Croatia V England Semi Final Wednesday 11th July 19:00 KO

[Max Wall]

26 minutes ago, RumbleFox said:

Yeah, I agree with and understand this.  I can talk with my girlfriend for about an hour about how most England fans are reasonable and how most never really think we are gonna win and then the national (which airs in Scotland obviously) BBC news comes on and some nobber is covered in St George's crosses singing "Football's coming home" and the presenter says "WE are gonna win it" and I shake my head and have to end up just pretty much agreeing with her, haha.  What frustrates me is when I personally get tarred with the same brush (often from Celtic/Rangers fans without any sense of irony) when I am a pretty reasonable fan.  As I said 90% of the time it doesn't bother me but now and then I can't help but bite but usually regret it and you are right, the status and history of England makes it very hard to ever "be the victim" and English nationalism is often very ugly.  X

 

That's interesting. I lived in Aberdeen for 28 years and found Aberdeen and Dundee/Dundee Utd fans the worst.

Think they probably all can't stand us, just depends where you live as to who you think is worst. Do you live in Glasgow?

 

Got to say, I moved to Aberdeen in 1975 as a 7 year old kid, way before oil wealth brought people to the city. School wasn't much fun though wearing an England strip to every gym lesson probably didn't help my case. There weren't very many incomers at all in those days, let alone English people, so I have my parents to thank for my aptitude in fighting. 

[SouthStandUpperTier]

2 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

That's interesting. I lived in Aberdeen for 28 years and found Aberdeen and Dundee/Dundee Utd fans the worst.

Think they probably all can't stand us, just depends where you live as to who you think is worst. Do you live in Glasgow?

 

Got to say, I moved to Aberdeen in 1975 as a 7 year old kid, way before oil wealth brought people to the city. School wasn't much fun though wearing an England strip to every gym lesson probably didn't help my case. There weren't very many incomers at all in those days, let alone English people, so I have my parents to thank for my aptitude in fighting. 

Just out of interest Max, do you or did you pick up a Scottish accent or did you manage to resist?

[Max Wall]

4 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

Fair enough. I still find it slightly odd, though. If I was living in another country whose national team was performing well at a major tournament, I’m certain I would want them to do well. If I had friends and colleagues who were excited about how their team was doing at a World Cup or European Championship, I’d find it hard not to get caught up in it. Obviously I wouldn’t support them over England, but they’d probably become my second team.

 

I know it doesn’t always work the same way here. I have a Scottish friend, a nice guy, who has lived in England for 12 years. He’s married to an Englishwoman and has many close English friends and colleagues, and he clearly is very happy here. Yet when it comes to sport his hatred of England is so pathological it defies belief – I’ve never seen anything like it. He sometimes says to me, “you’d be the same if you lived in Scotland”, but that’s just the thing – I know for a fact that I wouldn’t. It's bizarre.

With respect, that's easy to say. When you are referred to pretty much constantly as English cnut (that happened more than you'd imagine as an adult as well as at school). Maybe I just am a cnut and that's the reason why. I don't think so though, it's a default setting for them, it's inbred up there and alcohol brings it out a lot.

 

As for supporting Scotland. Even by 1978, I wanted Scotland to lose every game. Pretty sad for a 10 year old, granted, but that's what experiencing a Scottish school as an English kid did for me. I'd like to say I've grown up but I haven't. I wouldn't want a Scottish team to win against anyone, period. I just can't see that changing. I don't feel the need to go onto Scottish forums to insult them about a result though.

Wales, I find much less hard to like and can take a reasonable view to their games. I guess that possibly wouldn't have been the case if I moved to Wales in 1975. 

[RumbleFox]

10 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

That's interesting. I lived in Aberdeen for 28 years and found Aberdeen and Dundee/Dundee Utd fans the worst.

Think they probably all can't stand us, just depends where you live as to who you think is worst. Do you live in Glasgow?

 

Got to say, I moved to Aberdeen in 1975 as a 7 year old kid, way before oil wealth brought people to the city. School wasn't much fun though wearing an England strip to every gym lesson probably didn't help my case. There weren't very many incomers at all in those days, let alone English people, so I have my parents to thank for my aptitude in fighting. 

Yeah live in Glasgow.  I was not so much saying that Celtic/Rangers fans are worse, moreso that it seems rich for them to talk about "football ethics" with the bile they spout at each other.  It just sticks in my throat a little more when they accuse England fans of any kind of bad behaviour as they are some of the worst fans I have met.  To be honest I enjoy the "banter" with a lot of Scottish folk and most of my friends and partner's family do it in a jokey way and on terms where we all in on the joke and like and respect each other.  What annoys me is not so much that most Scottish fans want England to lose (I get this and it is part of football in the same way that I want Derby to lose) but more that they justify their viewpoint with the "All England fans are twats and won't shut up about '66" when clearly, most England fans are OK.  I NEVER think we are going to win any game but I reserve the right to get excited when we do. 

Edited 10 July 2018 by RumbleFox

[Max Wall]

3 minutes ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Just out of interest Max, do you or did you pick up a Scottish accent or did you manage to resist?

No question it was Scottish when I left after 28 of my first 35 years on Earth spent there.

My girlfriend is Scottish and I unquestionably use northern Scottish words when just with her but my 'public' accent is very English now after 15 years in Somerset. The odd word slips by and some friend will say 'That sounded Scottish' but it's rare now.

[Max Wall]

1 minute ago, RumbleFox said:

Yeah live in Glasgow.  I was not so much saying that Celtic/Rangers fans are worse, moreso that it seems rich for them to talk about "football ethics" with the bile they spout at each other.  It just sticks in my throat a little more when they accuse England fans of any kind of bad behaviour as they are some of the worst fans I have met.  To be honest I enjoy the "banter" with a lot of Scottish folk and most of my friends and partner's family do it in a jokey way and on terms where we all in on the joke and like and respect each other.  What annoys me is not so much that most Scottish fans want England to lose (I get this and it is part of football in the same way that I want Derby to lose) but more that they justify their viewpoint with the "All England fans are twats and won't shut up about '66" when clearly, most England fans are OK.  I NEVER think we are going to win any game but I reserve the right to get excited when we do. 

 

Hahahaha.

 

I could speak to you all day about this. I have 30 years of pent up frustration . It does get the better of me at times.

Got to say, it used to take me weeks to get over England results up there. They mention our losses as much as the BBC mentions 1966. Now, I probably get over an England defeat within half an hour of the final whistle.

 

You have my sympathy for the times it's difficult. I found it extremely hard, maybe because I'm a pretty spiky character anyway.

I genuinely had to leave for my sanity  Probably going through school there and the decade in which I did so, made it so ingrained in me, kids can be right little wankas at times. 

 

Having said all that, the genuine, adult banter I do actually enjoy.

[SouthStandUpperTier]

4 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

As for supporting Scotland. Even by 1978, I wanted Scotland to lose every game.

Argentina '78 must have been hilarious for you though. Wasn't the whole of Scotland convinced they were going to win the World Cup that year? Ally's Army and all that guff? And they call us arrogant!

[RumbleFox]

1 minute ago, Max Wall said:

Hahahaha.

 

I could speak to you all day about this. I have 30 years of pent up frustration . It does get the better of me at times.

Got to say, it used to take me weeks to get over England results up there. They mention our losses as much as the BBC mentions 1966. Now, I probably get over an England defeat within half an hour of the final whistle.

 

You have my sympathy for the times it's difficult. I found it extremely hard, maybe because I'm a pretty spiky character anyway.

I genuinely had to leave for my sanity  Probably going through school there and the decade in which I did so, made it so ingrained in me, kids can be right little wankas at times. 

 

Having said all that, the genuine, adult banter I do actually enjoy.

Och, I love Scotland as I said before and feel "at home" here as much as I do when I go "home" to visit down south.  I moved here in my late 20s so maybe easier for me, I can imagine school was difficult.  Most the time it is fine and when I bite I kind of know I should just leave it but sometimes it is so hard.  I will just remain quiet and take the moral high ground and secretly love the shit out of it if we win.  X

[Blue ROI]

3 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

With respect, that's easy to say. When you are referred to pretty much constantly as English cnut (that happened more than you'd imagine as an adult as well as at school). Maybe I just am a cnut and that's the reason why. I don't think so though, it's a default setting for them, it's inbred up there and alcohol brings it out a lot.

 

As for supporting Scotland. Even by 1978, I wanted Scotland to lose every game. Pretty sad for a 10 year old, granted, but that's what experiencing a Scottish school as an English kid did for me. I'd like to say I've grown up but I haven't. I wouldn't want a Scottish team to win against anyone, period. I just can't see that changing. I don't feel the need to go onto Scottish forums to insult them about a result though.

Wales, I find much less hard to like and can take a reasonable view to their games. I guess that possibly wouldn't have been the case if I moved to Wales in 1975. 

Wouldn't have got much hassle in Ireland for it.

 

We had a few lads move over from England during the school days and they didn't get much flak for supporting their place of birth.

 

Can remember a Spurs fan with Irish parents who moved over around 2000 who in the local claimed to be as Irish as any of us much to everyone's amusement but when it came to England he was right there roaring his head off at matches. Didn't have any hang up about supporting England,The banter was great. In Steve McClaren style the night of England and Sweden in Germany 2006 he rang one of the lads in the bar gloating when England were 2-1 up about a great win only for Sweden to get a goal in injury time.

[Max Wall]

2 minutes ago, SouthStandUpperTier said:

Argentina '78 must have been hilarious for you though. Wasn't the whole of Scotland convinced they were going to win the World Cup that year? Ally's Army and all that guff? And they call us arrogant!

I've mentioned this before on FT somewhere. My brother (14) and me (10) were in a room full of teenage Scots for the Peru game.

We struggled to contain our delight. We'd already had a lot of abuse just for being English by that point.

This is where I get the Celts side of things though, they had been saying up there for months they were going to win it and it grated after a while. I can understand why constant coverage gets to the Scots/Welsh, it got to me.

I seem to remember most of the Scots storming out after they went behind with the remainder leaving once the 3rd Peru goal went in. By full time, only the two of us and two hardy Scots were left and one just got up and said 'Well. that's that ****ed' and went home. He'd summed it up in 4 words perfectly tbf.

 

This brings me onto the default point made that English football fans are arrogant. That was perfected by the Scots in 1978, they had an open bus tour before leaving for the tournament. I personally think all of the UK are the same when their team is doing well. As are most nations, we all get carried away.

[Koke]

The fact that Croatia have reached more World Cup semi finals than Spain ever have is extraordinary considering Croatia didn't even exist until 1991. And on top of that they have a population of 4 million  people. Unbelievable achievement for such a tiny nation.

[Max Wall]

7 minutes ago, Blue ROI said:

Wouldn't have got much hassle in Ireland for it.

 

We had a few lads move over from England during the school days and they didn't get much flak for supporting their place of birth.

 

Can remember a Spurs fan with Irish parents who moved over around 2000 who in the local claimed to be as Irish as any of us much to everyone's amusement but when it came to England he was right there roaring his head off at matches. Didn't have any hang up about supporting England,The banter was great. In Steve McClaren style the night of England and Sweden in Germany 2006 he rang one of the lads in the bar gloating when England were 2-1 up about a great win only for Sweden to get a goal in injury time.

I do find that very interesting.

Without going into historical reasons (plenty of countries have a historical beef with both England and Great Britain), who's to say who has had it worst among the home nations? England have been awful to each of the home countries and Ireland at various points down the years. My experience is that the nastiness is much worse in Scotland than Wales and I'll be honest, I wouldn't have a clue with regards to the Republic or Northern Ireland, but all of those countries can easily find reasons if they want to. Again, that's maybe just my view having schooled up there.

 

 

As for your mate gloating before the final whistle, that's a rookie mistake, deserved everything he got in my book 

[Finnegan]

47 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

Fair enough. I still find it slightly odd, though. If I was living in another country whose national team was performing well at a major tournament, I’m certain I would want them to do well. If I had friends and colleagues who were excited about how their team was doing at a World Cup or European Championship, I’d find it hard not to get caught up in it. Obviously I wouldn’t support them over England, but they’d probably become my second team.

 

I know it doesn’t always work the same way here. I have a Scottish friend, a nice guy, who has lived in England for 12 years. He’s married to an Englishwoman and has many close English friends and colleagues, and he clearly is very happy here. Yet when it comes to sport his hatred of England is so pathological it defies belief – I’ve never seen anything like it. He sometimes says to me, “you’d be the same if you lived in Scotland”, but that’s just the thing – I know for a fact that I wouldn’t. It's bizarre.

 

I don't know what to tell you, really. If I lived in France or Belgium or Croatia I'd happily cheer on the team with my neighbours (unless I was English, Dutch or Serbian), it's very specifically to do with the Celtic/English relationship. 

 

Before you get up on the high horse though, I'd suggest you walk a mile in one of our shoes - myself, your Scottish friend, @Vacamion. Maybe you really are so laid back and placid you'd grant the Scots no ill will in sport if you lived there, maybe you really would cheer for them, personally I think you shouldn't presume to judge your friend and should accept he's got more experience than you when he estimates how you'd react. 

 

My reservations about wanting England to do well aren't based on resentment, jealousy and a rivalry alone - they're based on two decades of merciless piss taking and abuse from English friends, coworkers, strangers and anyone else that clocks I'm Welsh. Football, rugby, whatever, we lose at something you can bet I'm going to hear about it in surround sound. I don't have any Welsh friends or colleagues to sympathise with me, just wall to wall mocking. 

 

Ask @Vacamion what his reception will be like in work on Thursday if Croatia humiliate England.

 

Of course its about 95% harmless banter and you learn to shrug it off and give as much, if not more to compensate, back in return and that's the nature of sport. 

 

It's not unique to us celts having a chip on our shoulder. 

 

Why do you think Leicester fans in Hinckley hate Cov more or in Loughborough hate Forest more? How do you imagine it is being a Liverpool fan in Manchester when they lose at Old Trafford? Or a Castleford fan living in Leeds when the Rhinos won the Super League final last year? 

 

Even halfway across the world, there are Aussies living in New Zealand getting hell every Bledisloe defeat or whatever other rivalry you can dream up. 

 

It's very easy to say you wouldn't give a **** living in England surrounded by your own, where the only Scots you know are vastly outnumbered and - in your opinion - have an inexplicable chip on the shoulder. 

Edited 10 July 2018 by Finnegan

[Max Wall]

8 minutes ago, Koke said:

The fact that Croatia have reached more World Cup semi finals than Spain ever have is extraordinary considering Croatia didn't even exist until 1991. And on top of that they have a population of 4 million  people. Unbelievable achievement for such a tiny nation.

It is a pretty incredible record. I always remember the old Yugoslavian teams being incredibly skilled though temperament used to often be their downfall.

Spain were such underachievers for years though (bit like England really). Still, a remarkable record for Croatia though, I agree.

[Max Wall]

5 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

I don't know what to tell you, really. If I lived in France or Belgium or Croatia I'd happily cheer on the team with my neighbours (unless I was English, Dutch or Serbian), it's very specifically to do with the Celtic/English relationship. 

 

Before you get up on the high horse though, I'd suggest you walk a mile in one of our shoes - myself, your Scottish friend, @Vacamion. Maybe you really are so laid back and placid you'd grant the Scots no ill will in sport if you lived there, maybe you really would cheer for them, personally I think you shouldn't presume to judge your friend and should accept he's got more experience than you when he estimates how you'd react. 

 

My reservations about wanting England to do well aren't based on resentment, jealousy and a rivalry alone - they're based on two decades of merciless piss taking and abuse from English friends, coworkers, strangers and anyone else that clocks I'm Welsh. Football, rugby, whatever, we lose at something you can bet I'm going to hear about it in surround sound. I don't have any Welsh friends or colleagues to sympathise with me, just wall to wall mocking. 

 

Ask @Vacamion what his reception will be like in work on Thursday if Croatia humiliate England.

 

Of course its about 95% harmless banter and you learn to shrug it off and give as much, if not more to compensate, back in return and that's the nature of sport. 

 

It's not unique to us celts having a chip on our shoulder. 

 

Why do you think Leicester fans in Hinckley hate Cov more or in Loughborough hate Forest more? How do you imagine it is being a Liverpool fan in Manchester when they lose at Old Trafford? Or a Castleford fan living in Leeds when the Rhinos won the Super League final last year? 

 

Even halfway across the world, there are Aussies living in New Zealand getting hell every Bledisloe defeat or whatever other rivalry you can dream up. 

 

It's very easy to say you wouldn't give a **** living in England surrounded by your own, where the only Scots you know are vastly outnumbered and - in your opinion - have an inexplicable chip on the shoulder. 

 

I agree. I defy an English bloke to live in Scotland for 20 years and still want Scotland to win a football match.

Even Methuselah probably isn't grown up enough to do that.

[Finnegan]

58 minutes ago, Max Wall said:

This is a fair enough point. My best friend is Scottish, as are a lot of my friends having lived there for a long time.

I used to watch England games with my mate in Scotland and it was obvious to see he wanted England to win, when with me at least.

However, since moving to Middlesborough 20 years ago, he absolutely detests the England football team. 

 

 

 

I've said before and I do believe that if I'd never left Wales, I'd give much, much fewer ****s about England than I do living here. 

 

It'd barely register as a rivalry. 

 

I've old Welsh mates in Bridgend who typically support Man Utd and whilst they'd never have cheered for England, they don't mind you winning if Scholes or Neville or Carrick or Rashford or Jones or whoever is doing well. They mostly don't give a **** at all. 

 

[ScouseFox]

wales is shit 

[Max Wall]

34 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

I've said before and I do believe that if I'd never left Wales, I'd give much, much fewer ****s about England than I do living here. 

 

It'd barely register as a rivalry. 

 

I've old Welsh mates in Bridgend who typically support Man Utd and whilst they'd never have cheered for England, they don't mind you winning if Scholes or Neville or Carrick or Rashford or Jones or whoever is doing well. They mostly don't give a **** at all. 

 

I'm sure you have explained this before on here but, given I'm 50 and you have over 40,000 posts, I reckon I'll expire before finding it myself. What's your Leicester City connection Finners? 

[Max Wall]

Just now, ScouseFox said:

wales is shit 

I simply cannot understand why the Celts don't like us. 

[Finnegan]

Just now, Max Wall said:

I'm sure you have explained this before on here but, given I'm 50 and you have over 40,000 posts, I reckon I'll expire before finding it myself. What's your Leicester City connection Finners? 

 

Moved to Leicester way back at primary school age and have mostly lived here since (brief 3 year spell in North London.)

 

Had little or no interest in football, only rugby, at the time. I knew who the Underwoods were but had never heard of Walsh, Joachim or even Iwan Roberts (who turned up about when I did funny enough!) at the time. 

 

My dad took me to Leicester Watford boxing day 1993 (4-4) and I never looked back. 

[Vacamion]

1 hour ago, Max Wall said:

I agree. I defy an English bloke to live in Scotland for 20 years and still want Scotland to win a football match.

Even Methuselah probably isn't grown up enough to do that.

 

Sorry to be THAT guy, but I generally support Scotland at football, unless they are playing England.  Not fervently, not joining in the songs, but kind of mildly wishing them well.  Maybe it’s because they’ve been pants most of my adult life.

 

Not at rugby, though.  I think it might be a class thing.  I’ve met a lot of public school educated Rugger Buggers from the East Coast of Scotland and they are generally insufferable. And my In-laws (West coasters, not public schooled) are all rugby fans who otherwise support Enfgland at most things, but hate us at rugby, so screw Scottish Rugby.

 

Anyway, I watched the Sweden game in mixed company at someone’s house at the weekend.  It was around half and half for and against England.  It was banter, it was quite a laugh. 

 

Having been here 24 years, I totally get why, being faced with UK wide media going football crazy and ninety twelve bits of footage of drunk people singing “It’s camming home” on the BBC “National” news, and mentions of “the whole nation” getting behind “the team” “we” and “us” etc that some Scots might get a bit antsy about it all.  UK media does sometimes seem to forget that there are other countries in the UK beside England.  

 

The way to solve it would be for them to get their own commentary and pundits, rather than having to put up with Englishmen, but, as with everything, there is a spectrum of reactions to this issue from mild irritation to painting their faces blue. 

 

I’m fairly relaxed about it.  The vast majority of what I’ve experienced up here is banter, which I can send back with topspin, if needed.

 

I’m a proud Englishman. I’ll get the piss taken at work by one or two people up here if we lose. I’ll probably wind a few colleagues up as the insufferable Englishman if we win. But it’s just a game. The world keeps turning and next week we will all have other stuff to worry about.

 

Edited 10 July 2018 by Vacamion

[Max Wall]

4 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

Sorry to be THAT guy, but I generally support Scotland at football, unless they are playing England.  Not fervently, not joining in the songs, but kind of mildly wishing them well.  Maybe it’s because they’ve been pants most of my adult life.

 

Not at rugby, though.  I think it might be a class thing.  I’ve met a lot of public school educated Rugger Buggers from the East Coast of Scotland and they are generally insufferable. And my In-laws (West coasters, not public schooled) are all rugby fans who otherwise support Enfgland at most things, but hate us at rugby, so screw Scottish Rugby.

 

Anyway, I watched the Sweden game in mixed company at someone’s house at the weekend.  It was around half and half for and against England.  It was banter, it was quite a laugh. 

 

Having been here 24 years, I totally get why, being faced with UK wide media going football crazy and ninety twelve bits of footage of drunk people singing “It’s camming home” on the BBC “National” news, and mentions of “the whole nation” getting behind “the team” “we” and “us” etc that some Scots might get a bit antsy about it all.  UK media does sometimes seem to forget that there are other countries in the UK beside England.  

 

The way to solve it would be for them to get their own commentary and pundits, rather than having to put up with Englishmen, but, as with everything, there is a spectrum of reactions to this issue from mild irritation to painting their faces blue. 

 

I’m fairly relaxed about it.  The vast majority of what I’ve experienced up here is banter, which I can send back with topspin, if needed.

 

I’m a proud Englishman. I’ll get the piss taken at work by one or two people up here if we lose. I’ll probably wind a few colleagues up as the insufferable Englishman if we win. But it’s just a game. The world keeps turning and next week we will all have other stuff to worry about.

 

 

Hey, no apology needed. I salute you as the bigger man. Pretty pissed off with you that you fvcked up the whole point of my post but I'll get over that. You English twat 

[Rusko187]

Enjoying all the other "home nations" getting upset that we've done well in a tournament, but wouldn't they be the same if it were there countries? When Wales did well in the Euros I wasn't wanting them to do badly (only when England played them).. just a shame that stance isn't reciprocated.

[Max Wall]

Just now, Rusko187 said:

Enjoying all the other "home nations" getting upset that we've done well in a tournament, but wouldn't they be the same if it were there countries? When Wales did well in the Euros I wasn't wanting them to do badly (only when England played them).. just a shame that stance isn't reciprocated.

There's about 10 posts on this page alone explaining peoples individual stance on why that's the case.

Englishmen in England, Englishmen in Scotland, Welshmen in England. It's pretty difficult to put yourself in someone else's shoes on this one. 

@rumblefox and @Vacamion both have slightly different views than mine given we've all spent a lengthy time in Scotland and @finnegan gives a decent Welshman in England perspective.

[bovril]

8 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

 

I do wish Maguire and Vardy the best and I don't (and I do mean this) wish most of you unhappiness. 

 

But I'll be all Croatia tomorrow, I don't think I can hack your press, pundits and "banter lads" (see celebrations thread) or @ScouseFox if you ever get to a world cup final let alone win one.

 

 

 

Narh but honestly, good luck to you. 

Mate I've spent a lot of time in Croatia and their football fans are generally proper neo-nazi ethno-nationalist mentalists who throw bananas, monkey chant and mow swastikas into their pitch. The country gets away with far more shit than any of its neighbours for some reason, maybe because people go on holiday there and it's all lovely beaches and shit. Plus Bilic is a cvnt for denying Laurent Blanc his World Cup final. And their FA is ridiculously corrupt and makes Italian football look clean. 

Buck your ideas up ffs and cheer on England.

Edited 10 July 2018 by bovril