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[Benguin]

Very skeptic all about the revoke article 50 petition. I’ve just successfully signed it 5 times using different email addresses. I hope these petitions don’t achieve anything as to sign them it’s not the same checks as actually voting.

[Guest MattP]

Well what a turn up, I'm amazed, absolutely amazed

 

 

[AKCJ]

Yes we voted to leave 3 years ago, but I don't think that the same would happen again. Is that democracy? I don't know.

 

Should we respect the democratic decision the country made 3 years ago or should another referendum be held now that more light is shed on the matter and the country has 3 years of experience in what brexit truly is?

 

No idea, i'll respect both decisions. I really don't think we'd vote to leave a second time though.

[AKCJ]

12 minutes ago, Benguin said:

Very skeptic all about the revoke article 50 petition. I’ve just successfully signed it 5 times using different email addresses. I hope these petitions don’t achieve anything as to sign them it’s not the same checks as actually voting.

The petition is there to put pressure on the Government. 4/5m 'people' have supposedly signed that petition but 16m actual people voted to leave the country under proper democratic process.

 

In short, it doesn't mean a thing.

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Can some of you remainers explain what compromise you would be offering to the Leave voters if you had won? Anyone?  My bet is you would have moved on and we would not even be talking about reforming the EU or any of the other bollocks.

Go hard or go home.

 

- Reverse Tory cuts to labour inspections. Increase inspections/monitoring to crack down on employers using illegal migrant labour or abusing system via low pay, charging migrant gangs for substandard, multi-occupancy housing etc.

- Legislate to ensure that employers have to make jobs available to locals, not just imported migrant gangs, and enforce implementation of this properly

- Implement existing EU rules allowing restrictions on freedom of movement re. benefits (e.g. 3-month ceiling if not employed); even though the "migrant benefits scroungers" claim is false, it is widely believed so action would help.

- Reverse the decision to get rid of training bursaries for nurses, so that more natives take up the profession, rather than importing foreign nurses trained at the expense of their own nations. Fund this by reversing tax cuts for big business and high earners.

- Likewise, put serious funds and work into increasing the number of apprenticeships, rather than importing ready-trained tradespeople from E. Europe, then having agencies pay them below market rates, boosting the profits of the big players in construction who make large donations to the Tory party

- Fund councils properly so that they can pay decent rates to care homes, so that they can pay decent rates to staff, rather then employing migrant labour on the cheap or going bust

- Legislate to increase job security so that fewer people live in fear of losing their livelihood and/or homes from one month to another

- Introduce teaching on EU institutions/functioning into school citizenship classes so that the next generation are less ignorant than current adults: e.g. so that they know that most EU decisions are not "imposed by Brussels" but are taken by the Council, comprising national govts, often with a national veto

- Make it a priority to stimulate new investment in areas devastated by the loss of old industries so that fewer people lack opportunities, feel abandoned and are inclined to seek scapegoats such as the EU and immigrants

- Work with the EU, MEPs, political parties and the media to create a better connection between MEPs and those who elect them, and a higher profile for EU initiatives as few people have a clue what the EU does (at least partly the EU's fault)

- As Carl said, work within the EU to shift its priorities: less cash for farming, more for deindustralised or underdeveloped regions; more redistribution to grow markets in S/E. Europe; more democratic connections; less corruption & gravy train etc.

- Ensure minimum pay rates remain reasonable and encourage unionisation so that jobs currently deemed unacceptable "low-paid jobs" are seen as an option by Brits (e.g. social care, farm labour, catering)

 

There's a few compromises to be going on with, Jon. 

 

What compromises are you offering to us lot, almost half the population, your 16.1m fellow citizens who voted Remain. Any Soft Brexit compromise or just a demand like "Go hard or go home" chucked over one shoulder, your moneybags hanging over the other shoulder as you head for your flight to Aus?  Hope it goes well for you, btw. I hope to visit Aus again some day.

[Finnegan]

58 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

Liam Fox is claiming the government could ignore the MPs over Brexit.

 

It's incredible that our plan becomes vaguer the closer we get to Brexit.

 

I'm tending to think there must be a referendum on the deal now.

 

But referendums are normally two way: accept or decline. This could be "accept" or "decline and forget Brexit".

 

But that still leaves annoyed voters who voted for Brexit but don't like the deal.

 

And they'll blame the politicians for not getting whatever their idealised definition of Brexit was. And vote for some opportunist antiestablishment Farage clone.

 

I don't think the vote can be any two options alone, really. I think it needs to be Leave Deal, Leave No Deal, Stay. Maybe even Leave Deal, Leave No Deal, Postpone (to whatever extent that's possible), Stay. 

 

I don't think you can really get all of the available options in to any fair vote with just two options given how split everyone is, especially given how split the Leave camp are in what they actually want. 

 

You'll have people who want this deal, people who want a better deal, people who want no deal. 

 

Then even amongst remainers, you may want have those who always wanted to remain or people who've swung round to remain but would only vote as such if certain assurances were made that there'd, for example, be another referendum in X years time if things didn't improve.

 

People are more informed than they were but they're also as divided as they've ever been and the ludicrously naive rhetoric from entrenched Leavers about how everyone just needs to pull together now is silly in the extreme. 

 

Multi choice referendum with first choice, second choice options about as fair as you're going to get. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, RonnieTodger said:

Can't see them making the World Cup if they're getting beat by Syria

 

Unless they are in Scotland's group.

[Grebfromgrebland]

 

A bit of fun to lighten the atmosphere

[Jon the Hat]

26 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

There's a few compromises to be going on with, Jon. 

 

What compromises are you offering to us lot, almost half the population, your 16.1m fellow citizens who voted Remain. Any Soft Brexit compromise or just a demand like "Go hard or go home" chucked over one shoulder, your moneybags hanging over the other shoulder as you head for your flight to Aus?  Hope it goes well for you, btw. I hope to visit Aus again some day.

Haha that made me laugh I must admit.  Sadly I don't have any moneybags, we will be taking a bit of a step back once we bear the cost of moving.

As I have probably made clear many times, I love Europe and my many European friends and colleagues, but can't stand the EU.  More importantly, it isn't going in the right direction.  We can either be the first to leave or not, but I have no doubt the EU will within a decade cease to exist as it does today.  The willingness of the contributors to keep paying is dropping, and those there for a handout will be off as soon as it drops away.  There will be an inner circle, and we will never ever be part of it.  Better a strong UK outside than trying to be halfway, and a better opportunity to leave now before it all falls apart.

As for a 2nd Ref - I think that might be the final nail in the coffin for the millions who voted for Leave, who have been alienated by free movement, told they are just racist or not important.  We would see a huge rise in the right and left, with a lot less in the middle where most of us want to be and to live.  That won't be good for our nation.

[Jon the Hat]

58 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Yes we voted to leave 3 years ago, but I don't think that the same would happen again. Is that democracy? I don't know.

 

Should we respect the democratic decision the country made 3 years ago or should another referendum be held now that more light is shed on the matter and the country has 3 years of experience in what brexit truly is?

 

No idea, i'll respect both decisions. I really don't think we'd vote to leave a second time though.

I think you would see a lot of people decline to vote in a second referendum.  I'm not sure how I would feel about say a 16M to 2M victory for remain.  That would be a very sad outcome.

[Finnegan]

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

I think you would see a lot of people decline to vote in a second referendum.  I'm not sure how I would feel about say a 16M to 2M victory for remain.  That would be a very sad outcome.

 

Sorry Jon but that's bonkers. 

 

You might get a lot of people claiming they'd decline but when push comes to shove, with so much riding on it, if you still want to leave you're going to vote to leave. 

[MC Prussian]

1 hour ago, AKCJ said:

Yes we voted to leave 3 years ago, but I don't think that the same would happen again. Is that democracy? I don't know.

 

Should we respect the democratic decision the country made 3 years ago or should another referendum be held now that more light is shed on the matter and the country has 3 years of experience in what brexit truly is?

 

No idea, i'll respect both decisions. I really don't think we'd vote to leave a second time though.

Well, looking from the outside in, it seems both strange and frightening that any country that fulfills a certain amount of (economic) criteria can get in, but there's never been a discussion or grounds for countries leaving the EU? Reeks of elitism and what about respecting individual countries' tendencies?

And why shouldn't countries decide for themselves what's good for them? Are they all too incompetent from the EU's point of view?

I'm all for a European Union, but one that is solely based on a political idea, based on the foundation of the original union, one that brought Germany and France back together after WWII. The moment the Euro was conceived, it all went downhill.

When you look at the apparatus built in Brussels, it's a molokh that devours anything it touches, it's like a modern-day usurpator.

 

I also find it odd that people can't stand how direct democracy works - not wanting to accept the result of the first vote, then claiming the people were misled.

Well, hello - there surely was no time and no possibility to inform oneself in detail beforehand about the possible ramifications of a Brexit?

How often do the "losers" now want to repeat a vote until the result favours them instead?

 

I can vote on many issues here in my country - sometimes, I "win", sometimes I "lose". But I'm surely not going to get all wound up about it. The majority has spoken and this is how it'll go from hereon.

[Jon the Hat]

Just now, Finnegan said:

 

Sorry Jon but that's bonkers. 

 

You might get a lot of people claiming they'd decline but when push comes to shove, with so much riding on it, if you still want to leave you're going to vote to leave. 

That might be an exaggeration, but I am not as convinced as you that we wouldn't see a mass rejection of the vote.

[Jon the Hat]

31 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

I don't think the vote can be any two options alone, really. I think it needs to be Leave Deal, Leave No Deal, Stay. Maybe even Leave Deal, Leave No Deal, Postpone (to whatever extent that's possible), Stay. 

 

I don't think you can really get all of the available options in to any fair vote with just two options given how split everyone is, especially given how split the Leave camp are in what they actually want. 

 

You'll have people who want this deal, people who want a better deal, people who want no deal. 

 

Then even amongst remainers, you may want have those who always wanted to remain or people who've swung round to remain but would only vote as such if certain assurances were made that there'd, for example, be another referendum in X years time if things didn't improve.

 

People are more informed than they were but they're also as divided as they've ever been and the ludicrously naive rhetoric from entrenched Leavers about how everyone just needs to pull together now is silly in the extreme. 

 

Multi choice referendum with first choice, second choice options about as fair as you're going to get. 

As it goes:

1) Postpone (assuming this was 2 years with the intention of agreeing the actual long term deal)

2) Leave no deal

3) Remain

4) Leave Deal (based on the current nonsense)

[Finnegan]

Just now, Jon the Hat said:

That might be an exaggeration, but I am not as convinced as you that we wouldn't see a mass rejection of the vote.

 

Eh, I could just as well claim that plenty of Remain minded voters stayed away from the first vote out of complacency or naivety and they'd flock to vote in a second referendum. 

 

It is what it is. You don't vote, you only shaft yourself. You want to protest, protest but protesting by not voting in a perfectly democratic vote is just dumb and those people would deserve whatever they get. 

[Jon the Hat]

2 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Eh, I could just as well claim that plenty of Remain minded voters stayed away from the first vote out of complacency or naivety and they'd flock to vote in a second referendum. 

 

It is what it is. You don't vote, you only shaft yourself. You want to protest, protest but protesting by not voting in a perfectly democratic vote is just dumb and those people would deserve whatever they get. 

I fully agree.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

Eh, I could just as well claim that plenty of Remain minded voters stayed away from the first vote out of complacency or naivety and they'd flock to vote in a second referendum. 

 

It is what it is. You don't vote, you only shaft yourself. You want to protest, protest but protesting by not voting in a perfectly democratic vote is just dumb and those people would deserve whatever they get. 

Very much doubt I'd partake in a second vote - as I said earlier I have no reason to believe whatsoever parliament would uphold the result if it didn't suit.

 

Much easier to do what we should have done in the first place, mobilise a vote cross party in a General election going for the leave candidate in each seat. That works in our favour as well with 61% of constituencies being leave instead of 52% in a popular vote - it might also make sure the parties themselves are more representative of the electorate. 

[Finnegan]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Very much doubt I'd partake in a second vote - as I said earlier I have no reason to believe whatsoever parliament would uphold the result if it didn't suit.

 

Much easier to do what we should have done in the first place, mobilise a vote cross party in a General election going for the leave candidate in each seat. That works in our favour as well with 61% of constituencies being leave instead of 52% in a popular vote - it might also make sure the parties themselves are more representative of the electorate. 

 

You would 100% vote. 

[Buce]

54 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

- Reverse Tory cuts to labour inspections. Increase inspections/monitoring to crack down on employers using illegal migrant labour or abusing system via low pay, charging migrant gangs for substandard, multi-occupancy housing etc.

- Legislate to ensure that employers have to make jobs available to locals, not just imported migrant gangs, and enforce implementation of this properly

- Implement existing EU rules allowing restrictions on freedom of movement re. benefits (e.g. 3-month ceiling if not employed); even though the "migrant benefits scroungers" claim is false, it is widely believed so action would help.

- Reverse the decision to get rid of training bursaries for nurses, so that more natives take up the profession, rather than importing foreign nurses trained at the expense of their own nations. Fund this by reversing tax cuts for big business and high earners.

- Likewise, put serious funds and work into increasing the number of apprenticeships, rather than importing ready-trained tradespeople from E. Europe, then having agencies pay them below market rates, boosting the profits of the big players in construction who make large donations to the Tory party

- Fund councils properly so that they can pay decent rates to care homes, so that they can pay decent rates to staff, rather then employing migrant labour on the cheap or going bust

- Legislate to increase job security so that fewer people live in fear of losing their livelihood and/or homes from one month to another

- Introduce teaching on EU institutions/functioning into school citizenship classes so that the next generation are less ignorant than current adults: e.g. so that they know that most EU decisions are not "imposed by Brussels" but are taken by the Council, comprising national govts, often with a national veto

- Make it a priority to stimulate new investment in areas devastated by the loss of old industries so that fewer people lack opportunities, feel abandoned and are inclined to seek scapegoats such as the EU and immigrants

- Work with the EU, MEPs, political parties and the media to create a better connection between MEPs and those who elect them, and a higher profile for EU initiatives as few people have a clue what the EU does (at least partly the EU's fault)

- As Carl said, work within the EU to shift its priorities: less cash for farming, more for deindustralised or underdeveloped regions; more redistribution to grow markets in S/E. Europe; more democratic connections; less corruption & gravy train etc.

- Ensure minimum pay rates remain reasonable and encourage unionisation so that jobs currently deemed unacceptable "low-paid jobs" are seen as an option by Brits (e.g. social care, farm labour, catering)

 

 

5

 

Yeah, but apart from that?

[Jon the Hat]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Yeah, but apart from that?

All those years we could have done these things and we didn't.  There is no reason to believe the Government would have done anything other than take the remain vote as a mandate to stay as they were.

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

All those years we could have done these things and we didn't.  There is no reason to believe the Government would have done anything other than take the remain vote as a mandate to stay as they were.

 

On that, we can agree.

[AKCJ]

45 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

Well, looking from the outside in, it seems both strange and frightening that any country that fulfills a certain amount of (economic) criteria can get in, but there's never been a discussion or grounds for countries leaving the EU? Reeks of elitism and what about respecting individual countries' tendencies?

And why shouldn't countries decide for themselves what's good for them? Are they all too incompetent from the EU's point of view?

I'm all for a European Union, but one that is solely based on a political idea, based on the foundation of the original union, one that brought Germany and France back together after WWII. The moment the Euro was conceived, it all went downhill.

When you look at the apparatus built in Brussels, it's a molokh that devours anything it touches, it's like a modern-day usurpator.

 

I also find it odd that people can't stand how direct democracy works - not wanting to accept the result of the first vote, then claiming the people were misled.

Well, hello - there surely was no time and no possibility to inform oneself in detail beforehand about the possible ramifications of a Brexit?

How often do the "losers" now want to repeat a vote until the result favours them instead?

 

I can vote on many issues here in my country - sometimes, I "win", sometimes I "lose". But I'm surely not going to get all wound up about it. The majority has spoken and this is how it'll go from hereon.

That's not really what i've said. The 2016 EU Referendum was sold on lies and false promises from both sides. Is that really democracy?

 

"Vote for me and i'll give you all a new Lambourghini".

 

Lets not act as though there wouldn't be plenty of Leave voters feeling the same way had we voted to remain in 2016. It's a massive decision that affects everyone in the country. It was and always will be a very heated debate with people on both sides wanting what they feel is best for Britain. 

 

 

*I should note that I personally really am on the fence. I see the merits in a second referendum, I also see that the country has already voted to Leave.

 

*I also don't think "lets just keep having referendums until I get the result I want". A second referendum should be final - if there was to be one. I'm personally closer to the leave vote than i've ever been.

[MC Prussian]

7 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

That's not really what i've said. The 2016 EU Referendum was sold on lies and false promises from both sides. Is that really democracy?

 

"Vote for me and i'll give you all a new Lambourghini".

 

Lets not act as though there wouldn't be plenty of Leave voters feeling the same way had we voted to remain in 2016. It's a massive decision that affects everyone in the country. It was and always will be a very heated debate with people on both sides wanting what they feel is best for Britain. 

 

 

*I should note that I personally really am on the fence. I see the merits in a second referendum, I also see that the country has already voted to Leave.

 

*I also don't think "lets just keep having referendums until I get the result I want". A second referendum should be final - if there was to be one. I'm personally closer to the leave vote than i've ever been.

Leaving a construct such as the EU is a big issue with far-reaching consequences that go beyond this current generation and it's an issue that needs some serious in-depth knowledge, and what possibly should be done better or should've done better is/was to educate the people about the possible pros and cons on an objective basis - by the BBC most of all.

I can't look back and encompass what did happen in the UK back in the summer of 2016 and how much of that theoretical promise was fulfilled, that's just my wishful thinking.

 

Then again, you're looking at a certain media bias towards the EU and I doubt many UK papers or TV stations see the EU from a more critical point of view, so the public tends to be at a disadvantage from the get-go.

[Alf Bentley]

44 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

All those years we could have done these things and we didn't.  There is no reason to believe the Government would have done anything other than take the remain vote as a mandate to stay as they were.

 

Tend to agree. 

 

But you were challenging us Remainers about the compromises we'd make.

 

If you want to challenge the Govt, you should address your request to "David Cameron, Shepherd's hut in the back garden of his estate, Home Counties, England" or c/o Mrs. T. May, 10 Downing Street...

 

(Before anyone takes me too seriously, I am aware that the EU and the pre-2010 Labour Govt also bear some responsibility for the EU-UK disconnect - but Cameron had been PM for 6 years by the time of the referendum & May hasn't done much to address grievances since then).

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, MC Prussian said:

Leaving a construct such as the EU is a big issue with far-reaching consequences that go beyond this current generation and it's an issue that needs some serious in-depth knowledge, and what possibly should be done better or should've done better is/was to educate the people about the possible pros and cons on an objective basis - by the BBC most of all.

I can't look back and encompass what did happen in the UK back in the summer of 2016 and how much of that theoretical promise was fulfilled, that's just my wishful thinking.

 

Then again, you're looking at a certain media bias towards the EU and I doubt many UK papers or TV stations see the EU from a more critical point of view, so the public tends to be at a disadvantage from the get-go.

That's a joke, right?