Playing style - why the good football but not the finishing?

[Tom12345]

We are all frustrated seemingly because, amongst other things, we play good football and have a decent squad but yet we don’t look like scoring as much as the number of so called (half) “chances” suggests and we leak goals due to defensive errors.

 

Why do you think that is the case? Let’s break it down.

 

Puel’s playing style and squad selection surely have a lot to do with it. But where exactly is the problem?

 

To be fair, we should say that the football is prettier and we are really starting to “dominate” in the last few months (certainly the last few games). Yet:

 

- On the defensive side, we make far too many errors even when we are “dominating”. I feel MacGuire has a lot to do with this, whilst others like Ndidi has contributed with poor passing and decision making gifting chances to the opposition at vulnerable times. Schmeichel has also not been great letting in goals when he could have done better on a few occasions.

 

- In central midfield, we lacked a creative ball player who can link up play between defence and the forward line and create chances. With Tielemans in and Maddison dropping deeper, it seems like that area has improved. Ndidi is still a liability at times but he certainly seems to have done better since Tielemans has come in. I would not mind to see Hamza or Mendy replacing Ndidi though to see how they play together.

 

- On the wings, I think we are generally ok, although Ricardo is a bit wasted on the right at the moment without Albrington and with balls not going to the right as much.

 

- In the final third, this is our biggest problem. Why? I think it is far too simplistic to blame it on Vardy. He is not getting his chances but why? Barnes having come in has improved the quality in this area but he has been struggling to get the ball in Puel’s system. The main problem I think is till that Puel prefers to play Vardy upfront as a lone striker. That makes it difficult for Vardy to get on to through balls and fast breaks because he is always surrounded by defenders whilst we do not have the personnel who can deliver incisive balls through to him. Maddison has disappointed; hopefully Tielemans can do better; Barnes showed glimpses of brilliance but he only gets the ball when the entire defensive line is in front of him; Ndidi su*cks in this regard; Fuchs can still do a job but Chilwell is our no 1 now and Chilwell still has a lot to learn in terms of the timing and quality of his crosses; so that leaves only Evans and MacGuire who try to put it long for Vardy at times (eg. as they did in the Palace game) but they are our CBs and it shouldn’t be their job! So part of the problem is the lack of personnel to delivering those incisive balls at the right moments. But it is in combination with the system Puel prefers that has dragged Vardy and the quality of the final third down. Effectively, Puel supports Vardy by telling his two wingers to move up during attacks to support - ie. he thinks we have 3 upfront during attacks - but because we lack the personnel to move the ball up quickly, and “quickly” is the important word here, we often are left with a situation when the entire play waits for the two wingers (or two extra players on one side) to have moved up. What this does is to let the defence get back into position so that our forward line is swamped with 7 or 8 defenders behind the ball. This is what frustrates us a lot. It means we are making it very difficult to get through and because we do not have a Mahrez like player anymore, we just can’t get through. Vardy could not play to his strengths under this system. We do have good players so we still create “half” chances but that is it. Is therefore our solution is to stop thinking we are Man City and play two forwards instead of one? This way, we can move the ball quicker to the forward line with the other forward (eg. Okazaki) supporting in one-twos or dragging defenders away to create space for Vardy. Now, Vardy needs to either wait for a through ball that rarely comes or for the entire midfield to move up (which is what happens 90%) of the times (but by that time the defenders are already in position).

 

Thoughts?

Edited 24 February 2019 by Tom12345

[urban.spaceman]

We have one of the best strikers in the league and a manager who wants a style of play that doesn’t include playing to Vardy’s strengths. Simple as that. 

[volpeazzurro]

1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

We have one of the best strikers in the league and a manager who wants a style of play that doesn’t include playing to Vardy’s strengths. Simple as that. 

The days of ball over the top have gone. Teams sit deep. He needs to adapt and has been poor. Runs around a lot but realistically and sadly is contributing little. If we had a viable option or he was at another club he'd have been dropped by now I think and I take no pleasure in saying that. The whole team can't be expected to play to one 32 year olds past glories.

[NeilLCFC]

29 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

The days of ball over the top have gone. Teams sit deep. He needs to adapt and has been poor. Runs around a lot but realistically and sadly is contributing little. If we had a viable option or he was at another club he'd have been dropped by now I think and I take no pleasure in saying that. The whole team can't be expected to play to one 32 year olds past glories.

Yes cos this new style is so effective 

[HKFox]

54 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

The days of ball over the top have gone. Teams sit deep. He needs to adapt and has been poor. Runs around a lot but realistically and sadly is contributing little. If we had a viable option or he was at another club he'd have been dropped by now I think and I take no pleasure in saying that. The whole team can't be expected to play to one 32 year olds past glories.

Teams sat back against us towards the end of title win. Our tactics worked then to create opportunities to break teams down.  We can't even counter from a corner when Puel defends with all team back. Thielemans got ball edge of box from a palace corner and looked for an option to go forward, no one there and he got tackled edge of the box.   We pass so often and so slow tempo and movement we have no opportunities for playing a through ball let alone a hopefull ball over the top.  We give no service to Vardy, he is still a class striker. When Puel goes, I believe we will see Vardy back to his best, as in Pogba since Ole came in.  

[Chester Dontlie]

Re: Vardy.

Never thought I will miss 4-4-2 again after Ranieri's second season. There is no striker in the world who can thrive on his own and supply passes to himself. Before our game I watched Bundesliga game Bayern vs Hertha, in which Lewandowski was exactly as isolated as Vardy, can't remember if he had even one half-chance the whole game, so obviously he couldn't score (it ended 1-0 after DM's header from a corner). It's the same in every team really. When the midfielders aren't supplying balls to the striker you can't expect him to deliver. And when the striker doesn't get any support, he doesn't score a lot. And that's exactly what's happening to Vards. 

 

Stats: 

 

Tournament	Apps	Mins	Goals	Assists	SpG	KeyP	Drb	Fouled	Off	Disp	UnsTch	Rating
Premier League	19(4)	1750	8	3	2	0.8	0.3	0.5	1	0.6	1.4	6.68
FIFA World Cup England	1(3)	157	-	-	0.5	0.5	0.5	0.3	0.3	0.3	1.3	6.17
Int. Friendly England	2(1)	N/A	1	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	-
Total / Average	30	1907	9	3	1.8	0.7	0.3	0.4	0.9	0.5	1.4	6.61

 

That's 2 (TWO) shots per game. If that lack of support happened to Messi or Ronaldo people would get on their back too. And if you expect a striker to convert a 100% or even 50% of his chances, then I'm sorry you are clueless and should play FIFA instead of watching football games, because in real life it just doesn't happen. Both Salah and Lewandowski had conversion rate of 22% last season. Messi had 17,3. Ronaldo 14,6. Kane 15,7. Vardy? 28.6% . 

 

 

 

That was only last season. This season, so far, it's arguably worse. 8 (goals scored) / 2 (shots per game) x 19 (games). That's 21%. SHOCKING!!!!... Yes, he is indeed finished and living his past glories.

 

FFS have a word with yourself people.

 

Simply put, he is doing his best, and failing, in a system that doesn't suit him. And we have no player who could replace him at the moment and be more 'adaptive' to whatever Puel wants us to play (a digression: are there any players who adapted really well to puelball in this team and can be set as exaples? It's a rhetorical question, obviously). The problem is not Vardy's inability to adapt and learn new tricks, but Puel's stubbornness and lack of flexibility.

 

Most of the classic centre forwards like Vardy when journalists ask them what is their preferred set up say they like to play off a second, supporting striker. In a system with two strikers opposing defenders' attention is divided and they can play off each other. There's less pressure. Puel thought he will make offensive midfielders do the striker's duty, but evidently, they can't, so we end up watching Maddison, Gray and co. shooting balls into the stands ... It seems playing with a second striker was never in his plans. I think having Vards as a lone striker is almost as criminal as was getting stuck with two anti-creative DMs for most of the season. Since Puel came I have a feeling he's been stubbornly trying to emulate Guardiola's Barcelona or Man City, or Pochettino's Tottenham, while ignoring individual players' qualities and shortcomings. People keep on saying we need to give him time, another transfer window, because we are 'few signings away' from making things click (I heard this song last season already).

 

Let's face it, we will never have enough players to make it work, we don't have Man City's luxury to swim in world class players and bench the likes of Mahrez (or Vardy). Even Puel's new signings aren't making the system work. How many more new players need to be signed before we come to the conclusion it's the manager's fault. At the beginning of the season we were making fun of Wolves and calling them Wolvalona and other silly names, but it seems they will have the last laugh. Either they have better players, or maybe, just maybe, their manager has more clue than ours.

 

Speaking of the defensive side is like opening Pandora's box. We are absolute mess, one of the easiest teams to score against on the counter, always give away an early goal (and then have to chase the result). And Puel was supposed to be the 'safety first', defensive-minded manager  

 

As for Maguire. Like with Vardy, Puel is playing to his weaknesses instead of his strengths. England got to 4th place in the World Cup with this lad in defence... but Maguire was always playing in a three. 3-5-2 could be the answer for him and Vardy. But yeah, he's shit/overrated. Let's get rid in the summer. We can always rely on Wes to fill in, can't we. 

 

I won't even start about the midfield.

[Tom12345]

5 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

The days of ball over the top have gone. Teams sit deep. He needs to adapt and has been poor. Runs around a lot but realistically and sadly is contributing little. If we had a viable option or he was at another club he'd have been dropped by now I think and I take no pleasure in saying that. The whole team can't be expected to play to one 32 year olds past glories.

Teams sitting deep is partially a manifestation of Puel’s playing style as I and a few others here mentioned. They appear to sit deep precisely because we let them do that: (1) by letting Vardy play as a lone striker; (2) because we move the ball upfield too slowly allowing teams to get back into shape; (3) because we often need to slow down as we have to wait for our wingers to get up field to support the attack as Vardy is the only man forward otherwise. It would be different if we have another supporting striker.

Edited 24 February 2019 by Tom12345

[Guest]

7 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

We have one of the best strikers in the league and a manager who wants a style of play that doesn’t include playing to Vardy’s strengths. Simple as that. 

We HAD one of the best strikers.

 

I think FTers need to accept, that like Wes Morgan, Shinji and Robert Huth, Vardy has declined. He entered the season unfit, then got sent off and then had niggling groin problems. He hasn't been right physically or mentally throughout the season and that is clear in his poor and lacklustre play.

 

People need to accept that he was a super hero for us, a Legend for football but now it's over. Time to move on.

[wardyfox86]

What actually constitutes good football? I didn't watch anything yesterday and think "wow, that's good football"

 

We plodded around alot and moved the ball to the edge of their box, went sideways a few times before attempting a dreadful shot on goal.

 

We all scoffed at Spurs when they claimed possession = good football, but we are now a poundland Spurs, "dominating" games and falling short time and time again. I'd take Kasper>Mahrez>Vardy>Goal over this "good football" any day. 

[reynard]

4 hours ago, Chester Dontlie said:

Re: Vardy.

Never thought I will miss 4-4-2 again after Ranieri's second season. There is no striker in the world who can thrive on his own and supply passes to himself. Before our game I watched Bundesliga game Bayern vs Hertha, in which Lewandowski was exactly as isolated as Vardy, can't remember if he had even one half-chance the whole game, so obviously he couldn't score (it ended 1-0 after DM's header from a corner). It's the same in every team really. When the midfielders aren't supplying balls to the striker you can't expect him to deliver. And when the striker doesn't get any support, he doesn't score a lot. And that's exactly what's happening to Vards. 

 

Stats: 

 

Tournament	Apps	Mins	Goals	Assists	SpG	KeyP	Drb	Fouled	Off	Disp	UnsTch	Rating
Premier League	19(4)	1750	8	3	2	0.8	0.3	0.5	1	0.6	1.4	6.68
FIFA World Cup England	1(3)	157	-	-	0.5	0.5	0.5	0.3	0.3	0.3	1.3	6.17
Int. Friendly England	2(1)	N/A	1	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	N/A	-
Total / Average	30	1907	9	3	1.8	0.7	0.3	0.4	0.9	0.5	1.4	6.61

 

That's 2 (TWO) shots per game. If that lack of support happened to Messi or Ronaldo people would get on their back too. And if you expect a striker to convert a 100% or even 50% of his chances, then I'm sorry you are clueless and should play FIFA instead of watching football games, because in real life it just doesn't happen. Both Salah and Lewandowski had conversion rate of 22% last season. Messi had 17,3. Ronaldo 14,6. Kane 15,7. Vardy? 28.6% . 

 

 

 

That was only last season. This season, so far, it's arguably worse. 8 (goals scored) / 2 (shots per game) x 19 (games). That's 21%. SHOCKING!!!!... Yes, he is indeed finished and living his past glories.

 

FFS have a word with yourself people.

 

Simply put, he is doing his best, and failing, in a system that doesn't suit him. And we have no player who could replace him at the moment and be more 'adaptive' to whatever Puel wants us to play (a digression: are there any players who adapted really well to puelball in this team and can be set as exaples? It's a rhetorical question, obviously). The problem is not Vardy's inability to adapt and learn new tricks, but Puel's stubbornness and lack of flexibility.

 

Most of the classic centre forwards like Vardy when journalists ask them what is their preferred set up say they like to play off a second, supporting striker. In a system with two strikers opposing defenders' attention is divided and they can play off each other. There's less pressure. Puel thought he will make offensive midfielders do the striker's duty, but evidently, they can't, so we end up watching Maddison, Gray and co. shooting balls into the stands ... It seems playing with a second striker was never in his plans. I think having Vards as a lone striker is almost as criminal as was getting stuck with two anti-creative DMs for most of the season. Since Puel came I have a feeling he's been stubbornly trying to emulate Guardiola's Barcelona or Man City, or Pochettino's Tottenham, while ignoring individual players' qualities and shortcomings. People keep on saying we need to give him time, another transfer window, because we are 'few signings away' from making things click (I heard this song last season already).

 

Let's face it, we will never have enough players to make it work, we don't have Man City's luxury to swim in world class players and bench the likes of Mahrez (or Vardy). Even Puel's new signings aren't making the system work. How many more new players need to be signed before we come to the conclusion it's the manager's fault. At the beginning of the season we were making fun of Wolves and calling them Wolvalona and other silly names, but it seems they will have the last laugh. Either they have better players, or maybe, just maybe, their manager has more clue than ours.

 

Speaking of the defensive side is like opening Pandora's box. We are absolute mess, one of the easiest teams to score against on the counter, always give away an early goal (and then have to chase the result). And Puel was supposed to be the 'safety first', defensive-minded manager  

 

As for Maguire. Like with Vardy, Puel is playing to his weaknesses instead of his strengths. England got to 4th place in the World Cup with this lad in defence... but Maguire was always playing in a three. 3-5-2 could be the answer for him and Vardy. But yeah, he's shit/overrated. Let's get rid in the summer. We can always rely on Wes to fill in, can't we. 

 

I won't even start about the midfield.

Halleleujah!

We've basically become a very down market Arsenal from Wenger's final few seasons. But with out the same quality players.

[reynard]

18 minutes ago, FIF said:

We HAD one of the best strikers.

 

I think FTers need to accept, that like Wes Morgan, Shinji and Robert Huth, Vardy has declined. He entered the season unfit, then got sent off and then had niggling groin problems. He hasn't been right physically or mentally throughout the season and that is clear in his poor and lacklustre play.

 

People need to accept that he was a super hero for us, a Legend for football but now it's over. Time to move on.

Well thank god we had him against Chelsea, Everton and Man City or we'd be right in the sh*t.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, reynard said:

Well thank god we had him against Chelsea, Everton and Man City or we'd be right in the sh*t.

Because he won them singlehandedly? And maybe if we'd had someone else during the other games we wouldn't have been.

 

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, wardyfox86 said:

What actually constitutes good football? I didn't watch anything yesterday and think "wow, that's good football"

 

We plodded around alot and moved the ball to the edge of their box, went sideways a few times before attempting a dreadful shot on goal.

 

We all scoffed at Spurs when they claimed possession = good football, but we are now a poundland Spurs, "dominating" games and falling short time and time again. I'd take Kasper>Mahrez>Vardy>Goal over this "good football" any day. 

 

You're living in the past. Even the year after we won the league it didn't work - and got Ranieri and shakey the sack.

 

Gordon Banks is dead but I'd take him (at his best) over Kasper anyday.

Edited 24 February 2019 by Guest

[reynard]

1 minute ago, FIF said:

Because he won them singlehandedly? And maybe if we'd had someone else during the other games we wouldn't have been.

 

 

Well pretty much yes. We don't have anyone else on the books capable of scoring those goals he did against Everton and Chelsea.

Long term of course you're correct but right now we have far bigger problems than Vardy.

[wardyfox86]

4 minutes ago, FIF said:

 

You're living in the past.

 

Gordon Banks is dead but I'd take him (at his best) over Kasper anyday.

And what a past it was. After yesterday's result you'll find me hiding in 15-16 until we try again on Tuesday

 

What we are playing now is not good football, contrary to what the OP says. Winning football is good football. 

Edited 24 February 2019 by wardyfox86

[volpeazzurro]

7 hours ago, NeilLCFC said:

Yes cos this new style is so effective 

Well the original one after our winning season both ceased to work and we hadn't in any case the players to fulfil it. It's an absolute no brainer, it had to change whatever it was to be. Not saying we've got the right style at all but, whatever we adopt, we can't build it around a 32yr old player, he has to adapt to whatever it is. 

[broughtonblue]

Because in the summer he let 5 strikers go and bought 4 defenders, say no more about what his intentions were

[Trav Le Bleu]

14 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

We have one of the best strikers in the league and a manager who wants a style of play that doesn’t include playing to Vardy’s strengths. Simple as that. 

So back to playing on the break, which everyone knew how to nullify round about April 2016?

[StriderHiryu]

Our forward 3 aren’t creative or clinical enough. The Tielemans signing felt like a big improvement but for all our good play we don’t make or take enough of our chances. This is not straightforward to solve as playing this way is about attacking together as a team.

 

It will be interesting to see what style we play over the next few months. I have a feeling we will revert back to 442.

Edited 24 February 2019 by StriderHiryu

[coolhandfox]

Because our possession football is slow and predictable, decent possession based sides move the ball quickly and can change tempo.

 

Have to laugh at people saying counterattacking doesn't work, all the best teams counterattack at pace. The difference is it was the only way we could play. You have to be able to do both possession based football, with the ability to counter quickly when you don't have the ball and win it back.

 

 

[kristianity77]

Because apart from Vardy, we have no one who is employed to put the ball in the back of the net.  We literally have zero strikers.  Okazaki is past it, Nacho is actually dreadful and that's all we have.  

 

I believe we have a top 8 defence and midfield, but a relegation front line. Which is shown by the fact that we create quite a lot, but our conversion rate is shocking. 

[Foxboy]

I'd like to see a 4-1-2-1-2 narrow diamond.

 

N'didi or mendy as the holding midfielder.

 

Tielemans and choudary as the CMs

 

Maddison at CAM.

 

Vardy up top with either Barnes or Gray.

 

Chilwell and Riccy providing the width with Barnes or Gray also pulling defenders wide to create space for vardy.

[TMELcfc]

I'm intrigued what people see as good football. Just simply keeping the ball, isn't good football is it? I like to see a team play together with heart, dig out a huge win/battling performance, see a solid cohesive unit look organised and know exactly what each others role is and be quick and deadly at the other end... I suppose all I have done is describe the team who won the league, but I like to see organisation and determination, not a load of players passing sideways not taking the game by the scruff of the neck.

 

I might be in the minority, but not often did I think under Puel we played really good football...

[Crispin LA]

The goal against Spurs last Sunday, the build up passing was the best I have ever seen! 

[Nicolo Barella]

Our problem was not really Vardy, it was the fact that our front three all together just did not create enough space for each other to run into, and when they did, they didn't make the runs either and when they did make runs, they were often ignored for a shot. I think Barnes is our only winger all season who has done what Puel wanted of him.

 

Two up top might have solved some of our problems but to be honest I doubt it. Unless maybe Barnes played as the second striker, both Iheanacho and Okazaki were clearly not good enough to play to the standard Puel requires.

 

Maybe with time it would have worked out, probably not. I think Puel was trying the impossible to be honest - we just don't have the right players at the front to play the style of football he wants and the club wants.