The VAR thread

[Super_horns]

2 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

What happening at your club? Injuries?

Sorry, haven’t watched anything of you except MOTD, so not sure if it’s as bad as it looks really 

Just let in too many goals and not scored enough basically!

 

-14 GD and only 2 goals in a game once says it all !!

[Facecloth]

30 minutes ago, Super_horns said:

Just let in too many goals and not scored enough basically!

 

-14 GD and only 2 goals in a game once says it all !!

But it's basically the same squad as the one that's done so well over that the last few seasons. You've not really lost any one. The players that have impressed over the last few years are still there. What changed? Was the squad in need of a massive overhaul and it's gone stale?

Edited 7 October 2019 by Facecloth

[Guest Cujek]

16 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

But it's basically the same squad as the one that's done so well over that the last few seasons. You've not really lost any one. The players that have impressed over the last few years are still there. What changed? Was the squad in need of a massive overhaul and it's gone stale?

This 

 

Watford for me was one of the better teams I saw last season against us

[ThaiFox]

Now we've seen the problems that VAR have caused, and how it's just throwing up the same confusion and problems without sorting out much at all, I wonder if we started the poll again from scratch if the results would change even more?

 

Only 20% of voters 'love it'. 

 

I reckon the 52% of 'somewhere in between' would swing heavily towards 'hate it' if we re ran the poll, and I'd also bet that the 20% 'love it' votes would not increase.

[TheMightySystem]

2 hours ago, ThaiFox said:

Now we've seen the problems that VAR have caused, and how it's just throwing up the same confusion and problems without sorting out much at all, I wonder if we started the poll again from scratch if the results would change even more?

 

Only 20% of voters 'love it'. 

 

I reckon the 52% of 'somewhere in between' would swing heavily towards 'hate it' if we re ran the poll, and I'd also bet that the 20% 'love it' votes would not increase.

I'm someone that was for VAR but how its implimented in the prem makes me want rid of it. The offside calls I have no problem with as offside is offside in my book but its the clear and obvious error that annoys me. Make it so if VAR think a wrong decision may have been made get the ref to look at it himself, that way VAR is not overruling the ref, instead allowing him to have a different view of a situation and change his mind if he feels he has made the wrong decision. Just seems pointless to have this technology but to not actually use it for difficult situations which would surely benefit the most from it?

[st albans fox]

21 minutes ago, TheMightySystem said:

I'm someone that was for VAR but how its implimented in the prem makes me want rid of it. The offside calls I have no problem with as offside is offside in my book but its the clear and obvious error that annoys me. Make it so if VAR think a wrong decision may have been made get the ref to look at it himself, that way VAR is not overruling the ref, instead allowing him to have a different view of a situation and change his mind if he feels he has made the wrong decision. Just seems pointless to have this technology but to not actually use it for difficult situations which would surely benefit the most from it?

But surely the var asking the ref to relook at it says they must feel he may need to change his mind ??

 

could this not lead to loads of reviews as many decisions are quite subjective 

[ThaiFox]

1 hour ago, st albans fox said:

But surely the var asking the ref to relook at it says they must feel he may need to change his mind ??

 

could this not lead to loads of reviews as many decisions are quite subjective 

And again, this is the problem. Here are two former referees decisions on the Albrighton penalty.

 

Keith Hackett said Mane dived and it was not a penalty.

 

Dermot Gallagher said Albrighton caught him so it was a penalty.

 

Therefore if those two had been the VAR officials we'd still be waiting for a decision now!

 

The whole system has been poorly introduced. It's not been properly thought through, and not enough time has been given for VAR to be properly effective.

[ThaiFox]

2 hours ago, TheMightySystem said:

I'm someone that was for VAR but how its implimented in the prem makes me want rid of it. The offside calls I have no problem with as offside is offside in my book but its the clear and obvious error that annoys me. Make it so if VAR think a wrong decision may have been made get the ref to look at it himself, that way VAR is not overruling the ref, instead allowing him to have a different view of a situation and change his mind if he feels he has made the wrong decision. Just seems pointless to have this technology but to not actually use it for difficult situations which would surely benefit the most from it?

Again, what about the report that showed VAR can be as much as 13-14 cms out on offside decisions? And watch the Andy Gray clip on the early pages of this thread. 

 

If you take into account VAR can be as much as 13-14 cms out, at least four goals to my recollection would have stood, including Son's offside against us.

[TheMightySystem]

18 minutes ago, ThaiFox said:

Again, what about the report that showed VAR can be as much as 13-14 cms out on offside decisions? And watch the Andy Gray clip on the early pages of this thread. 

 

If you take into account VAR can be as much as 13-14 cms out, at least four goals to my recollection would have stood, including Son's offside against us.

Can I just point you to this reddit thread here as I believe the 13-14cm is incorrect. The top comment in particular.

"Everyone should be aware that the only source for VAR running at 50 frames per second is that Sky HDTV broadcasts at 50 frames per second.

The VAR officials absolutely have access to video running at a higher framerate than that broadcasted out on Sky, so the entire basis of this argument is defunct. The margin of error for 120 fps video would be 5.7cm per frame, 240fps 2.85cm, and 500fps ~1.4cm.

Edit: Ultra-Motion Cameras provided by Hawk-Eye work up to 340 fps. The VAR system uses 8 slow-motion and 4 ultra-motion cameras

With a 340 fps utra-motion camera, the "margin of error" using the Daily Mail's 23.4kph (which isn't sourced either lol) from one frame to another would be 1.91cm."

[ThaiFox]

2 minutes ago, TheMightySystem said:

Can I just point you to this reddit thread here as I believe the 13-14cm is incorrect. The top comment in particular.

"Everyone should be aware that the only source for VAR running at 50 frames per second is that Sky HDTV broadcasts at 50 frames per second.

The VAR officials absolutely have access to video running at a higher framerate than that broadcasted out on Sky, so the entire basis of this argument is defunct. The margin of error for 120 fps video would be 5.7cm per frame, 240fps 2.85cm, and 500fps ~1.4cm.

Edit: Ultra-Motion Cameras provided by Hawk-Eye work up to 340 fps. The VAR system uses 8 slow-motion and 4 ultra-motion cameras

With a 340 fps utra-motion camera, the "margin of error" using the Daily Mail's 23.4kph (which isn't sourced either lol) from one frame to another would be 1.91cm."

Reading section 3 of that graphic agrees with what I said, and clearly shows there can be as much as a 13 cms error. Which is the point Andy Gray made in his analysis on the Stirling goal, and as written above.

 

That 13 cm has been enough to disallow several goals this season, which could have actually been onside and has ended up being as controversial as any refereeing decision.

 

 

[TheMightySystem]

17 minutes ago, ThaiFox said:

Reading section 3 of that graphic agrees with what I said, and clearly shows there can be as much as a 13 cms error. Which is the point Andy Gray made in his analysis on the Stirling goal, and as written above.

 

That 13 cm has been enough to disallow several goals this season, which could have actually been onside and has ended up being as controversial as any refereeing decision.

 

 

You have missed the comment below that mentions how the VAR cameras run at a higher fps then 50 (What sky is broadcast in) which results in an actual frame by frame difference of 1.91cm instead of 13cm.

[jammie82uk]

3 hours ago, TheMightySystem said:

I'm someone that was for VAR but how its implimented in the prem makes me want rid of it. The offside calls I have no problem with as offside is offside in my book but its the clear and obvious error that annoys me. Make it so if VAR think a wrong decision may have been made get the ref to look at it himself, that way VAR is not overruling the ref, instead allowing him to have a different view of a situation and change his mind if he feels he has made the wrong decision. Just seems pointless to have this technology but to not actually use it for difficult situations which would surely benefit the most from it?

I was and still am for VAR but not for how it’s currently being used, the screens are at the grounds for a reason, I’m not asking for all decisions to be viewed by the ref on the screen but something clearly contentious like the mane penalty should be

[ThaiFox]

3 minutes ago, TheMightySystem said:

You have missed the comment below that mentions how the VAR cameras run at a higher fps then 50 (What sky is broadcast in) which results in an actual frame by frame difference of 1.91cm instead of 13cm.

I got that bit.

 

 

The point Andy Gray was making in his analysis, was the exact time the ball left the foot of the pass. Whatever speed you watch it at, VAR cannot possibly pin point the exact moment it left the boot of the player who passes. This is where the 13-14 cms error scenario comes into play.

[jammie82uk]

1 hour ago, ThaiFox said:

And again, this is the problem. Here are two former referees decisions on the Albrighton penalty.

 

Keith Hackett said Mane dived and it was not a penalty.

 

Dermot Gallagher said Albrighton caught him so it was a penalty.

 

Therefore if those two had been the VAR officials we'd still be waiting for a decision now!

 

The whole system has been poorly introduced. It's not been properly thought through, and not enough time has been given for VAR to be properly effective.

 

We wouldn't be as the onfield ref has the overall power and the final say on the incident  

[ThaiFox]

1 minute ago, jammie82uk said:

 

We wouldn't be as the onfield ref has the overall power and the final say on the incident  

So what's the point of VAR?!!!

[st albans fox]

48 minutes ago, ThaiFox said:

So what's the point of VAR?!!!

To correct the on field ref if he makes a 100% certain error

 

 

[ThaiFox]

13 hours ago, st albans fox said:

To correct the on field ref if he makes a 100% certain error

 

 

You have made some interesting points in favour of, or defending VAR, and I am always open to any point which may change my mind.

 

But I just struggle with the whole concept. Certainly in it's current form.

 

Obviously it's there to correct 100% certain errors, but it's not doing that, as explained by Andy Gray in the above clip on offside, and the incorrect decisions we've seen so far on penalties, and red cards. And just who on the VAR panel decide what is a 100% certain error and how do they decide? Do they vote? Do they pick straws? Do they do rocks paper scissors? 

 

One human's dubious decision is another man's 100% certain error!

 

VAR is viewed by humans, the referee is human. Therefore VAR human error mistakes and different human views on a particular situation will always occur which will continue to ensure there are just as many controversial decisions as before.

 

Even in our own matches, I can think of several decisions which VAR has reviewed, but after the match ex referees have said was the wrong VAR decision, including two red cards in the Bournemouth match, and Albrighton's penalty. 

 

There have already been far too many dubious decisions by VAR for anyone to claim it's adding anything to our game, improving referee standards, or making things fairer. 

[Al-aLondon-Foxile]

15 hours ago, ThaiFox said:

And again, this is the problem. Here are two former referees decisions on the Albrighton penalty.

 

Keith Hackett said Mane dived and it was not a penalty.

 

Dermot Gallagher said Albrighton caught him so it was a penalty.

 

Therefore if those two had been the VAR officials we'd still be waiting for a decision now!

 

The whole system has been poorly introduced. It's not been properly thought through, and not enough time has been given for VAR to be properly effective.

My view on this is simple. The question is has Mane exaggerated his reaction to Albrighton’s foot? I think that is clear simulation, he also holds the opposite foot to feign injury, and so therefore he’s cheated, regardless of contact. If this was taken forward and VAR adjudicated on this basis then the diving and simulation would stop. I also think retrospective punishment should be involved. Stop the cheating. 

[st albans fox]

28 minutes ago, ThaiFox said:

You have made some interesting points in favour of, or defending VAR, and I am always open to any point which may change my mind.

 

But I just struggle with the whole concept. Certainly in it's current form.

 

Obviously it's there to correct 100% certain errors, but it's not doing that, as explained by Andy Gray in the above clip on offside, and the incorrect decisions we've seen so far on penalties, and red cards. And just who on the VAR panel decide what is a 100% certain error and how do they decide? Do they vote? Do they pick straws? Do they do rocks paper scissors? 

 

One human's dubious decision is another man's 100% certain error!

 

VAR is viewed by humans, the referee is human. Therefore VAR human error mistakes and different human views on a particular situation will always occur which will continue to ensure there are just as many controversial decisions as before.

 

Even in our own matches, I can think of several decisions which VAR has reviewed, but after the match ex referees have said was the wrong VAR decision, including two red cards in the Bournemouth match, and Albrighton's penalty. 

 

There have already been far too many dubious decisions by VAR for anyone to claim it's adding anything to our game, improving referee standards, or making things fairer. 

I hate it mate.  I said from the start that i didn’t want it. I highlighted many of the problems we would have with it last year ..... but I didn’t realise just how defensive of the on field official it would be ....... so it needed to be publicised far better that VAR really isnt doing much apart from checking for offside (hate this part - if you need to get those coloured lines out and review them for twenty seconds then it’s linesman’s call imo) and for 100% missed offences (no discussion as to whether it was an offence) in the build up to a goal that means it should be chalked off.  Plus mistaken ID

 

At at the moment, people think that VAR is re refereeing the game and it isn’t ........... if our expectations are lowered then perhaps it can work with some further adjustments but I would still prefer it left to the on field officials until technology can improve to make everything faster and clearer.  And even then, an improvement in the quality of officials should take care of clear and obvious errors being missed like henry’s handball.  Perhaps we need a few more officials out there to help. 

[Ian Nacho]

It's being used as a Video Assistant Lineman at the moment. 

[shade]

said it before, i'll say it again, it's just not football. remember "my mates the ref"? hilarity wouldn't have ensued with VAR.

[ThaiFox]

8 hours ago, Al-aLondon-Foxile said:

My view on this is simple. The question is has Mane exaggerated his reaction to Albrighton’s foot? I think that is clear simulation, he also holds the opposite foot to feign injury, and so therefore he’s cheated, regardless of contact. If this was taken forward and VAR adjudicated on this basis then the diving and simulation would stop. I also think retrospective punishment should be involved. Stop the cheating. 

As I've said in other posts on this forum, cheating has been encouraged by the FA and referees. If a player doesn't go down under contact he doesn't get a penalty. Referees just don't, or vary vary rarely, give a penalty in the event of a player fouled but not falling, or diving.

 

And Managers, I'm sure, tell players to go over. Sean Dyche has said as much. It's worth the risk of a yellow card to gain a penalty, rather than not going over where one won't be given.

 

I totally agree with you that VAR could stamp this out with retrospective action, and I for one would welcome that. It's probably the only thing it's good for. But again, the human element comes into play and one mans dive is another mans foul. Ex referee Hackett (no penalty - a dive) Ex referee Gallagher (penalty - a foul).

 

If VAR looked at that Liverpool penalty with retrospective action and VAR decides it was a dive. What's the punishment?

 

Do they award us a point for a draw and deduct 2 from Liverpool? Do they punish Mane with a ban (which doesn't change the initial unfair decision, or help us, and may in fact go against us because Mane could be banned against teams we are in competition for a league place), do they deduct Liverpool points for their player cheating? Could the match be replayed? Then you'll get the appeals which go to the supreme court and overrule the VAR decision!

 

VAR has opened so many can of worms. It has not been properly thought through.

[ThaiFox]

8 hours ago, st albans fox said:

I hate it mate.  I said from the start that i didn’t want it. I highlighted many of the problems we would have with it last year ..... but I didn’t realise just how defensive of the on field official it would be ....... so it needed to be publicised far better that VAR really isnt doing much apart from checking for offside (hate this part - if you need to get those coloured lines out and review them for twenty seconds then it’s linesman’s call imo) and for 100% missed offences (no discussion as to whether it was an offence) in the build up to a goal that means it should be chalked off.  Plus mistaken ID

 

At at the moment, people think that VAR is re refereeing the game and it isn’t ........... if our expectations are lowered then perhaps it can work with some further adjustments but I would still prefer it left to the on field officials until technology can improve to make everything faster and clearer.  And even then, an improvement in the quality of officials should take care of clear and obvious errors being missed like henry’s handball.  Perhaps we need a few more officials out there to help. 

I'm a little surprised you hate it after some of your replies to my posts! I thought you were in favour of VAR! I must have missed some of your early posts. Sorry about that! Have enjoyed the debate though and you've put points over that have made me think.

 

Totally agree with those coloured lines for offsides. Totally agree about offenses missed during the build up to a goal. Totally agree with things being left to the on field officials.

 

The one bit I can't agree with is yet more officials!! Every extra official is sure to reach different conclusions and just add confusion to the game, so no better than VAR.

 

Totally agree that we must get the referees we have to the highest possible standards to officiate properly, and let them make all the on field decisions.

[TheUltimateWinner]

Yes I know it’s the international break but I’m still angry at how badly VAR is being implemented 

 

 

[jmono84]

On 09/10/2019 at 08:03, Al-aLondon-Foxile said:

My view on this is simple. The question is has Mane exaggerated his reaction to Albrighton’s foot? I think that is clear simulation, he also holds the opposite foot to feign injury, and so therefore he’s cheated, regardless of contact. If this was taken forward and VAR adjudicated on this basis then the diving and simulation would stop. I also think retrospective punishment should be involved. Stop the cheating. 

Absolutely!! I’ve had enough of this contact go down talk!! Mentioned it before on here, it’s out right cheating and something needs to be done... it happens in every game all over the pitch and refs must see a player going down after bullshit min contact but without hesitation give a free kick or peno... it’s by far the worst thing in today’s game and needs to be sorted.