The Politics Thread 2019

[Arriba Los Zorros]

2 minutes ago, Wortho said:

That's embarrassing mate.

Edited: no in hindsight, not worth bothering leaving a reply here, you're like the rest of the Brexiters and won't listen to rhyme nor reason anyway.

Edited 26 July 2019 by Arriba Los Zorros

[Wortho]

1 minute ago, lifted*fox said:

 

well, that's not true, is it?

 

what about the 10,000 odd people who took to the street to protest Johnson's appointment - were they all 60, middle aged and white? 

 

 

young people, black, white, asian - all concerned about their futures, their education, their opportunities to travel, to live across europe. 

 

what exactly happened to people like yourself that makes you think these concerns for the younger generation aren't valid? 

 

why are you so bitterly entrenched that you ignore facts and photos like the one above? 

 

 

Calm down mate you know nothing about me and make assumptions. You are showing your ignorance.

[Wortho]

2 minutes ago, Arriba Los Zorros said:

You're the one embarassing yourself.......

You must be a Remainer loon.

[Dames]

16 minutes ago, Ali Begbie said:

Really good observation that. Goes a long way to explaining the appeal of the Leave campaign.

 

True, some Remainers don't cover themselves in glory with some of their actions - but it's the Leaders of the Brexit cause whose behavoir has been bizarre.

 

Things like throwing dead fish into the Thames, turning their backs on the EU anthem, predicting the next  'golden age'... It has an almost religious fanaticism about it.

Along with those the biggest thing is the WW2 comparative rhetoic from the leading figures of Brexit. Just look at Mark Francois last night and the Leave.EUs official campaign page's reaction to it, there are plenty more examples too. The WW2 rhetoric is very strong and it really appeals to a certain demographic in this country - Generally white british nationals that are 40-70 years old that grew up in an age where WW2 was romanticized and they grew up hearing stories from their parents/grandparents which painted Britain in an extremely positive light.

 

Politicians know this as well hence why Boris is immensely popular despite his previous failings in high office.

[lifted*fox]

3 minutes ago, Wortho said:

Calm down mate you know nothing about me and make assumptions. You are showing your ignorance.

 

I've taken 2 seconds to look at your current post history and you're getting a battering in the jokes thread for telling 70's jokes using casual racism calling Japanese people 'nips'.

 

I think I've got a decent handle on what type of guy you might be. 

[David Guiza]

It's been done over and over, but i'm still bemused at how we seem to be looking at hard Brexit now, despite no further vote on the subject. It's like 10 mates are discussing plans for a Saturday night, 6 of them want to go to a club and 4 of them want to stay in so it's decided that all 10 have to get to a point of having their stomachs pumped at the end of the night.  

 

Though, one minor positive to come from a hard Brexit would be that those in favour cannot apportion the blame anywhere else should it fail. Anything other than a hard Brexit that resulted in failure would undoubtedly be blamed on the fact that it wasn't a 'complete Brexit'.

 

1 hour ago, Foxin_Mad said:

Its bizarre Brexit isn't really a left vs right situation, I don't understand why people would think it is.

 

From my experience it's as much about class as it is right and left. On the whole there seems to be that the richester and poorest are in favour of Brexit and the middle for remain. At least they're the most vocal about it in the media anyway. 

 

Left and right certainly comes in to it though, though it's more centre left and centre right, rather than the extremes. Some Brexiteers have got into their heads that every single remain voter is 'snowflake' and some Remainers believe every Brexit voter to be EDL members. I did have a chuckle at someone suggesting that Stephen Fry wasn't intelligent because he was anti Boris/Brexit, as though anybody who disagrees with your opinion is now thick. 

[Dames]

6 minutes ago, Wortho said:

Who got it wrong?

Nobody has got anything wrong yet because Brexit hasn't happened.

 

All evidence however points to our economy tanking - the pound has been taking a beating for the past 3 years and is barely holding out. The only reason it hasn't plummeted completely is because we haven't left the EU yet so in the short term nothing much has changed and business resumes as usual. Long term however things look ropey as the current situation is unsustainable.

 

All you have to do is look at the fluctuations in the value of the pound, the biggest drop was when the referendum result was announced and subsequent drops have been related to no deal becoming a possibility, each time its climbed significantly is when parliament has fought against No Deal. The minute we leave the EU with or without a deal its value will drop again, more so without a deal. I imagine it will recover eventually but not for a few years and not after we've all suffered and Jacob Rees-Mogg and friends have made millions off of it.

 

I imagine we'll all be fine in the end and 'just get on with it' but personally I don't want to be poorer and potentially struggle short-mid term because of someone else's decisions fueled by fantasies of the empire.

[Jattdogg]

1 hour ago, MC Prussian said:

Out of curiosity, I just read up on the Canada-US border situation.

 

Not as bad, but there‘s an increase in illegal border crossings, as well.

 

Latest numbers I read said something of less than a thousand people seeking refuge illegally. Given the much longer border with the US, I reckon there‘s a fair few that don‘t make their way into the statistics.

Yes, it happens but we've seen a fair share of Haitians and Nigerians crossing the border into Quebec ( or somalians into Manitoba or somewhere over there) and i don't see mr Trump stopping it. That is kind of funny considering he expects mexico to stop hondurans and others from crossing into the USA. With his policies it's driven refugees scared of being sent back home to instead seek out another country,  Canada.

 

The problem is we have that safe 3rd country law which doesnt help. If they cross at an official land crossing they get sent back to the USA. If they walk through a bush and cross into Canada they are allowed to stay and apply for asylum basically.  The reason why they can do this is because we havent declared the entire border with USA as an official entry point. Why wouldnt we? 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–United_States_Safe_Third_Country_Agreement

 

I have heard of mexicans/others flying to Canada and doing the same but sneaking into the USA so it can go both ways i suppose.

 

 

 

Edited 26 July 2019 by Jattdogg

[Foxin_Mad]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

I used to think like this but the last 3 years have ground me down into a skeptical, negative, cynical, untrusting old cvnt when it comes to all things politics.

 

The whole system needs drastic change and leaders I can trust before I’m engaged again unfortunately.

Maybe it has changed? Time will tell, I guess. Its better to finally hear someone talking about what the country can do, instead of how shite everything is or is going to be in the past few years.

 

It's been done over and over, but i'm still bemused at how we seem to be looking at hard Brexit now, despite no further vote on the subject. It's like 10 mates are discussing plans for a Saturday night, 6 of them want to go to a club and 4 of them want to stay in so it's decided that all 10 have to get to a point of having their stomachs pumped at the end of the night.  

 

Though, one minor positive to come from a hard Brexit would be that those in favour cannot apportion the blame anywhere else should it fail. Anything other than a hard Brexit that resulted in failure would undoubtedly be blamed on the fact that it wasn't a 'complete Brexit'.

 

From my experience it's as much about class as it is right and left. On the whole there seems to be that the richester and poorest are in favour of Brexit and the middle for remain. At least they're the most vocal about it in the media anyway. 

 

Left and right certainly comes in to it though, though it's more centre left and centre right, rather than the extremes. Some Brexiteers have got into their heads that every single remain voter is 'snowflake' and some Remainers believe every Brexit voter to be EDL members. I did have a chuckle at someone suggesting that Stephen Fry wasn't intelligent because he was anti Boris/Brexit, as though anybody who disagrees with your opinion is now thick. 

Its bizarre to be honest most of us just want to get on with our lives. I like to try and not be negative as much as possible. I do feel there is quite a lot of negativity around at the present.

 

People need to take a step back and look at what's really important. Are you and your loved ones healthy? Get outside enjoy the sea/mountain air, put down the phone get a pint and have a good chat and some nice food! Make the most of it. 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Wortho said:

I think that the Remainers on their coaches singing ridiculous pitiful songs are embarrassing. I have seen no evidence of Leavers having many protest marches.

 

What evidence have you that points to the economy "crashing" if there is a No Deal?

I also think the #FBPE types on their coaches singing ridiculous pitiful songs are embarrassing, as, I imagine, do most Remain voters. There is plenty of evidence of Leave voters protesting. Take, for example, this bloke below. He's had quite a bit of publicity due to the pro-Brexit protest marches he's organised:

 

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/james-goddard-guilty-assault-photographer-16487853

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/james-goddard-spared-jail-over-anny-soubry-nazi-jibe-a4195751.html

 

Embarrassing?

 

As for your second point, I don't recall claiming the economy would crash if there's no deal? But, as a result of your post, I've decided to look into it myself and you're right, it does seem to be something which could be a problem!

 

https://www.ft.com/content/6cd70552-ad2b-11e9-8030-530adfa879c2

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49027889

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2019/jul/23/debt-ceiling-trade-war-rate-cut-brexit-pound-market-imf-world-economy-business-live

 

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/105402/no-deal-brexit-foolhardy-gamble-poses-fundamental-risk

 

https://www.indy100.com/article/no-deal-brexit-economics-expert-comment-represenatives-us-embassy-9015491

[lifted*fox]

32 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

From my experience it's as much about class as it is right and left. On the whole there seems to be that the richester and poorest are in favour of Brexit and the middle for remain. At least they're the most vocal about it in the media anyway. 

 

Brexiteers - you can tick one or several tbh:

1. Rich and want to stay rich so the thought of Corbyn taxing them slightly harder / spreading a little wealth scares them to death. Would rather brexit and watch everyone else suffer.

2. Racist and want less coloured faces living on their street. Happy to be poorer if it means less foreigners kicking about.

3. Born just after the war, didn't live through it to feel the effects but romanticise about how we were once a great country and want a little taster of that.

4. From a poor part of the country, possibly badly educated and lap up what they read in the Sun / Daily Mail - bit Nationalist; probably fly the England flag from a window at home / on a van. Got caught up in the hype and don't understand the adverse effects. 

5. Sick of austerity and thought they'd stick it to the man by voting out of the EU when it's actually our own government who've shafted us for 9 years; adverse effect - you voted for more austerity. Oops.

6. You don't live here anymore but decided you'd whack your pro-brexit vote in from your villa in Spain forgetting the fact it'll **** you up as well OR you voted out, seen what a farce it is and you're wealthy enough to scarper off somewhere else. 

7. Several of the above and you know you've made the wrong choice but you've doubled down on it too long / too hard to give up so 'brexit means brexit' let's do it anyway.

8. You voted to leave the EU in good faith, you unfortunately believed all the guff and bluster and now realise that remaining is clearly the better option and you're able to admit it - good on you, genuinely. 

 

I literally have not met a single person who voted for brexit that didn't slip into one of the above categories, tbh. You can excuse people who maybe fall into catagories like 4 and 5 - they might go hand in hand. I think a lot of those types would change their mind given the chance. Nobody with even a couple of brain-cells votes to make themselves jobless / poorer. If you're a number 8 then fair play - takes a lot to admit it but you see it on here quite regularly. 

 

Remainers - generally people who were quite OK with how things were ticking along. Probably not overly rich / overly poor but intelligent enough to see through the propaganda before the referendum. Probably weren't that entrenched in politics until they realised that their freedoms / children's freedoms were under attack. Realise that the EU isn't the source of all their woes and want to see a government that tackles genuine issues like poverty, homelessness, climate change / wealth distribution across the UK and understands that all of that can be done whilst within the EU. Turned out in tens of thousands for marches in good nature, with funny signs, caused no trouble and generally want to see peace across Europe. Generally a broad spectrum but lots of young people who worry about their futures, their ability to travel, work and love freely across 27 countries. People who want to live happily and peacefully alongside all races / LGBT in their communities and understand the value that a diverse society can bring (has already brought) to the UK.

 

 

Edited 26 July 2019 by lifted*fox

[Wortho]

29 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

I also think the #FBPE types on their coaches singing ridiculous pitiful songs are embarrassing, as, I imagine, do most Remain voters. There is plenty of evidence of Leave voters protesting. Take, for example, this bloke below. He's had quite a bit of publicity due to the pro-Brexit protest marches he's organised:

 

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/james-goddard-guilty-assault-photographer-16487853

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/james-goddard-spared-jail-over-anny-soubry-nazi-jibe-a4195751.html

 

Embarrassing?

 

As for your second point, I don't recall claiming the economy would crash if there's no deal? But, as a result of your post, I've decided to look into it myself and you're right, it does seem to be something which could be a problem!

 

https://www.ft.com/content/6cd70552-ad2b-11e9-8030-530adfa879c2

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49027889

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2019/jul/23/debt-ceiling-trade-war-rate-cut-brexit-pound-market-imf-world-economy-business-live

 

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/105402/no-deal-brexit-foolhardy-gamble-poses-fundamental-risk

 

https://www.indy100.com/article/no-deal-brexit-economics-expert-comment-represenatives-us-embassy-9015491

Once again where is the evidence, this is all guess work.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Wortho said:

Once again where is the evidence, this is all guess work.

I don't know what kind of evidence you want me to provide other than inventing a time machine to go and check what happens in the future then? These are the evidenced predictions of some of the finest economic minds in the world whose lives are devoted to researching the possible effects of economic decisions. If you can find anyone with a similar level of expertise predicting otherwise I'm all ears?

 

Care to respond to my point about pro-Brexit protester James Goddard? Is he embarrassing?

[Wortho]

1 hour ago, lifted*fox said:

 

I've taken 2 seconds to look at your current post history and you're getting a battering in the jokes thread for telling 70's jokes using casual racism calling Japanese people 'nips'.

 

I think I've got a decent handle on what type of guy you might be. 

I wouldn't have to look at your post history. Am I getting battered?? One person remarked their opinion, so what!!

You appear to be a typical remainer, no one else is allowed an opinion.

Just give up mate you're having a mare.

[Wortho]

1 minute ago, Voll Blau said:

I don't know what kind of evidence you want me to provide other than inventing a time machine to go and check what happens in the future then? These are the evidenced predictions of some of the finest economic minds in the world whose lives are devoted to researching the possible effects of economic decisions. If you can find anyone with a similar level of expertise predicting otherwise I'm all ears?

 

Care to respond to my point about pro-Brexit protester James Goddard? Is he embarrassing?

I remember when the public were told that we must join the euro. The country would go in to meltdown and it would be like the Depression. 

Let's face it you or your "experts" haven't got a clue what will happen. 

But I believe in democracy, do you?

[leicsmac]

4 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

Twisting the original article, well done.

 

The young lad was arrested because "there were doubts about the authenticity of Mr Galicia's documents" and because his brother and other passengers were illegally entering the States. That makes the driver, now an adult and part-responsible, complicit.

You can argue that the ICE response may have been exaggerated, but faulty? Not.

Border Patrol are understaffed and ill-equipped to handle such a large influx of migrants to the US at the Southern border. It's a thankless job, but most of the US media don't care as much about them as they care about illegal immigrants in their coverage.

 

As for "Seal Gate", I think it's funny in some ways, but apart from a slight chuckle, doesn't strike me as overly newsworthy. It's a filler, nothing more, nothing less.

 

It's one of a litany of such incidents (over 1,000 so far) - this is just one of them. ICE can and are detaining people who are US citizens - that is not twisting anything, that is detailed in black and white in the article itself.

 

If you're looking for sympathy for the poor overworked border enforcers, then look somewhere else - if they don't like the heat they're getting, they can always quit. Plenty of job opportunities have opened up due to their sterling work, after all.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Wortho said:

I remember when the public were told that we must join the euro. The country would go in to meltdown and it would be like the Depression. 

Let's face it you or your "experts" haven't got a clue what will happen. 

But I believe in democracy, do you?

Purely out of curiosity, does this apply only to economic experts or to experts in all fields?

[lifted*fox]

25 minutes ago, Wortho said:

But I believe in democracy, do you?

 

you believe in democracy? how do you feel about the fact Leave.EU broke electoral law and overspent on campaign funding? how do you feel about stolen social media information being bought from Cambridge Analytica and then used to influence vulnerable voters by targeting them with ads based on their personal fears / preferences? how do you feel about Farage using an image of Syrian refugees to influence voting in a referendum about the EU? how do you feel about the high possibility of Russian interference across both US / UK voting systems? how do you feel about the likes of Steve Bannon having close ties to Farage, Aaron Banks, Trump, Johnson, etc? 

 

Please tell me all about the mounting piles of evidence that the result of the referendum was hijacked / tampered with and your beliefs in democracy. I'm fascinated to know. 

 

Edited 26 July 2019 by lifted*fox

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Wortho said:

I remember when the public were told that we must join the euro. The country would go in to meltdown and it would be like the Depression. 

Let's face it you or your "experts" haven't got a clue what will happen. 

But I believe in democracy, do you?

They're not "my experts" for one - and you don't have a clue what'll happen either, nor do you seem to be willing to provide any evidence backing up your point of view. It works both ways pal, the burden's not just on me here. So feel free?

 

I believe in democracy, obviously (though I don't know why you've brought that up as it's nowt to do with what we were discussing).

 

Now, I'd be grateful if you responded to the question I asked you about pro-Brexit protests as I've been good enough to answer yours....

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49122566

 

Is it that time of year again? Sigh.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49125925

 

Good to see the current administration is optimistic about future trade deals - as befits the biggest kid in the playground.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49124695

 

State's rights to inhibit women's rights are fine, but states rights to control emissions are not, apparently.

[Wortho]

44 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

They're not "my experts" for one - and you don't have a clue what'll happen either, nor do you seem to be willing to provide any evidence backing up your point of view. It works both ways pal, the burden's not just on me here. So feel free?

 

I believe in democracy, obviously (though I don't know why you've brought that up as it's nowt to do with what we were discussing).

 

Now, I'd be grateful if you responded to the question I asked you about pro-Brexit protests as I've been good enough to answer yours....

I don't know anything about pro-Brexit protests.

I thought you would be able to equate Brexit to democracy, obviously not.

I'm not the one saying it's going to be without problems leaving but ultimately it will be the right and democratic decision.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, Wortho said:

I don't know anything about pro-Brexit protests.

I thought you would be able to equate Brexit to democracy, obviously not.

I'm not the one saying it's going to be without problems leaving but ultimately it will be the right and democratic decision.

Which means you didn't bother to read the links I helpfully sent you. Here they are again:

 

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/james-goddard-guilty-assault-photographer-16487853

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/james-goddard-spared-jail-over-anny-soubry-nazi-jibe-a4195751.html

 

Do let me know if you'd like to respond once you've read them. I think you'll agree the guy's behaviour is at least as embarrassing as a few chumps from the Cotswolds decked out in yellow and blue singing shit songs on a bus.

[lifted*fox]

30 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

I think you'll agree the guy's behaviour is at least as embarrassing as a few chumps from the Cotswolds decked out in yellow and blue singing shit songs on a bus.

 

ironically people get decked out in team colours and sing shit songs at each other on busses for the football week in, week out.

 

only difference is these people are cheering on the EU as their team because perhaps they have family from there, came from there, aspire to live there one day, like to travel there, love their neighbours, etc. etc.

 

and it's all in the name of positivity and fun - at least they're not harassing politicians and shouting racial slurs at police officers like that awful james goddard dickhead.

 

it might be a bit cringe but only one lot of the two is going to come up smelling of roses when they write the history books, for sure. 

[The Horse's Mouth]

3 hours ago, Arriba Los Zorros said:

Brexit has sadly boiled down to ego - loads of people being unwilling to admit they were wrong because it hurts their pride to say so and therefore being doubly determined to ignore all sensible analysis and argument because  of it. Pathetic that our country might well be crippled because some morons are too insecure to admit they got it wrong.

Not being funny, but you can't write a post like that and talk about ego  . 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, lifted*fox said:

 

ironically people get decked out in team colours and sing shit songs at each other on busses for the football week in, week out.

 

only difference is these people are cheering on the EU as their team because perhaps they have family from there, came from there, aspire to live there one day, like to travel there, love their neighbours, etc. etc.

 

and it's all in the name of positivity and fun - at least they're not harassing politicians and shouting racial slurs at police officers like that awful james goddard dickhead.

 

it might be a bit cringe but only one lot of the two is going to come up smelling of roses when they write the history books, for sure. 

Yeah, I was being slightly facetious. Obviously that bellpiece Goddard (hate that he's from Leicestershire to boot) is a disgrace, and seems to be continuously plastered across the news so it's laughable for anyone to claim Leave voters aren't protesting and making arses of themselves by comparison (especially when confronted with the evidence twice *cough cough*).

 

While I may agree with their stance, the twee and cringeworthy image of some of these Remain protesters really does the cause no good at all. If there is ever to be a second referendum then a lot of people campaigning for Remain need to wise up a bit and stop treating the people they're trying to win over as stupid and uneducated, and cut out the "let's be jolly British about this" type crap, otherwise 2016 is doomed to repeat itself regardless of how the reality of what Brexit means has changed between then and now.