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The Politics Thread 2019

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25 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

 While I may agree with their stance, the twee and cringeworthy image of some of these Remain protesters really does the cause no good at all. If there is ever to be a second referendum then a lot of people campaigning for Remain need to wise up a bit and stop treating the people they're trying to win over as stupid and uneducated, and cut out the "let's be jolly British about this" type crap, otherwise 2016 is doomed to repeat itself regardless of how the reality of what Brexit means has changed between then and now.

 

we're on a similar page but I'm not sure what else there is to do about it? some people are just jolly and twee about things. tbh, I wish I felt jolly and twee about Brexit at the moment but it's a ****ing horror-show and I'm angry, upset and worried. and to be fair to them, they pretty much are trying to win over people who are stupid and uneducated. the only other people who are on the list of people to be won over are lost causes - entrenched, in a 'war' with snow-flakes - dangerous people to whom no amount of twee banner waving is going to convince anyway. and what's the other option - treat those dangerous people as the enemy and go out on the hunt to bash them down? that'll just make them as bad as people like Goddard. 

 

I can't really see how else there is to go about it other than being upbeat, polite and ironically very British in humour about it. they're demonstrating in about the most British way possible. funny banners, floats, etc. that's the sort of protest you're going to get from generally positive, progressive, peaceful people. you only have to look to the Extinction Rebellion movement to see another way of doing it - perhaps, maybe; they could head down that slightly more serious route but that'll just rile the brexiteers even more. I do feel that the civil disobedience route is right for climate change and I'm happy to see how much it's really kicking off around the country and the world. people forget that none of this brexit shit is going to matter when it's 50deg in the summer and we've got mass displacement of people because they will die if they stay where they live currently. 

 

the only route I can see is continuing as they have done. next mass march I'll be down there - probably without funny banner in hand, but there none-the-less. it's getting towards crunch time now. 

 

and finally - I agree that the tone needs to change but it needs to change from the politicians and the media. They've got us into this mess, they need to get us out. Unfortunately when you've got the BBC giving time to idiots like marc francois going on like we're in WW2 still and the Sun ****ing about with Johnson as the tellytubby sun on the front page it's hard to be optimistic. With such media in the pocket of the current government, their boards made up of conservatives and money going into their pockets from Westminster I highly doubt we'll see a change in narrative in enough important places any time soon. I genuinely think we're ****ed at this stage. I can't convince my wife to use her job to get us out of this country but if I could we'd be gone. I genuinely can see us sitting there in 5 years time with diminished value in our house, diminished savings in our bank and a horrible, horrible atmosphere in this country wondering why the **** we didn't get out when I warned her. I can clearly, clearly see the scene in my mind and it scares the living daylights out of me.  

 

edit: @Voll Blau I won't be able to reply again as I've hit my post limit for the day. :rolleyes:

 

 

Edited by lifted*fox
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2 hours ago, Wortho said:

I remember when the public were told that we must join the euro. The country would go in to meltdown and it would be like the Depression. 

Let's face it you or your "experts" haven't got a clue what will happen. 

But I believe in democracy, do you?

Parroting Farage and Co. pretty much word for word.

 

Plenty of evidence to suggest that we will struggle in Brexit regardless, companies have left/leaving or reducing workforce and outputs and our currency is nowhere near as strong as it was before the referendum and doesnt look like recovering any time soon. You don’t need an expert to tell you that things aren’t looking good.

 

Blind faith and optimism in Brexit won’t pay the bills or put food on the table, despite what the Brexiteers are peddling.

 

I feel sorry for people that have fallen for this claptrap but there is no arguing with them at this point, they want their Brexit and they will sacrifice pretty much anything to get it.

 

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2 hours ago, Wortho said:

I remember when the public were told that we must join the euro. The country would go in to meltdown and it would be like the Depression. 

Let's face it you or your "experts" haven't got a clue what will happen. 

But I believe in democracy, do you?

Do believe that people from EU countries living in the UK should have been able to vote in the referendum, considering they are directly affected by the result? 

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53 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Yeah, I was being slightly facetious. Obviously that bellpiece Goddard (hate that he's from Leicestershire to boot) is a disgrace, and seems to be continuously plastered across the news so it's laughable for anyone to claim Leave voters aren't protesting and making arses of themselves by comparison (especially when confronted with the evidence twice *cough cough*).

 

While I may agree with their stance, the twee and cringeworthy image of some of these Remain protesters really does the cause no good at all. If there is ever to be a second referendum then a lot of people campaigning for Remain need to wise up a bit and stop treating the people they're trying to win over as stupid and uneducated, and cut out the "let's be jolly British about this" type crap, otherwise 2016 is doomed to repeat itself regardless of how the reality of what Brexit means has changed between then and now.

I see what you are saying but if people are still swayed more by how annoying the other side is than objective facts then we are doomed anyway. This idea of "I voted out because remainers called me thick and racist" (though I realise that is not exactly what you are saying) is ludicrous. 

Edited by bovril
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1 hour ago, bovril said:

I see what you are saying but if people are still swayed more by how annoying the other side is than objective facts then we are doomed anyway. This idea of "I voted out because remainers called me thick and racist" (though I realise that is not exactly what you are saying) is ludicrous. 

I don't think it's people's sole reason, but I do think that kind of attitude rubbed a few up the wrong way while they were deciding which way to vote because, unfortunately, image counts for a lot of voters. When all's said and done, Remain needs to do everything it can to avoid the kind of false stereotypes perpetuated by chief Leavers about the kind of people who support it if it's to stand any chance in any potential second vote. Campaigners for it need to think a bit smarter sometimes.

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42 minutes ago, bovril said:

I see what you are saying but if people are still swayed more by how annoying the other side is than objective facts then we are doomed anyway. This idea of "I voted out because remainers called me thick and racist" (though I realise that is not exactly what you are saying) is ludicrous. 

True that.

 

However, the question is: How many of the "Leavers" did actually vote to leave the EU because they felt "marginalized" or "oppressed" by other UK citizens? Sounds a bit far-fetched to me. It takes the debate down to a personal level, and is not objective enough anymore.

 

Maybe you're simply underestimating the amount of British or English people critical of the EU and seeing no real benefit in the construct itself or the power of the UK's alleged influence within the EU?

 

I think individual countries should be able to maintain a certain national identity, without going overly nationalistic or extreme right-wing. Skepticism towards the EU should always be warranted, no? Would you take anything the EU does as gospel? The British are proud of their cultural heritage, being able to criticize and mock their princes, kings, queens and MPs and having done so no end in the past, yet suddenly no criticism of a massive European union that is slowly, but steadily turning into a superstate? I don't understand it.

Edited by MC Prussian
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7 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

True that.

 

However, the question is: How many of the "Leavers" did actually vote to leave the EU because they felt "marginalized" or "oppressed" by other UK citizens? Sounds a bit far-fetched to me. It takes the debate down to a personal level, and is not objective enough anymore.

 

Maybe you're simply underestimating the amount of British or English people critical of the EU and seeing no real benefit in the construct itself or the power of the UK's alleged influence within the EU?

 

I think individual countries should be able to maintain a certain national identity, without going overly nationalistic or extreme right-wing. Skepticism towards the EU should always be warranted, no? Would you take anything the EU does as gospel? The British are proud of their cultural heritage, being able to criticize and mock their princes, kings, queens and MPs and having done so no end in the past, yet suddenly no criticism of a massive European union that is slowly, but steadily turning into a superstate? I don't understand it.

I am fairly Eurosceptic and don't particularly want 'more Europe' but my family live in an area of strong Leave support and I haven't met many people who are able to explain their issues with the EU as much as some pragmatic remainers. I do think there is a sense of people voting out because they felt forgotten by the rest of the UK, and the EU referendum gave them the way to take back control from those they felt had ignored them.

To your final point, I think it's also inevitable that in the modern world individual nations will lose some of their identity but don't see how being in the EU made it worse. Italians seem to do pretty well at maintaining their identity. 

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3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

:dunno: It's one of a litany of such incidents (over 1,000 so far) - this is just one of them. ICE can and are detaining people who are US citizens - that is not twisting anything, that is detailed in black and white in the article itself.

 

If you're looking for sympathy for the poor overworked border enforcers, then look somewhere else - if they don't like the heat they're getting, they can always quit. Plenty of job opportunities have opened up due to their sterling work, after all. :D

These roughly 1'500 incidents took place in the space between 2012 and 2018:

https://nypost.com/2018/04/27/ice-wrongfully-detained-nearly-1500-americans-report/

 

And the most extreme cases mentioned are to me but that - extreme cases. Obviously no one deserves that treatment. But why use exceptions to prove a rule?

1'500 incidents in a total of six years compared to three million cases overall in the same time period  (roughly half a million cases per year on average) suddenly don't look as bad any longer. You do the math.

 

Given the fact that - again - there's a massive influx of migrants at the Southern Border between the US and Mexico and not enough manpower or infrastructure to deal with the situation (partly down to the Democrats blocking attempts at adding additional funding for the facilities), hardly surprising.

The numbers are roughly up 100% compared to last year - and that in the first six months of 2019 alone.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/new-border-surge-prompts-10-jump-in-2019-prediction-to-1-072-000-illegal-immigrants

 

And I find your criticism of ICE agents rather childish. Just as bad as Trump's rhetoric aimed at those four particular congresswomen.

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9 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

These roughly 1'500 incidents took place in the space between 2012 and 2018:

https://nypost.com/2018/04/27/ice-wrongfully-detained-nearly-1500-americans-report/

 

And the most extreme cases mentioned are to me but that - extreme cases. Obviously no one deserves that treatment. But why use exceptions to prove a rule?

1'500 incidents in a total of six years compared to three million cases overall in the same time period  (roughly half a million cases per year on average) suddenly don't look as bad any longer. You do the math.

 

Given the fact that - again - there's a massive influx of migrants at the Southern Border between the US and Mexico and not enough manpower or infrastructure to deal with the situation (partly down to the Democrats blocking attempts at adding additional funding for the facilities), hardly surprising.

The numbers are roughly up 100% compared to last year - and that in the first six months of 2019 alone.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/new-border-surge-prompts-10-jump-in-2019-prediction-to-1-072-000-illegal-immigrants

 

And I find your criticism of ICE agents rather childish. Just as bad as Trump's rhetoric aimed at those four particular congresswomen.

It's still nearly 1,500 incidents too many. Perhaps that's a bit too perfect solution fallacy for one's liking but I've never been keen on the idea of "collateral damage" (as you might put it) when it comes to such things. Perhaps others think that the ends justify the means, though.

 

WRT the criticism, I didn't ever claim to be a dispassionate discusser at all times, nor a saint - I find the specifics of the job they do and especially the extremes they go to distasteful to my own world view and I'm definitely not going to apologise for nor roll that back, so feel free to be as sanctimonious as you wish.

Edited by leicsmac
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9 hours ago, leicsmac said:

It's still nearly 1,500 incidents too many. Perhaps that's a bit too perfect solution fallacy for one's liking but I've never been keen on the idea of "collateral damage" (as you might put it) when it comes to such things. Perhaps others think that the ends justify the means, though.

 

WRT the criticism, I didn't ever claim to be a dispassionate discusser at all times, nor a saint - I find the specifics of the job they do and especially the extremes they go to distasteful to my own world view and I'm definitely not going to apologise for nor roll that back, so feel free to be as sanctimonious as you wish.

In a perfect world, yes.

 

However, no border patrol agency in the world is faultless. That it's only come down to 1'500 incidents in six years means you have about a 0.05% chance of being wrongfully arrested as a US citizen.

In the end, ICE agents are doing or trying to do their job just like an other person.

 

What would a world without national borders be and look like in your opinion? Would it be better? More liberated? Less chaotic?

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29 minutes ago, bovril said:

I am fairly Eurosceptic and don't particularly want 'more Europe' but my family live in an area of strong Leave support and I haven't met many people who are able to explain their issues with the EU as much as some pragmatic remainers. I do think there is a sense of people voting out because they felt forgotten by the rest of the UK, and the EU referendum gave them the way to take back control from those they felt had ignored them.

To your final point, I think it's also inevitable that in the modern world individual nations will lose some of their identity but don't see how being in the EU made it worse. Italians seem to do pretty well at maintaining their identity. 

So as a Eurosceptic and a member of the EU (still), how do you think your vote matters in EU parliamentary elections or can make a difference? Especially given the fact that you can only vote for the Parliament, which is a rather weak chamber in political terms.

 

As for Italy, they are currently the most likely to quit the Eurozone:

https://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/1140562/italy-news-eurozone-euro-currency-eu-debt-fine

 

The success of the Cinque Stelle movement coupled with the Salvini government mean Euroscepticism dominates Italian politics as of right now.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-22/the-eu-is-more-worried-about-italy-than-brexit

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34 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

How about passing a motion that the best candidate is put forward? I don't care if the people standing for election in my constituency are male, female, black, white, Chinese, gay, straight etc. They could be a purple skinned, one olegged, Welsh lesbian transvestite for I all ****ing care, just as long as they are the best their party can find and they believe in their cause, then it happy days. The positive discrimination is why we end up with simpletons like Liz Truss in government.

 

Can a lesbian be a transvestite?

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1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

Can a lesbian be a transvestite?

I hadn't really given it much thought.

 

I thought the Welsh part was probably going too far tbh.

Edited by Facecloth
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4 hours ago, Dames said:

Parroting Farage and Co. pretty much word for word.

 

Plenty of evidence to suggest that we will struggle in Brexit regardless, companies have left/leaving or reducing workforce and outputs and our currency is nowhere near as strong as it was before the referendum and doesnt look like recovering any time soon. You don’t need an expert to tell you that things aren’t looking good.

 

Blind faith and optimism in Brexit won’t pay the bills or put food on the table, despite what the Brexiteers are peddling.

 

I feel sorry for people that have fallen for this claptrap but there is no arguing with them at this point, they want their Brexit and they will sacrifice pretty much anything to get it.

 

I think you'll find that 52% of the electorate want to leave. Can't you get over that. What ever you think  most of the people want to leave. 

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4 hours ago, Voll Blau said:

Yeah, I was being slightly facetious. Obviously that bellpiece Goddard (hate that he's from Leicestershire to boot) is a disgrace, and seems to be continuously plastered across the news so it's laughable for anyone to claim Leave voters aren't protesting and making arses of themselves by comparison (especially when confronted with the evidence twice *cough cough*).

 

While I may agree with their stance, the twee and cringeworthy image of some of these Remain protesters really does the cause no good at all. If there is ever to be a second referendum then a lot of people campaigning for Remain need to wise up a bit and stop treating the people they're trying to win over as stupid and uneducated, and cut out the "let's be jolly British about this" type crap, otherwise 2016 is doomed to repeat itself regardless of how the reality of what Brexit means has changed between then and now.

I agree with this entirely. Posting reasoned arguments about the benefits of remaining is quite acceptable, and you could argue may turn the heads of some leave voters were there to be another referendum, the irony however is a lot of posters on here over the past 3 years labelling Leave voters as 'thick' and uneducated really is counter productive and negates the positive contributions many have delivered because once you have done that and shown your own ignorance, your contribution has been denuded

 

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31 minutes ago, The Guvnor said:

I agree with this entirely. Posting reasoned arguments about the benefits of remaining is quite acceptable, and you could argue may turn the heads of some leave voters were there to be another referendum, the irony however is a lot of posters on here over the past 3 years labelling Leave voters as 'thick' and uneducated really is counter productive and negates the positive contributions many have delivered because once you have done that and shown your own ignorance, your contribution has been denuded

 

See I don't think thats entirely true. I think some people do label leavers as whole as thick, I'm not denying that, but a lot of the conversations on here over the last few years has gone along the lines of 

 

Remainer - Some leaver the other day made a really stupid comment about why they voted to leave/made a horribly racist comment

Leaver - Oh so all leavers are stupid/racist

Remainer - No, I just said this one group I met was

Leaver - Well that's clearly shaping your view of us, you clearly think we all stupid/racist

Remainer - No, I never said that

Leaver - You did

 

And on and on it would go. Happened numerous times. 

Edited by Facecloth
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8 hours ago, lifted*fox said:

 

Brexiteers - you can tick one or several tbh:

1. Rich and want to stay rich so the thought of Corbyn taxing them slightly harder / spreading a little wealth scares them to death. Would rather brexit and watch everyone else suffer.

2. Racist and want less coloured faces living on their street. Happy to be poorer if it means less foreigners kicking about.

3. Born just after the war, didn't live through it to feel the effects but romanticise about how we were once a great country and want a little taster of that.

4. From a poor part of the country, possibly badly educated and lap up what they read in the Sun / Daily Mail - bit Nationalist; probably fly the England flag from a window at home / on a van. Got caught up in the hype and don't understand the adverse effects. 

5. Sick of austerity and thought they'd stick it to the man by voting out of the EU when it's actually our own government who've shafted us for 9 years; adverse effect - you voted for more austerity. Oops.

6. You don't live here anymore but decided you'd whack your pro-brexit vote in from your villa in Spain forgetting the fact it'll **** you up as well OR you voted out, seen what a farce it is and you're wealthy enough to scarper off somewhere else. 

7. Several of the above and you know you've made the wrong choice but you've doubled down on it too long / too hard to give up so 'brexit means brexit' let's do it anyway.

8. You voted to leave the EU in good faith, you unfortunately believed all the guff and bluster and now realise that remaining is clearly the better option and you're able to admit it - good on you, genuinely. 

 

I literally have not met a single person who voted for brexit that didn't slip into one of the above categories, tbh. You can excuse people who maybe fall into catagories like 4 and 5 - they might go hand in hand. I think a lot of those types would change their mind given the chance. Nobody with even a couple of brain-cells votes to make themselves jobless / poorer. If you're a number 8 then fair play - takes a lot to admit it but you see it on here quite regularly. 

 

Remainers - generally people who were quite OK with how things were ticking along. Probably not overly rich / overly poor but intelligent enough to see through the propaganda before the referendum. Probably weren't that entrenched in politics until they realised that their freedoms / children's freedoms were under attack. Realise that the EU isn't the source of all their woes and want to see a government that tackles genuine issues like poverty, homelessness, climate change / wealth distribution across the UK and understands that all of that can be done whilst within the EU. Turned out in tens of thousands for marches in good nature, with funny signs, caused no trouble and generally want to see peace across Europe. Generally a broad spectrum but lots of young people who worry about their futures, their ability to travel, work and love freely across 27 countries. People who want to live happily and peacefully alongside all races / LGBT in their communities and understand the value that a diverse society can bring (has already brought) to the UK.

 

:dunno:

 

No4 They are most likely to have suffered the direct consequences of freedom of movement No5 Austerity is worshipped by the EU.We now know that it has sharp teeth and it will bite you if you step out of line.Yet it is more than happy to keep its rich mates in clover with its Q/E policy’s of recent times.These actions put a lot of pro EU people off.

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56 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

See I don't think thats entirely true. I think some people do label leavers as whole as thick, I'm not denying that, but a lot of the conversations on here over the last few years has gone along the lines of 

 

Remainer - Some leaver the other day made a really stupid comment about why they voted to leave/made a horribly racist comment

Leaver - Oh so all leavers are stupid/racist

Remainer - No, I just said this one group I met was

Leaver - Well that's clearly shaping your view of us, you clearly think we all stupid/racist

Remainer - No, I never said that

Leaver - You did

 

And on and on it would go. Happened numerous times. 

I'm sorry, really I am, but wtf dude. :crylaugh:

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