I'm not sure why anyone else would either.

[yorkie1999]

55 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

It may be that they can't or won't respond fast enough to help.

 

But even if it were close to certain that were the case, I still wouldn't be interesting in engaging them in a nihilistic race to the bottom and I'm not sure why anyone else would either.

Both these countries are increasing production/usage of coal, doesn’t that tell you something when they both say they will decrease their use of fossil fuels.

[lgfualol]

Quite horrific to read. It's like The Day After Tomorrow. Feel quite hopeless about it all.

[samlcfc]

Pretty depressing stuff to read, although humans are a selfless bunch collectively and can organise pretty effectively when the incentive is there.

 

Climate change is a hard one to compute personally. The incentive to ensure a long continuing environment which humans can happily live within seems a pretty big one on the face of it, but it is long-term and on the other hand, it feels like every other short term incentive acts to facilitate the trend towards a very problematic future. Everyone from your average person in the street, up to those at the top of corporations and governments seem to be tangled in this web of market forces which they can't reasonably pull away from in the short-term without vastly altering the way they exist. 

 

I guess we have to find a way to make short-term incentives work for our environment. Seems like a difficult one, where governments will have to step carefully to ensure they aren't given the boot.

 

I can't really see corporates leading the way, unless some huge breakthrough in technology made continued accelerated growth sustainable. You see corporates getting onboard with the occasional social justice movement, but only really it seems because they're the people they need to win over and the other crowds are already sufficiently invested. 

 

I remember reading a book which was a sort of thought experiment a while back, where they broadly considered four possible futures for humanity. One of those was a climate emergency enforced communism due to the required labour having to be utilised almost entirely to fix the environment. Probably not entirely realistic though!? One of the others was mass genocide orchestrated by the elite in order to ensure the status-quo, so the choices weren't great .

 

The availability of information over the internet will probably become pretty relevant in this as the issue becomes more urgent also. Spoken to plenty of people who don't believe the research, or don't believe it's a problem. Will be interesting to see how the discourse grows as it become more prominent year on year. Whilst reading online, I've also seen what appears to be growing amounts of people extremely worried about the viability of their future or that of their children. Seems to be hints of societal issues beyond that of how we continue existing and mental health issues to boot. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 9 August 2021 by samlcfc

[Pliskin]

I agree with the idea that the bid hitters need to make the real change, the ones who have the biggest impact on the environment. We can all do what we can to help, for example recycle more, ensure we’re frugal with energy usage at home, ensure we buy local produce…

 

One of the biggest contributors for me are supermarkets…. Because even switching to a plant based diet won’t really help, as most of our fruit and veg in supermarkets comes from overseas, I mean you don’t grow avocados in Kegworth….

 

Pointing fingers at various industries won’t help, what we really need is a collective change in attitude, everyone needs to sing from the same hymn sheet…. But the fact that climate change is disregarded by some is frightening. 
 

Countries are burning, animals are nearing extinction England is hitting silly temperatures in the summer and winter….. the weather extremes alone should be enough of a warning sign. 
 

I just don’t want it to get to the stage of a major natural disaster to make people realise, we’ve just spent the best part of a year and a bit in lockdown thanks to human negligence. You wouldn’t have thought the coffee would never have smelt so fresh wouldn’t you?  

[Kopfkino]

Sure am glad we have yet another anxiety-inducing report stating the bleeding obvious. Not had enough of them. 
 

Sure am glad there wasn’t a report published, or at least that garnered so many column inches, that offers realistic workable and implementable solutions that political pressure groups that aren’t populated by complete weirdos could use. That wouldn’t be at all helpful. 
 

Let’s be honest, our greatest hope in all this is China. Not only because they are currently the biggest problem but they can a)inspire a ‘cold war’ style race to green b)if they put their mind to something they can almost certainly create the solutions for the rest of us

Edited 9 August 2021 by Kopfkino

[leicsmac]

8 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

Both these countries are increasing production/usage of coal, doesn’t that tell you something when they both say they will decrease their use of fossil fuels.

The second part of my reply wrt a nihilistic race to the bottom still stands.

 

3 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

Sure am glad we have yet another anxiety-inducing report stating the bleeding obvious. Not had enough of them. 
 

Sure am glad there wasn’t a report published, or at least that garnered so many column inches, that offers realistic workable and implementable solutions that political pressure groups that aren’t populated by complete weirdos could use. That wouldn’t be at all helpful. 
 

Let’s be honest, our greatest hope in all this is China. Not only because they are currently the biggest problem but they can a)inspire a ‘cold war’ style race to green b)if they put their mind to something they can almost certainly create the solutions for the rest of us

With respect, could you be a bit more specific about exactly what you want here and who you want it from, Kopf? AFAIC the solutions are already out there and while tone is important I don't think that the quality of the messenger absolutely overshadows the message on this one.

[Pliskin]

9 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

Sure am glad we have yet another anxiety-inducing report stating the bleeding obvious. Not had enough of them. 
 

Sure am glad there wasn’t a report published, or at least that garnered so many column inches, that offers realistic workable and implementable solutions that political pressure groups that aren’t populated by complete weirdos could use. That wouldn’t be at all helpful. 
 

Let’s be honest, our greatest hope in all this is China. Not only because they are currently the biggest problem but they can a)inspire a ‘cold war’ style race to green b)if they put their mind to something they can almost certainly create the solutions for the rest of us

I think the governments of most countries can help. The easiest solution is they take the economic hit and start to change how each industry operates, especially food and construction. 
 

But you’re definitely right when you say there’s a solution….. when it comes to fishing for an example, I’m sure there’s a way we can use inland water sources just picking one out the air as an example, but ones the size of Rutland waters to develop an economical and sustainable fish farming method. Where it’s natural, to a degree ethical and produces little impact on the larger environment? 
 

Ideally we need to minimise what we take from the planet now, a ban on palm oil might help too? If we were to ban all products that use natural palm oil in their products that would have a major impact on companies that produce Nutella for example….

 

Just thinking of silly little things, but I’m sure there are changes we can make that will have a huge impact on the planets recovery. 
 

We have seen during the heights of lockdown how quickly the planet can recover if it is allowed too, imagine making major changes that would lessen the impact on the environment? 
 

But it boils down to one thing. Money. It’s now more essential to human life than water. And that will forever be our undoing. 

[yorkie1999]

6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

The second part of my reply wrt a nihilistic race to the bottom still stands.

 

With respect, could you be a bit more specific about exactly what you want here and who you want it from, Kopf? AFAIC the solutions are already out there and while tone is important I don't think that the quality of the messenger absolutely overshadows the message on this one.

Well, our government, and other governments slapping massive tariffs, or even stopping trade  with  China and America would be a start. China relies on its industrial output and consequential energy usage for its manufacturing and steel production and removing its market is going to force it to cut back on its need for fossil fuels, same as this country in the 60’s. 
  The main culprit to global warming is the burning of fossil fuels, it takes an awful lot of coal to produce steel for building trains, ships, industrial factories etc, if we can stop that, there wouldn’t be the need for massive power stations and then maybe our energy needs can be catered for with the supply from less damaging sources, such as wind power, solar power.

[LiberalFox]

Was wondering why the Independent Police Complaints Commission have been investigating climate change.

[Kopfkino]

7 hours ago, leicsmac said:

The second part of my reply wrt a nihilistic race to the bottom still stands.

 

With respect, could you be a bit more specific about exactly what you want here and who you want it from, Kopf? AFAIC the solutions are already out there and while tone is important I don't think that the quality of the messenger absolutely overshadows the message on this one.

We don’t though do we? We have some tools that we can use as part of some solutions but we don’t have actual solutions. Yeah sure electric cars exist, wind turbines exist, heat pumps exist but they’re not packaged in any kind of solution. Tools aren’t solutions.

 

For example, using what you might call an edge case, we don’t have the supply of nickel, cobalt, or lithium to supply expected demand for electric cars, let alone the what we’d need to really make a difference on transport quickly. Nor do we have a way to effectively recycle the batteries yet (a way to increase supply moving forward). Nor do we have a plan for how national grids can quickly expand their capacity to supply all this extra electricity.

 

And that’s in wealthy countries that have to be at the head of the game. We certainly don’t have solutions for greenifying Indonesia.

 

So we get these reports from different groups and lots of people say ‘that’s bad’ and lots environmentalists kick and scream and think it’s as simple as clicking their fingers, it’s just some nefarious folk blocking our path (obviously these are a large obstacle). We have lots of tools that can be used over time but not solutions. The best hope for me is a US/China race to lead the world on this but the US is consumed by inward facing MAGA shit rather than outward facing patriotism.

 

 

[leicsmac]

5 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

Well, our government, and other governments slapping massive tariffs, or even stopping trade  with  China and America would be a start. China relies on its industrial output and consequential energy usage for its manufacturing and steel production and removing its market is going to force it to cut back on its need for fossil fuels, same as this country in the 60’s. 
  The main culprit to global warming is the burning of fossil fuels, it takes an awful lot of coal to produce steel for building trains, ships, industrial factories etc, if we can stop that, there wouldn’t be the need for massive power stations and then maybe our energy needs can be catered for with the supply from less damaging sources, such as wind power, solar power.

I'm happy that the discussion has moved onto possible solutions.

 

I'd agree that such measures might not be a bad idea, but I think that China is now too big a player to be dictated to in that way solely. Leave the stick available, but also the carrot involving friendlier agreements and also one purely based on self-interest (it's not like they'd escape the consequences and they actually often think longer term than many places do) should be in play too.

 

 

4 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

We don’t though do we? We have some tools that we can use as part of some solutions but we don’t have actual solutions. Yeah sure electric cars exist, wind turbines exist, heat pumps exist but they’re not packaged in any kind of solution. Tools aren’t solutions.

 

For example, using what you might call an edge case, we don’t have the supply of nickel, cobalt, or lithium to supply expected demand for electric cars, let alone the what we’d need to really make a difference on transport quickly. Nor do we have a way to effectively recycle the batteries yet (a way to increase supply moving forward). Nor do we have a plan for how national grids can quickly expand their capacity to supply all this extra electricity.

 

And that’s in wealthy countries that have to be at the head of the game. We certainly don’t have solutions for greenifying Indonesia.

 

So we get these reports from different groups and lots of people say ‘that’s bad’ and lots environmentalists kick and scream and think it’s as simple as clicking their fingers, it’s just some nefarious folk blocking our path (obviously these are a large obstacle). We have lots of tools that can be used over time but not solutions. The best hope for me is a US/China race to lead the world on this but the US is consumed by inward facing MAGA shit rather than outward facing patriotism.

 

 

As always, your comments are fair.

 

Personally, I'm inclined to think that in this case the only thing keeping the tools we have from becoming solutions is often a matter of will. Of course it is a lot more difficult and complicated than simply snapping one's fingers, but it is possible. History has shown that necessity can be a huge driver of such advancement, and indeed you make the case for that here when you discuss the US and China.

 

It would just be nice to do it before things get so bad that the powers that be \decide there's absolutely no other choice.

[WigstonWanderer]

Scott Morrison on climate change 

 

Your fvcking house is burning down ya cvnt!!! Grab a hose and do something!

[yorkie1999]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I'm happy that the discussion has moved onto possible solutions.

 

I'd agree that such measures might not be a bad idea, but I think that China is now too big a player to be dictated to in that way solely. Leave the stick available, but also the carrot involving friendlier agreements and also one purely based on self-interest (it's not like they'd escape the consequences and they actually often think longer term than many places do) should be in play too.

 

 

As always, your comments are fair.

 

Personally, I'm inclined to think that in this case the only thing keeping the tools we have from becoming solutions is often a matter of will. Of course it is a lot more difficult and complicated than simply snapping one's fingers, but it is possible. History has shown that necessity can be a huge driver of such advancement, and indeed you make the case for that here when you discuss the US and China.

 

It would just be nice to do it before things get so bad that the powers that be \decide there's absolutely no other choice.

China is a weird one to figure out, it’s a communist nation driven by capitalist ideals and the problem is there’s literally billions of people who all want what the west has, and more, and it’s not going to stop. Technically they are now in front of everyone, the west’s fault, and resourcefully they are also ahead of everyone. The only real solutions is to force them to play ball, as you say not going to happen, or collectively isolate them by refusing to buy their goods. It seems everything on eBay, Amazon etc is made in China, we go down to Asda and buy socks and tee shirts etc, bargains, all made in China, Adidas, Nike trainers, made in China, the list is endless. If everyone cares so much about climate change and the root causes of climate change, just look at the label, see where it’s made, and if it says made in china(notice how it’s in English as well!!!, think about it) DON’T BUY IT!!! And that’s why I was initially giving you the facts, and not the solutions, because people need to understand that drinking through paper straws and chucking a few beer cans in the recycle bin ain’t going to make a jot of difference in the grand scheme of thing, all goes into landfill anyway, and has done for years, you only have to watch the bin collectors on Friday morning to realise everything you put into separate bins all gets chucked into the same truck.

[Pliskin]

There’s no secret that the bigger countries, are the ones who can pull us out of this mess. Basic science would suggest that if the bigger countries make the biggest changes that the world will feel the benefits. 
 

I think there are definitely ways we can make subtle changes that will make a big impact…. But I think it would probably mean taking a hit on the financial economy, which governments are terrified to do….. which seems utterly ridiculous because carry on like we are and we won’t need one. 

[leicsmac]

7 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

China is a weird one to figure out, it’s a communist nation driven by capitalist ideals and the problem is there’s literally billions of people who all want what the west has, and more, and it’s not going to stop. Technically they are now in front of everyone, the west’s fault, and resourcefully they are also ahead of everyone. The only real solutions is to force them to play ball, as you say not going to happen, or collectively isolate them by refusing to buy their goods. It seems everything on eBay, Amazon etc is made in China, we go down to Asda and buy socks and tee shirts etc, bargains, all made in China, Adidas, Nike trainers, made in China, the list is endless. If everyone cares so much about climate change and the root causes of climate change, just look at the label, see where it’s made, and if it says made in china(notice how it’s in English as well!!!, think about it) DON’T BUY IT!!! And that’s why I was initially giving you the facts, and not the solutions, because people need to understand that drinking through paper straws and chucking a few beer cans in the recycle bin ain’t going to make a jot of difference in the grand scheme of thing, all goes into landfill anyway, and has done for years, you only have to watch the bin collectors on Friday morning to realise everything you put into separate bins all gets chucked into the same truck.

TBH I can't see that happening without bad consequence either. Imagine how a Western nation would respond if China or someone else did that to them? At the very best it would be considered tension-raising interference, at the worst an de facto act of war.

 

No, the only way China joins the party here is of its own volition. And while they're not doing everything they can, the signs aren't all bad and I simply don't see an alternative that allows the necessary changes to happen. They're simply too big to coerce.

 

Also, I can understand why some folks that think what the UK public might or might not do in this instance is irrelevant but to me that just seems like an abdication of responsibility on a matter that concerns pretty much every human being on the planet. Even if someone doesn't contribute as much to climate change as someone else, that's not going to save them from the consequences and I'm really confused at people who seem to think that it will. So do the little things even if they don't mean much, but moreover advocate for your elected officials to encourage other officials in different places to do the right thing - that's where the power for real change lies. It's sure as hell better than doing nothing and waiting for humanity as a whole to answer to a much, much less forgiving power than other nation states.

 

 

Edited 11 August 2021 by leicsmac

[The Bear]

Kin hell! Right on our doorstep climate-wise. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58130893.amp