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[Heathrow fox]

25 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

Not sure why you've said all this in response to my post agreeing with Voll Blau that Remain supporters lack understanding of Leave voters (and vice versa). 

 

Your stance is different to many other Leave posters (not that there's anything wrong with that). Other Brexiteer posters often say that they know Brexit will make us worse off economically, but that they're happy to be a bit poorer so as long as the UK regains more national sovereignty/control. You obviously expect to be better off due to freedom of movement ending.

 

In construction, maybe that'll work out for you if the sector holds up and there is less competition from EU migrant labour. Might not be so good for people working in other sectors like manufacturing or finance that need EU trade or markets, though. Then there's the indirect impact on construction if there's an economic downturn - fewer firms and individuals wanting construction work done. I hope it doesn't go bad for all our sakes - and my brother works in construction. Btw, I'm sure trade deals aren't top of most people's lists, but if we're trading on poorer terms, the obvious risk is that our firms will be less competitive, will lose business and people in this country will lose jobs or work or pay.....I hope not, again.

 

As for Remainers "screaming racist little Englander", I know you get a minority of idiots like that on both sides but very few on here. Worth noting that the MP (Jo Cox) who was murdered was a Remainer and that the MP told by police not to go home last weekend due to credible death threats was also a Remainer (Anna Soubry).....though I know there are idiots on both sides. Btw it's perfectly possible to be racist against white foreigners, not just against black/Asian - and for ethnic minorities to be racist.

 

I'm sure some Remainers on this forum have well-paid office jobs, but so do some Brexiteers - and I can think of Remainers who don't do office jobs. For the record, I now do white collar work self-employed from home, but did plenty of manual work when I was younger - and probably never earned as much as a brickie either then or in my current occupation!  I've spent plenty of time struggling financially week to week, and I don't reckon getting rid of a few Europeans will sort all that out.

 

Not sure what your point is about over-70s voting Remain to avoid downturns in their pensions? That would only happen if Brexit harmed the economy or public finances, surely? It's not as if the EU pays people's pensions (apart from Nigel Farage's massive pension). Anyway, the vast majority of over-70s voted Leave...

Sorry Alf was agreeing with you but got carried away a bit ? I think I was just trying to point out that FOM is a capitalists dream and I still can’t fathom out why people on the left of centre cannot see the huge problems it can create.

 

The recent understandable slow down in EU migration has already had a positive effect.The rates have gone up(My patch anyway)It could be a coincidence.Its not the disaster that we were warned about though.Of course it could spiral downwards.Just trying to be positive.We could wake up tomorrow to discover that

one of the US banks has gone bust.Anything could happen.

 

Immigration has hardly had a look in since June 16.My fear is that it will come back with a vengeance if certain things happen.A pissed off chunk of the electorate who won’t bother voting again will be easy pickings for the far right.

 

 

 

 

 

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

You know exactly what you're doing Alf and you don't need me to explain it to you.

 

On the one hand, we are mocked for believing the words of a bus, on the other hand we're told that what the leave side campaigned on wasn't what we were voting for.

 

It is either one or the other, not both to suit your own agenda. 

 

Firstly, what Leave or Remain campaigned for is very much secondary. What we voted on is what was on the ballot paper.

 

Secondly, Leave campaigned on many things. Different individuals said different things. If you're claiming that Leave made it clear that we'd leave the Customs Union and the Single Market, that is simply not true.

 

Here's the Vote Leave web site as a guide: http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html

 

It mentions "saving £350m per week" for NHS, immigration, border control, trade deals, "our own laws", Turkey "joining the EU" etc.

 

It doesn't mention leaving the Single Market or Customs Union anywhere that I can see. You'd have thought the main Leave web site would have mentioned such an important policy? 

 

I accept that immigration was a key concern that needs to be addressed - but that could be addressed through existing EU measures/domestic legislation....though immigration from outside the EU continues to mushroom, and we need migrant labour in many sectors, at least in the short/medium-term). How the hell we voted Leave due to Turkey joining the EU when it isn't or to recover money that we're not paying, I don't know. The trade deals promise isn't going too well so far. There's no mandate to leave the Customs Union or the Single Market because (with the honourable exception of Gove) Leave dishonestly tried to cover up any such plans as a vote-loser. Since the referendum they've lied and pretended it was clear, when it wasn't......but even if they hadn't lied and dissembled, the only thing on the ballot paper was Leave/Remain. The only mandate is to Leave the EU, not to do it any particular way.

[Alf Bentley]

21 minutes ago, Heathrow fox said:

Sorry Alf was agreeing with you but got carried away a bit ? I think I was just trying to point out that FOM is a capitalists dream and I still can’t fathom out why people on the left of centre cannot see the huge problems it can create.

 

The recent understandable slow down in EU migration has already had a positive effect.The rates have gone up(My patch anyway)It could be a coincidence.Its not the disaster that we were warned about though.Of course it could spiral downwards.Just trying to be positive.We could wake up tomorrow to discover that

one of the US banks has gone bust.Anything could happen.

 

Immigration has hardly had a look in since June 16.My fear is that it will come back with a vengeance if certain things happen.A pissed off chunk of the electorate who won’t bother voting again will be easy pickings for the far right.

 

 

I'd agree that the Remain side under-estimated concern about excessive immigration - some of it unfounded, some of it justified, particularly in certain sectors. Although other sectors (health, social care, catering, agriculture/food processing) risk serious damage, at least in the short/medium-term, without such immigration.

 

Unfortunately, it's true that many Remain supporters lack understanding of these concerns as they're not directly affected in London, Bristol, Brighton, Cambridge, Edinburgh, York or wherever. However, it's also true that many of the problems that people suffer, that caused them to vote Leave in other areas have much more to do with years of austerity politics, industrial decay, insecure or poorly-paid employment, cuts to public services etc.

 

Yep, all sorts could happen - including economic problems triggered by a downturn in the EU, slowdown in China, US trade policies etc. I'm just concerned that we're making it more likely, not less likely that the UK will suffer in this way - and, as you say, that immigration/racism/Far Right will come back with a vengeance. If Brexit happens and people's lives don't improve, or if they even get much worse, there's going to be a lot of despair and anger out there....

[Grebfromgrebland]

So JCB who want brexit are meeting with Putin. There's a suprise. The same Putin who the UK are supposed to have sanctions against and who are openly murdering people in the UK. 

 

The same Putin interfering with our democracy.

 

This is why we need to vote again, shit like this emerges every day.

 

 

 

[urban.spaceman]

On 23/03/2019 at 18:48, MC Prussian said:

You know what I'm thinking when I watch these videos?

 

People clinging onto a greater belief, seeking group therapy, feeling strong in masses.

 

It used to be the Church, now it's Europe/the EU.

#groupthink

I find them all extremely weird. 

 

Next thing you know they’ll all be drinking KoolAid. 

[Strokes]

6 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

A little Brexit fact that is never mentioned and should be.....

 

More people voted Remain in the 2016 Referendum than have ever voted for any winning party at a UK election.

 

We hear a lot about the 17.4m who voted Leave, and rightly so. But we rarely hear about the 16.1m who voted Remain.

 

The message that I hear from uncompromising Hard Brexit / No Deal types is effectively: "We won. We can ignore you. We can dictate terms and do whatever we like. We can crush you".

 

There needs to be humility and compromise on BOTH sides....not just the narrow winners using an ultra-vague mandate to impose whatever they want.

 

 

I do agree with this Alf but it’s so hard to be magnanimous and non patronising when you are being labelled racist or think all the time.

[Jimothy]

9 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I do agree with this Alf but it’s so hard to be magnanimous and non patronising when you are being labelled racist or think all the time.

See that's really not true is it. What happens is someone points out that some leave voters voted on the immigration issue and you'd go "Oh so we're all racist are we"

 

The fact you spelt "thick" as "think" doesn't help back up the second part 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

See that's really not true is it. What happens is someone points out that some leave voters voted on the immigration issue and you'd go "Oh so we're all racist are we"

Mate be honest, plenty have said all leave voters are racist. I’ve seen it on this forum and all over social media.

1 minute ago, Facecloth said:

 

The fact you spelt "thick" as "think" doesn't help back up the second part 

How did I miss that?

In my defence, I’ve had a few celebratory beers this evening, my boy won his first race today. 

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

Mate be honest, plenty have said all leave voters are racist. I’ve seen it on this forum and all over social media.

How did I miss that?

In my defence, I’ve had a few celebratory beers this evening, my boy won his first race today. 

 

Racist.  

[Strokes]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Racist.  

I’m in no fit state to deal with you buce, piss off

 

[Beechey]

55 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

So JCB who want brexit are meeting with Putin. There's a suprise. The same Putin who the UK are supposed to have sanctions against and who are openly murdering people in the UK. 

 

The same Putin interfering with our democracy.

 

This is why we need to vote again, shit like this emerges every day.

 

 

 

... come on, stop spouting utter crap.

Here, from the EU's own website, is what the EU (incl. UK) is sanctioning within Russia:

• EU nationals and companies may no longer buy or sell new bonds, equity or similar financial instruments with a maturity exceeding 30 days, issued by:

• five major state-owned Russian banks;
• three major Russian energy companies;
• three major Russian defence companies;
• subsidiaries outside the EU of the entities above, and those acting on their behalf or at their direction.

• Assistance in relation to the issuing of such financial instruments is also prohibited.
• EU nationals and companies may also not provide loans with a maturity exceeding 30 days to the entities described above.
• Embargo on the import and export of arms and related material from/to Russia, covering all items on the EU common military list, with some exceptions.
• Prohibition on exports of dual use goods and technology for military use in Russia or to Russian military end-users, including all items in the EU list of dual use goods. Export of dual use goods to nine mixed end-users is also banned.
• Exports of certain energy-related equipment and technology to Russia are subject to prior authorisation by competent authorities of Member States. Export licenses will be denied if products are destined for oil exploration and production in waters deeper than 150 meters or in the offshore area north of the Arctic Circle, and projects that have the potential to produce oil from resources located in shale formations by way of hydraulic fracturing.
• The following services necessary for the abovementioned projects may not be supplied: drilling, well testing, logging and completion services and supply of specialised floating vessels.

https://europa.eu/newsroom/highlights/special-coverage/eu-sanctions-against-russia-over-ukraine-crisis_en

 

Anything else within Russia economically is fine to cooperate with.

Believe it or not, but JCB is not a state-owned company. The British government can't really direct it to not bid for contracts.

 

I dislike Putin as much as anyone else, but saying we need another referendum because ****ing JCB wants to meet with Putin is absolutely, stunningly stupid. If Putin hadn't closed the British Council in St Petersburg, the BC would likely be trying to push for this kind of arrangement!

[Jimothy]

22 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Mate be honest, plenty have said all leave voters are racist. I’ve seen it on this forum and all over social media.

How did I miss that?

In my defence, I’ve had a few celebratory beers this evening, my boy won his first race today. 

Be honest, someone might have said that, but in the most part it's of defensive reaction to anyone mentioning that people voted on immigration.

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Be honest, someone might have said that, but in the most part it's of defensive reaction to anyone mentioning that people voted on immigration.

I am being honest, I say d I agreed. Only that it was hard to show those traits when the opposite side could also be provoking.

[Guest Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

So JCB who want brexit are meeting with Putin. There's a suprise. The same Putin who the UK are supposed to have sanctions against and who are openly murdering people in the UK. 

 

The same Putin interfering with our democracy.

 

This is why we need to vote again, shit like this emerges every day.

 

 

 

 

Vitol whose Chairman (CEO at the time of the referendum) and equity holder Ian Taylor was a donor of the Remain campaign also meets with Putin. 

BP's CEO Bob Dudley and AstraZeneca's CEO Pascal Soriot certainly have no desire for Brexit. 

 

These are just businesses that have strong interests in Russia ffs. For JCB it's their second biggest export market after India. Jesus wept. 

[Strokes]

7 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Vitol whose Chairman (CEO at the time of the referendum) and equity holder Ian Taylor was a donor of the Remain campaign also meets with Putin. 

BP's CEO Bob Dudley and AstraZeneca's CEO Pascal Soriot certainly have no desire for Brexit. 

 

These are just businesses that have strong interests in Russia ffs. For JCB it's their second biggest export market after India. Jesus wept. 

Like leaving the EU changes Britain and Russia’s relationship anyway....

[Alf Bentley]

30 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Like leaving the EU changes Britain and Russia’s relationship anyway....

 

Harder for UK to stand up to Russia over any disputes if isolated than if in a closely united bloc with the rest of the EU.

 

But I suspect that the big prize for Putin from Brexit is weakening the EU. Weakening the UK is a bonus. UK and France are the main military powers in W. Europe, after all, while Germany is already heavily reliant on Russian energy supplies.

Similar motivation for Russia's alleged interference in US - an isolationist, nationalist USA falling out with allies in Europe benefits Putin....divide and rule.

 

Similar motivation again for Trump in supporting Brexit: leaves the EU weaker without the UK, and the UK more isolated and outmuscled in an uneven bilateral relationship.

Advantages mainly economic for Trump (can impose tougher trade terms on the UK, and the EU is a less powerful economic rival). Partly political for Putin (EU less likely/able to object if he sticks his oar into Ukraine, Baltic States or wherever).

[WigstonWanderer]

5 hours ago, MattP said:

Nobody vote blindly to leave.

 

We voted to leave knowing that meant leaving the customs union and the single market as we were told. 

 

Now I'm even comprising on that and I'm told I need a second vote.

 

Why not just be honest for once and tell us you want a second vote to reverse it? We can tell you know.

Matt, you may well not have done.

 

You may not have believed that it would be the easiest deal in history to achieve. You may have understood that leaving the customs union might well blow up the Good Friday agreement, and perhaps you were OK with that despite the potentially tragic consequences to people affected.

 

You may also have laughed at the 350m a week dividend going to the NHS and thought what a good wheeze that was, and that it might get your side over the line.

 

Can you honestly say that you speak for everyone who voted to leave?

[Jimothy]

9 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Matt, you may well not have done.

 

You may not have believed that it would be the easiest deal in history to achieve. You may have understood that leaving the customs union might well blow up the Good Friday agreement, and perhaps you were OK with that despite the potentially tragic consequences to people affected.

 

You may also have laughed at the 350m a week dividend going to the NHS and thought what a good wheeze that was, and that it might get your side over the line.

 

Can you honestly say that you speak for everyone who voted to leave?

Of course he can, this is Matt, he knows the exact reasons everyone voted, because it's the same as him. Probably knows why we voted remain too.

[Guest MattP]

9 hours ago, Facecloth said:

Of course he can, this is Matt, he knows the exact reasons everyone voted, because it's the same as him. Probably knows why we voted remain too.

I think it's only remainers who go around proudly announcing that they also knew what the other side voted for. 

[Jimothy]

13 minutes ago, MattP said:

I think it's only remainers who go around proudly announcing that they also knew what the other side voted for. 

 You're constantly on here telling us the reason people voted leave. Just pack it in with the people voted for bullshit, YOU voted for what you voted for, stop trying to speak for everyone.

[Guest MattP]

 

[Guest MattP]

They have form for bullshitting on this as well.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/01/05/peoples-vote-march-attended-third-number-organisers-claimed/

[Sampson]

I voted remain but I absolutely do not believe in a 2nd referendum.

 

Firstly, the irreplaceable damage this could do to democracy is frightening- the idea we vote again before a policy is implemented after MPs have frustrated the issue sets a scary precedent. It's not the same as having an election every 5 years because people change their mind on policy as some remainers keep calling because governments implement policy prior to that. If there's another vote in 5 years time after Brexit has been implemented then 5.

 

But to get to the stage where we're shown very clearly a model of how Mps just need to frustrate the pushing through of policy until the public get so disillusioned it doesn't happen just shows a model of how governments can act quite easily against the will of the people and in undemocratic ways- which is fine if it's something you agree with, but imagine this power in the hands of the worst, most genocidal people you can think of, if they ever get in power in 50 years time or so - another referendum surely shatters some of the checks and balances which can uphold democracy? Which could lead to very scary consequence way down the line.

 

Secondly, surely all leavers will just boycott this second vote anyway? I know I would if I was a leaver - and we'll very likely end up with some sham vote like we often (rightly) castigate the likes of Russia, Venezuela and Zimbabwe for?

[Jon the Hat]

Can some of you remainers explain what compromise you would be offering to the Leave voters if you had won? Anyone?  My bet is you would have moved on and we would not even be talking about reforming the EU or any of the other bollocks.

Go hard or go home.

[Bobby Hundreds]

38 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Can some of you remainers explain what compromise you would be offering to the Leave voters if you had won? Anyone?  My bet is you would have moved on and we would not even be talking about reforming the EU or any of the other bollocks.

Go hard or go home.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681