The Politics Thread 2019

[DJ Barry Hammond]

1 hour ago, Mike Oxlong said:

 

 

Give the main chorus line, I was surprised at the production values that went into that. 

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Kopfkino said:

Tbf Alf, terrible phrasing to say 'chased away', closer to 'pushed away' and not by anyone in particular. FT has a bias at a particular point on the political spectrum and it seems to me that the smaller pool of those that have provided some of the balance or alternate views are much less active. Just for a few names off the top of my head, Webbo (used to be attacked personally) was turned off it even before he stopped posting altogether, Matt (always baited) has said he is fed up of it, Strokes and Inno have said similar, Jon less active, Beechey rarely seen, Milo never in here. Obviously, posters inevitably come and they go, their situations change, their lives change, their interests change so you get natural wastage. But my thoughts, and maybe I'm projecting incorrectly my own thoughts onto those people, but increasingly it seems saying something is so is enough to make it so and thus actually discussing a topic, paying attention to a point and challenging or countering it, let alone accepting someone has a point but disagreeing, is now absent majority of the time. As Lionator effectively said, its just an embodiment of society where opposing views are just seen as illegitimate now. You Alf look at something, give an opinion, enquire into what others are thinking and might have a robust discussion, rather than projecting with your fingers in your ears. Much of this iteration of politics on FT, albeit in its infancy, has just been histrionics, and it's a turn off for anyone that might seek to counter (or actually the better quality debaters even if they agree) and you end up with a thread that's effectively groupthink.

 

I have little interest in US politics and pay little attention to it, but from the outside looking in, the Trump thread was, in recent times, an embodiment of this. It seemed tough enough to express any opinion that wasn't 'Trump is an awful monster' in earlier times but that became near impossible by the end. In the end, it became about playing the man rather than ball wrt the two posters that weren't subscribed to the groupthink, albeit with a brief interlude of decent discussion. 

 

 

 

Granted, there seems to be a majority of anti-Tory Brexit-sceptics in this thread at the moment, as there was in its predecessor latterly. A couple of largely pro-Trump Leftie-baiters were playing a dominant role in the Trump & USA thread, though.

 

As for FT having a particular bias, forum polls at previous elections have shown a more balanced picture, not far from the national polling figures. From memory, I think there was a slight Tory majority in 2010, pretty even in 2015, slight Labour majority in 2017, with significant minority support for other parties.....pretty representative, as forum members are probably younger than the national average (with a few exceptions).

 

Why there are fewer posts recently from articulate right-wingers, I don't know. There are plenty of Brexit Party supporters and Boris supporters out there, by no means all of them thick (), so it's surprising that so few are expressing that view on here - or at least, so few doing so with quality arguments.

 

Some of the posters you mentioned may be posting less frequently but they still post. Strokes, Innovindl, Beechey and Milo are still active, even if some are less vocal than before. Jon has always tended to make occasional short posts, due to a busy life of work and family - and is presumably even more busy trying to sort out his emigration to Australia now. I'm unclear why Webbo left, but got the impression that it was something to do with his mod work rather than a problem with posters - though I might be wrong about that. He was attacked himself, attacked others and didn't have a major problem with that, I thought? Same applies to Matt - and to me and several others, for that matter. I had a minor tiff with @MattP just before he took his current semi-vacation (about an unsubstantiated tabloid "Labour MP was spy" report, of all things), so hope that didn't contribute to his absence, as he's a good poster, even if I often disagree with him and we have the occasional tiff. I know that he was starting a new job recently, so may have less posting time and be making the sensible decision to devote it to football/cricket? Though he's had breaks before and returned to the fray - as I have myself.

 

I do wonder if a few people have moderated their views, too? Back in 2016, there were a number of posters who were convinced that Brexit would be easy-peasy, the EU would roll over, German car makers, Italian Prosecco exporters, they need us more than we need them, great trade deals all round the world, No Deal will be no problem etc. Admittedly, I'm sure those aren't the high-quality alternative posters whose absence you're lamenting.....but it would still be interesting to hear more from those who think that Brexit is going to be great, with or without a Deal. There are obviously a lot of people who still feel that way in the general population (40%+?) so that presumably applies to LCFC fans, too....

 

I'll be offline for a while myself soon, but due to a holiday walk along the south coast, not because I've been chased or even pushed away by FT posters. If I don't return, it just means I've fallen off a cliff or my heart couldn't take it - I'd expect a suitably piss-taking tribute in the Deathlist thread.... 

 

I do agree, though, that there's not a lot of stimulation in reading posts from any side saying "look, Boris/Corbyn/Trump/Blair is a genius/cvnt/great leader/useless posh twat".... Roll on holidays and football season! 

 

 

[Foxin_Mad]

2 hours ago, David Guiza said:

I cannot beleive that you are citing being privileged as an argument against Corbyn and in favour of Boris. Incredible effort. 

I really haven't seen a great deal of hysteria on here, but I do skim some pages so maybe I've missed it. What I will say however is that being unhappy and having reservations about one of the most uncertain times in decades is accetapble, is it not? Are people not allowed to be dismayed at the cabinet including people in favour of abortion and the death penalty? Must we just sit on our hands and back Boris to the hills come what may? I imagine the right would have reservations if the cabinet were made up of entirely remain voting MPs with questionnable backgrounds , so why can't anybody else? Yet again the 'left' are just written off as being hysterical, soft, moaners for having reservations. Suddenly we all have to be quiet and back the moron to the hills for the good of the nation.  

 

Also,as an aside, maybe it's just me but you referencing Corbyn on 99% of your posts is amusing. I haven't seen you post outside of the news related threads but I can only imagine that you somehow manage to crowbar him into the transfer talk and potential line up threads. I haven't seen any or many people on here suggest he would be a viable option at all, so I don't really know who you are debating with on that point? The fact that Boris is, hopefully, better than Corbyn does not mean he will be a success or worthy of his position. Musa is a better option than myself upfront (though I would debate that), but I would prefer somebody with a slight knowledge and comprehension as to what they're doing in said role. 

I am not saying Boris isn't privileged, please point me to a place where I have. I also don't think he is pretending to be a man o' the people though is he? Corbo is. 

 

Corbo is the leader of the official opposition currently, so  I would say he is fairly relevant in these discussions. He could terrifyingly be in a position in a few months to set up his own government 'shudder'. Forgive me for posting about him in the Politics thread. 

 

What I am saying about Boris, and I have my reservations about him, about his cabinet BUT we don't know his policies, we don't know what he is going to do. We are basing on the voting record of some people and based on the fact we don't like them because they are EVIL RICH or Tories or have beliefs we don't agree with. I think really we would be better to judge him on his actions and the actions of his cabinet when they are in power. If in 12 months time we don't like it and he has eaten the poor at the Palace of Westminster then fair enough but the hyperbole now is a little OTT. We are better to work with and have discussions with people, instead of just closing down and saying no don't like them, will not deal with them. 

 

We have had about 4 pages of people telling us how the country has ended etc etc etc, we don't know anything yet about what he is actually going to do, or whether he can even get what he wants to do through parliament. 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

@Alf Bentley

 

My take on Johnson going for a longer status quo period centres around the GAT 24 thing - which although largely derided as wishful thinking - seemed to be simply a way to kick the can down the road but in a less transparent way.

 

(GAT 24 allows free-trade for up to 10 years whilst looking to finalise a trade agreement - but needs to be agreed by both sides and would presumably mean passing some for of the withdrawal agreement.)

 

In terms of what Farage does with an early election... when questioned in a TV interview he didn’t rule out making some kind of pact.

 

He even went as far as to suggest a constituency where it might be preferable to let The Brexit Party have a free run - so it’s clear he’s given the scenario a lot of thought.

 

 

[Jon the Hat]

I agree with a lot of that Alf.  I think the thing that is pretty tiresome today is the "pick one thing one of the new senior cabinet members said or did and lambast them for it" approach to reviewing the new cabinet.  Seriously if you want to put people in jobs who have actually tried things you will ALWAYS find something to pick apart.  Did Williamson blab to the wrong person about Huawei from a completely broken cabinet meeting? Quite probably. Will he learn from that?  Hell yes.  Does Priti Patel support the death penalty? Who cares?  We aren't going to bring it back so it doesn't matter.  Has Boris put together a committed team who are aligned to his vision and will lead to a Brexit on the 31st October?  Yes.  Good.  Get on with it and lets move on.

[Jon the Hat]

5 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

I am not saying Boris isn't privileged, please point me to a place where I have. I also don't think he is pretending to be a man o' the people though is he? Corbo is. 

 

Corbo is the leader of the official opposition currently, so  I would say he is fairly relevant in these discussions. He could terrifyingly be in a position in a few months to set up his own government 'shudder'. Forgive me for posting about him in the Politics thread. 

 

What I am saying about Boris, and I have my reservations about him, about his cabinet BUT we don't know his policies, we don't know what he is going to do. We are basing on the voting record of some people and based on the fact we don't like them because they are EVIL RICH or Tories or have beliefs we don't agree with. I think really we would be better to judge him on his actions and the actions of his cabinet when they are in power. If in 12 months time we don't like it and he has eaten the poor at the Palace of Westminster then fair enough but the hyperbole now is a little OTT. We are better to work with and have discussions with people, instead of just closing down and saying no don't like them, will not deal with them. 

 

We have had about 4 pages of people telling us how the country has ended etc etc etc, we don't know anything yet about what he is actually going to do, or whether he can even get what he wants to do through parliament. 

Lets not forget the complaints about the Oxbridge set making up X% of the cabinet, as if having educated people running the country is a bad thing.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

 

One of the biggest problems with political debate, not only on here but anywhere online, is how each side religiously sticks to their sides attack lines without any consideration or free thought.

 

The loudest voices on the left and right just parrot what is told to them from their chosen almighty.

 

It can often leave considered centralists in despair, not wanting to join the chorus of either church, taking away the atheist voice of reason from debate.  

[The Horse's Mouth]

It probably doesn't help that the subject of brexit has continued to be the main topic to discuss for 4 years, kind of gets repetitive, especially with how both sides are to continue debating about it

[Strokes]

I don’t think anyone who regularly participates in the political threads can hold the moral high ground at overreactions, we are all guilty of it at times. 

Yes the balance is primarily with left leaning remain voters currently but it does look like their worst nightmare has come true this week .

I am sick of the debate but I’m not running away and nor have I changed my view. I’ll be participating more frequently soon enough, I like trolling too much. I’m just quite busy at the moment and it’s the off season. I’m sure Matt will be back soon too for similar reasons tbh.

[Strokes]

15 minutes ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

It probably doesn't help that the subject of brexit has continued to be the main topic to discuss for 4 years, kind of gets repetitive, especially with how both sides are to continue debating about it

It’s been done to death hasn’t it?

[David Guiza]

3 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I agree with a lot of that Alf.  I think the thing that is pretty tiresome today is the "pick one thing one of the new senior cabinet members said or did and lambast them for it" approach to reviewing the new cabinet.  Seriously if you want to put people in jobs who have actually tried things you will ALWAYS find something to pick apart.  Did Williamson blab to the wrong person about Huawei from a completely broken cabinet meeting? Quite probably. Will he learn from that?  Hell yes.  Does Priti Patel support the death penalty? Who cares?  We aren't going to bring it back so it doesn't matter.  Has Boris put together a committed team who are aligned to his vision and will lead to a Brexit on the 31st October?  Yes.  Good.  Get on with it and lets move on.

I agree with you in that you can find specifics that any single person, let alone MP, has said or done to beat them with and as reasonable, educated, individuals they should hopefully learn from the same. Though in the case of Johnson and Patel I would argue that it's more than just the odd comment here or there, how Patel is in high office is beyond me. 

 

It's pretty expected that newspapers, forums, radio shows etc are going to pick up on past indiscretions, comments etc of people in the news isn't it? That happens in every walk of life in the media from football to politics. Especially if said comments are of relevance to their new position. IE being in charge of national security when you are in favour of the death penalty, or being in favour of fracking when you are the environmental minister etc. Those stories will be gone within the week.

 

17 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

1. I am not saying Boris isn't privileged, please point me to a place where I have. I also don't think he is pretending to be a man o' the people though is he? Corbo is. 

 

2. Corbo is the leader of the official opposition currently, so  I would say he is fairly relevant in these discussions. He could terrifyingly be in a position in a few months to set up his own government 'shudder'. Forgive me for posting about him in the Politics thread. 

 

3. What I am saying about Boris, and I have my reservations about him, about his cabinet BUT we don't know his policies, we don't know what he is going to do. We are basing on the voting record of some people and based on the fact we don't like them because they are EVIL RICH or Tories or have beliefs we don't agree with. I think really we would be better to judge him on his actions and the actions of his cabinet when they are in power. If in 12 months time we don't like it and he has eaten the poor at the Palace of Westminster then fair enough but the hyperbole now is a little OTT. We are better to work with and have discussions with people, instead of just closing down and saying no don't like them, will not deal with them. 

 

We have had about 4 pages of people telling us how the country has ended etc etc etc, we don't know anything yet about what he is actually going to do, or whether he can even get what he wants to do through parliament. 

1. I read it that you were using Corbyn's education and class as a stick to beat him whilst simultaneously suggesting that we should back Boris, seemed pretty ironic to me but perhaps I was wrong. All MPs have aspects of pretending to be a man of the people. Only a few weeks ago Boris was making out that he cared for Muslims because of his ancestors, for example. Blair and Cameron's faux love of football, etc etc. 

 

2. It's virtually every single post, even when not relevant you manage to twist it in. I agree that he shouldn't be in government and I suspect he never will be.

 

3. That's because this is a forum for debate. It wouldn't be much of a debate if we only spoke about things that have already happened. Predictions are made in politics all of the time and the fears that people have raised are not without foundation. Of course nobody knows what happens, we could all be living in utopia or we could be in nuclear war within 6 months. You're criticising a Corbyn government before they are in power based on your opinion of him and his history, how is this any different?

 

As i've said on here previously, no party really speaks for me at the moment so I'm not 'bashing the evil rich' because I favour the oppostion. I am utterly dismayed and depressed by the whole affair at the current time. It's a mess with anger, aggression and frustration boiling over on both sides, the country is divided and parliament too and there is no sign of an end to it all in the near future. We all want a world where Brexit is over in some shape or form so that other matters an be prioritised, but that world still seems a lifetime away and the prospect of a no deal brexit is a genuine concern for many people. 

[The Horse's Mouth]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

It’s been done to death hasn’t it?

Pretty much, we're so far gone now too you're in one camp or the other and nothing somebody says on the internet is going to moderate you to either side really

[RoboFox]

24 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Lets not forget the complaints about the Oxbridge set making up X% of the cabinet, as if having educated people running the country is a bad thing.

 

 

Nobody is saying that having educated people in power is a bad thing. 

 

It's about the disparity between the highly educated political elite vs. the large swathes of under-educated electorate.

 

And the former preying on the latter's fears under the guise of "bettering the country," where in reality it's always been about power-play and self-interest.

 

Let's be honest, the "Oxbridge set" can pretend to empathise with someone living in poverty on a London housing estate, or someone facing an uncertain future in a dying Northern industrial town, but the hyper-professionalisation of politics has led to a sort of monastic order governing the country, fuelling the belief in the population that we're governed by a separate, totally out-of-touch class.

 

I'd say that was the source of the complaints.

 

 

Edited 25 July 2019 by RoboFox

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, The Horse's Mouth said:

Pretty much, we're so far gone now too you're in one camp or the other and nothing somebody says on the internet is going to moderate you to either side really

Yes you’re either a racist or a traitor, pick a side.

[Izzy]

What a Cheerleader Boris is.

 

His 3 speeches so far (acceptance, outside no 10 & commons today) all have been incredibly upbeat, positive & can do.

 

I wonder how long he'll maintain this approach and I wonder what he'll say the moment things go south or wrong for him.

 

Maybe he's right and maybe this is exactly what the country needs right now, but I hope it's not all just 'sizzle' and no 'substance'.

 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Kopfkino said:

No of course I remember and that would have been a good thing to see. I'm certainly not saying they are model posters (there is no holier than thou element to my thoughts) or that we're not all guilty of some of these things, just really an observation that quality of discussion has dropped off a cliff, I attribute it to a lack of balance (and not for personal preference cos I find foxin's Corbyn obsession as tedious as anyone), but also thinking about it the better quality posters (are exceptions) don't appear as much. As I say, I have practically zero interest in American politics (but for crossover with policy areas that interest me) so I have little knowledge beyond the snippets picked up on Twitter but if there was something I know we might well have differing views but the discussion would be proper.

May I ask why?

 

I'm curious because it is an absolute bevy of economic and social discussion and often the decisions the US makes affect the entire world.

 

If you do ever decide to take an interest I'd be most happy to discuss policy with you.

[Innovindil]

8 minutes ago, Izzy said:

What a Cheerleader Boris is.

 

His 3 speeches so far (acceptance, outside no 10 & commons today) all have been incredibly upbeat, positive & can do.

 

I wonder how long he'll maintain this approach and I wonder what he'll say the moment things go south or wrong for him.

 

Maybe he's right and maybe this is exactly what the country needs right now, but I hope it's not all just 'sizzle' and no 'substance'.

 

Quick one Izzy, what do you think of the policies he's spouted atm? More money for police/nhs/schools and what have you?

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

Quick one Izzy, what do you think of the policies he's spouted atm? More money for police/nhs/schools and what have you?

Mate, it all sounds GRRRRRRREAT! Of course it does 

 

Maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age and I'll believe it when I see it. I'm just tired of hearing false promises not backed up by real action.

 

I'll get all hyped up and ra ra with the best of em when I actually see something happen, but until then it's all just words.

[Strokes]

4 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

 More money for police/nhs/schools and what have you?

He is a monster!

[Innovindil]

3 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Mate, it all sounds GRRRRRRREAT! 

That's the spirit Izzy. 

 

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

He is a monster!

You had the chance to say trumplet and you ruined it. Good job donkey. 

[Foxin_Mad]

14 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

I agree with you in that you can find specifics that any single person, let alone MP, has said or done to beat them with and as reasonable, educated, individuals they should hopefully learn from the same. Though in the case of Johnson and Patel I would argue that it's more than just the odd comment here or there, how Patel is in high office is beyond me. 

 

It's pretty expected that newspapers, forums, radio shows etc are going to pick up on past indiscretions, comments etc of people in the news isn't it? That happens in every walk of life in the media from football to politics. Especially if said comments are of relevance to their new position. IE being in charge of national security when you are in favour of the death penalty, or being in favour of fracking when you are the environmental minister etc. Those stories will be gone within the week.

 

1. I read it that you were using Corbyn's education and class as a stick to beat him whilst simultaneously suggesting that we should back Boris, seemed pretty ironic to me but perhaps I was wrong. All MPs have aspects of pretending to be a man of the people. Only a few weeks ago Boris was making out that he cared for Muslims because of his ancestors, for example. Blair and Cameron's faux love of football, etc etc. 

 

2. It's virtually every single post, even when not relevant you manage to twist it in. I agree that he shouldn't be in government and I suspect he never will be.

 

3. That's because this is a forum for debate. It wouldn't be much of a debate if we only spoke about things that have already happened. Predictions are made in politics all of the time and the fears that people have raised are not without foundation. Of course nobody knows what happens, we could all be living in utopia or we could be in nuclear war within 6 months. You're criticising a Corbyn government before they are in power based on your opinion of him and his history, how is this any different?

 

As i've said on here previously, no party really speaks for me at the moment so I'm not 'bashing the evil rich' because I favour the oppostion. I am utterly dismayed and depressed by the whole affair at the current time. It's a mess with anger, aggression and frustration boiling over on both sides, the country is divided and parliament too and there is no sign of an end to it all in the near future. We all want a world where Brexit is over in some shape or form so that other matters an be prioritised, but that world still seems a lifetime away and the prospect of a no deal brexit is a genuine concern for many people. 

1. Not in the slightest, I find it amusing the way Corbyn likes to position himself as a normal chap, when he is absolutely nothing like a normal chap, even more perplexing that people buy it.

 

2. I think he is quite relevant in the politics section, I am happy to agree if I discus him elsewhere I am sure. 

 

In relation to point 3, I would suggest my view of the Labour government is based on their current proposed policies and spending commitments, which also have a history globally (socialism) of never successfully delivering.

 

As of yet we don't know fully what Boris will do or how he will do it. 

 

In fairness to Boris he has announced a program of things he intends to do domestically, in addition to sorting Brexit. If he achieves what he says he will then he will have done well IMO, and I would expect quite a few people will benefit. 

[Kopfkino]

12 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

May I ask why?

 

I'm curious because it is an absolute bevy of economic and social discussion and often the decisions the US makes affect the entire world.

 

If you do ever decide to take an interest I'd be most happy to discuss policy with you.

Just always been far more interested in European politics and the EU than the US. Only have limited time and cognition and I'd much rather read about what's going on in Berlin, Stockholm or Brussels than Washington. I'll probably be more keenly following US trade policy soon with the looming trade dispute with the EU but even then I'm more interested in the Franco-German element of it. And I guess the Fed is the only thing I pay attention to in the US (ME policy as well tbf but that's again cos I follow the ME) and even then I probs pay more attention to the ECB. Couldn't tell you what unemployment is in the US but I was straight on finding Spain's this morning. 

 

Tbf I'm always surprised by the proportionate lack of interest in Europe and the EU compared to the US, I appreciate US politics impacts the world to a greater extent but these are countries on our doorstep and a supranational institution we're part of.

[David Guiza]

31 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yes you’re either a racist or a traitor, pick a side.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Kopfkino said:

Just always been far more interested in European politics and the EU than the US. Only have limited time and cognition and I'd much rather read about what's going on in Berlin, Stockholm or Brussels than Washington. I'll probably be more keenly following US trade policy soon with the looming trade dispute with the EU but even then I'm more interested in the Franco-German element of it. And I guess the Fed is the only thing I pay attention to in the US (ME policy as well tbf but that's again cos I follow the ME) and even then I probs pay more attention to the ECB. Couldn't tell you what unemployment is in the US but I was straight on finding Spain's this morning. 

 

Tbf I'm always surprised by the proportionate lack of interest in Europe and the EU compared to the US, I appreciate US politics impacts the world to a greater extent but these are countries on our doorstep and a supranational institution we're part of.

Interesting, thank you.

 

Two observations about my own habits in response: I tend to keep an eye on what Beijing is doing as much as Washington seeing as they're comparatively similar in stature these days - though Chinese news doesn't tend to be that noteworthy as they don't really even pretend that they're good guys when it comes to running their country freely and so there's not that much hypocrisy and room for discussion about the notion of it all. Also, as I tend to focus on the social side of politics rather than the economic and as the US is something of an outlier among the OECD countries when it comes to such things, they tend to be the more attractive talking point.

[Finnegan]

43 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

 

Should we all be racist now father!?