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[Guest MattP]

36 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I only care about the winning lies. If remain lied, what's the effect of that now?

 

@Captain...

It shows you are liars and asks the question of why we should trust you again.

 

Why would any leave voter do that? 

[Leicester_Loyal]

2 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

@Leicester_Loyal just a thought. You're aiming at me the accusation that I only care about the leave lies because remain lost, well actually the opposite can be said of you, because you clearly don't care about any lies because leave won. If you'd lost you'd be complaining about remain lies just like I'm complaining about leave.

Remainers did lie, they just lost the vote.

 

It's a pointless debate, people aren't going to accept that others want to leave/remain, so will just throw shit at them.

 

We've had the vote, it's embarrassing that people want to have another one, which will leave us in the same situation. Leave lied, remain lied, end of.

[Facecloth]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

What is the plan you advocate here?

 

Revoking doesn't mean you can just reinvoke and decide - if anything this could look stable compared to the situation you could create.

 

I mean revoking could lead to a GE and we end up with Corbyn and his band of nutters, communists and anti-semites actually running the country. 

If we end up with Corbyn so be it, we vote him out in 5 years, it's not final, like Brexit.

 

I don't advocate any plan, I don't want brexit, but at the minute, nobody is backing anything. So let's take stock, stand back, reevaluate, and do this properly.

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Remainers did lie, they just lost the vote.

 

It's a pointless debate, people aren't going to accept that others want to leave/remain, so will just throw shit at them.

 

We've had the vote, it's embarrassing that people want to have another one, which will leave us in the same situation. Leave lied, remain lied, end of.

You're an idiot. Sorry you, clearly didn't take anything I said on board. 

[reynard]

40 minutes ago, Heathrow fox said:

Most people vote on their economic circumstances and that’s what the remain side totally forget.I get the impression that a lot of the remainers on this forum are fairly well paid office based and haven’t had to live with the direct consequences of freedom of movement.

 

H

 

 

Finally didn’t anyone consider the fact that some of the over 70s might have voted remain,to avoid potential downturns in their pensions.Again people vote with tend to vote with their wallets.

I'm not a well paid office worker and I consider the loss of freedom of movement to be the single greatest down side of all this. People talk a lot about immigration but we have had the chance to control non EU immigration for many many years and successive governments have failed to do so.

True freedom of movement was a great achievement and I wish we had had it in the late 1930s.

As to the over 70s. I can only speak for a small number of elderly clients my wife deals with in her care work. Out of 31, 29 voted to remain and 2 to leave. Of those who voted to remain several were ex army WW2 veterans who considered that remaining was what they wanted and the liberties which that encouraged was what they had fought for. None that I am aware of voted purely for financial reasons.

The elderly get a lot of blame for us leaving but there were a great number of young voters who didn't even bother to vote. At the time out son was a student and out of a house of 6 he was the only one who voted.

[Facecloth]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

It shows you are liars and asks the question of why we should trust you again.

 

Why would any leave voter do that? 

But remain have no power, so at the minute we've got one group of liars lording it over another. What I'm asking for is plan to be drawn up on how we'll leave and it be put to the people. If the plan is clear, concise, set in stone, then neither side can pedal falsehoods, only campaign on facts.

[Leicester_Loyal]

6 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

You're an idiot. Sorry you, clearly didn't take anything I said on board. 

I'm not the one who wants to go against a democratic vote. Yes by all means step back and re-evaluate, but you clearly just want to remain, and by kicking the can down the road you think you will achieve that.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

But remain have no power, so at the minute we've got one group of liars lording it over another. What I'm asking for is plan to be drawn up on how we'll leave and it be put to the people. If the plan is clear, concise, set in stone, then neither side can pedal falsehoods, only campaign on facts.

But how could that even happen? The "leave campaign" has never been a government and won't. 

 

I imagine Jeremy Corbyn has a different way to leave than anyone so has does that come back to the public? We had a GE in 2017 and that didn't solve it. How does your idea do this?

Edited 24 March 2019 by MattP

[davieG]

Just now, Facecloth said:

But remain have no power, so at the minute we've got one group of liars lording it over another. What I'm asking for is plan to be drawn up on how we'll leave and it be put to the people. If the plan is clear, concise, set in stone, then neither side can pedal falsehoods, only campaign on facts.

If it’s not actually lies it’ll be guesswork and conjecture mixed in with political bias.

We never get the truth about what might be from politicians because they don’t know.

People tend to vote based on their political leanings and will do all they can to make the story fit.

It’s mostly fairy tales.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I'm not the one who wants to go against a democratic vote. Yes by all means step back and re-evaluate, but you clearly just want to remain, and by kicking the can down the road you think you will achieve that.

Dont reply to anyone who throes personal abuse anyway. Pointless.

[Facecloth]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Dont reply to anyone who throes personal abuse anyway. Pointless.

I shouldn't have called him an idiot, but read your thought out replies to my post, and read his. It's like talking to Webbo again. I made the point he doesn't care about the lies because his side won, which the other side of the coin the me only caring about leave lies because I lost and he starts whittering on about nothing I actually said. 

Edited 24 March 2019 by Facecloth

[Leicester_Loyal]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Dont reply to anyone who throes personal abuse anyway. Pointless. 

It's all pointless anyway mate. Parliament have created this mess by not preparing for no deal, yet now we need to have another vote. If we had prepared for all scenarios like we should have from the start then we would be fine.

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

It's all pointless anyway mate. Parliament have created this mess by not preparing for no deal, yet now we need to have another vote. If we had prepared for all scenarios like we should have from the start then we would be fine.

So you agree, we need to step back and do this properly?

 

Leave by all means but let's do it right, with all the information to hand.

[Leicester_Loyal]

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

I shouldn't have called him an idiot, but read your thought out replies to my post, and read his. It's like talking to Webbo again. I made the point he doesn't care about the lies because his side won, which the other side of the coin the me only caring about leave lies because I lost and he starts whittering on about nothing I actually said.  

I quite clearly have said numerous times both sides lie. Remain lied about job losses, medicine shortages etc. Lie lied about NHS and 350m, some of the tarriffs etc. They both lie. At the end of the day we didn't choose to have a vote on it, we were given it, told our vote would matter and would be implimented. Now 3 years later you want another vote, which will probably end up with leave winning again, what then? Should we start the process again? Leavers aren't the ones who have caused this issue, it's the Government by assuming No Deal was never a possiblity.

[Leicester_Loyal]

Just now, Facecloth said:

So you agree, we need to step back and do this properly?

 

Leave by all means but let's do it right, with all the information to hand.

100%, but this should have been done in the 3 years, now time has run out. We can't keep extending A50, we need a plan and it needs sorting.

[Captain...]

3 hours ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I also didn't campaign when the party I voted for at the 2015 GE failed to gain a majority, because I accepted the result and was aware I was not in the voting majority.

Did you vote again 2 years later when May called another general election? 

 

Was that undemocratic?

 

The point of a people’s vote is actual democracy a choice based on facts, nobody voted for May’s deal, nobody voted for no deal nobody voted for Corbyn’s deal. None of these were on the table. The only reason remain should still be in the table is because so much has changed. Just because you voted leave doesn’t mean you voted to leave at any cost. If all the deals are rejected that doesn’t mean we should leave with no deal we should ask the country if that is what they voted for. If the majority vote leave with no deal fully aware of the consequences then we leave with no deal. At the moment a lot is being said and done in the name of the people so they should be asked.

[Facecloth]

Just now, Leicester_Loyal said:

I quite clearly have said numerous times both sides lie. Remain lied about job losses, medicine shortages etc. Lie lied about NHS and 350m, some of the tarriffs etc. They both lie. At the end of the day we didn't choose to have a vote on it, we were given it, told our vote would matter and would be implimented. Now 3 years later you want another vote, which will probably end up with leave winning again, what then? Should we start the process again? Leavers aren't the ones who have caused this issue, it's the Government by assuming No Deal was never a possiblity.

And my point was you don't care because you won, I care because I lost, it's not difficult to grasp is it.

 

I want a vote on an agreed deal with all the information available, against remain, with all the information available. And yes we start again. If you're going to do something, do right, not as quick as possible.

 

And you did cause the issue, by blindly voting for something that you would never know what it was actually going to look like.

[Facecloth]

3 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

100%, but this should have been done in the 3 years, now time has run out. We can't keep extending A50, we need a plan and it needs sorting.

Time hasn't run out, we don't have to anything by any particular point. If its wrong let's stop it and do it right. Nothing is final until it final.

[The Guvnor]

17 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

But remain have no power, so at the minute we've got one group of liars lording it over another. What I'm asking for is plan to be drawn up on how we'll leave and it be put to the people. If the plan is clear, concise, set in stone, then neither side can pedal falsehoods, only campaign on facts.

With all due respect the problem is we have a majority remain Parliament who don't want us to leave. 'The Plan', following the vindicative votes would be so far removed from leave voters reasons for voting leave in the first place that it cannot be put back to the Public against a remain vote. That is why I stated in my earlier post that (if) that was Parliaments final decision then FFS have the bollox to revoke Article 50 and collectively take respondibility for your actions.

[Captain...]

3 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

I quite clearly have said numerous times both sides lie. Remain lied about job losses, medicine shortages etc. Lie lied about NHS and 350m, some of the tarriffs etc. They both lie. At the end of the day we didn't choose to have a vote on it, we were given it, told our vote would matter and would be implimented. Now 3 years later you want another vote, which will probably end up with leave winning again, what then? Should we start the process again? Leavers aren't the ones who have caused this issue, it's the Government by assuming No Deal was never a possiblity.

The question should be May’s deal, No deal or Remain as they are the only options at the moment. If Corbyn can get a credible deal together then add that to the table. 

 

We should not just have another leave or remain vote.

[Leicester_Loyal]

Just now, Captain... said:

The question should be May’s deal, No deal or Remain as they are the only options at the moment. If Corbyn can get a credible deal together then add that to the table. 

 

We should not just have another leave or remain vote.

Splitting the leave vote down the middle will mean that Remain wins obviously. Add them together and then if they total more than remain pick the favoured response, I'd be fine with that.

 

As for Facecloth, no point arguing with him, leave voters are clearly the reason why this has happened. Give it another few replies he'll be implying we're all racist thugs just because we didn't vote the way he wants to.

[Captain...]

5 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Splitting the leave vote down the middle will mean that Remain wins obviously. Add them together and then if they total more than remain pick the favoured response, I'd be fine with that.

 

As for Facecloth, no point arguing with him, leave voters are clearly the reason why this has happened. Give it another few replies he'll be implying we're all racist thugs just because we didn't vote the way he wants to.

Transferrable voting or have rounds of voting eliminating the least popular. 

 

 

[Voll Blau]

15 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Splitting the leave vote down the middle will mean that Remain wins obviously. Add them together and then if they total more than remain pick the favoured response, I'd be fine with that.

 

As for Facecloth, no point arguing with him, leave voters are clearly the reason why this has happened. Give it another few replies he'll be implying we're all racist thugs just because we didn't vote the way he wants to.

Well, with all due respect, Leave voters *are* the reason why this has happened because there is no consensus on what they actually want. The only thing they wanted, according to the ballot paper, was to leave the EU. So surely leaving on any terms at all fulfils that?

 

And yet I know many people who voted Leave, a fair few who I'd consider very good mates, who if put in a room together would never in a million years agree on what the best course of action was or what represented a good deal.

 

Leave won, in my opinion, because it could be all things to all people. There's no real historical precedent for it and folks thought it was worth a punt because they liked what they heard - but they all had conflicting ideas of what would actually happen and what Brexit actually meant. Now we know what *will* actually happen, I think as much as anything that it's only fair to Leave voters to let them double check if this is what they actually want.

 

Whatever happens, there are going to be a huge proportion of the 52% who are going to end up feeling betrayed because the vision of Brexit they have in their own head is never going to come to fruition.

Edited 24 March 2019 by Voll Blau

[Facecloth]

10 minutes ago, Leicester_Loyal said:

Splitting the leave vote down the middle will mean that Remain wins obviously. Add them together and then if they total more than remain pick the favoured response, I'd be fine with that.

 

As for Facecloth, no point arguing with him, leave voters are clearly the reason why this has happened. Give it another few replies he'll be implying we're all racist thugs just because we didn't vote the way he wants to.

You predicting the future now? Shame you couldn't do that when you blindly voted leave with no clue of what leave would be! 

 

Your actions have consequences, you vited leave, that caused this even if indirectly, because you had no idea what what you were voting for would actually become.

 

And captain explains how the vote would work above.

[Legend_in_blue]

These leave voters.  "We voted to leave.  So leave.  And 17.4 million people agreed.  So leave."

 

That's all I'm getting from the leavers.  That's where the argument starts and ends.  It's all I've heard and read today.

 

No wonder we are in a mess.