FT General Election Poll 2019

[peach0000]

11 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

Is not state ownership and control of the means of production a Marxist theory?

 

That's pretty much in their manifesto. Ownership of business to workers, share dividends to the state.

Yes the first statement is true. But Labour only want to do this to things like rail and water which are pretty normal things to be state owned. The UK has a very extreme for of capitalism and to roll that back slightly is not Marxist, it’s just putting us back into line with the rest of the world. I’m not disagreeing with the fact that Corbyn is extremely left wing, potentially dangerously so, I’m just disagreeing with the use of the word Marxist. As someone who has extensively studied Marxism it has been winding me up seeing thrown round so easily.

[Foxin_Mad]

6 minutes ago, bovril said:

I find it baffling that people will predict a Labour government would see our economy massively suffer, our standing in the World diminish and Scottish and Irish nationalism boosted (which are perfectly legitimate predictions to make)..... but then vote for a Tory Brexit.

 

But I guess that's the wonderful choice we find ourselves with. I'm hoping for a hung parliament and both leaders fvcked off asap. 

I think it's true. It is a case which is the least bad.

 

For me the deal with EU is a deal at least, I would prefer not to leave the eu but appreciate that's unlikely.

 

I feel a Labour customs union deal would be worse than Boris deal. And a Corbyn government would do more damage than Brexit to any economy.

[bovril]

Just now, Foxin_Mad said:

I think it's true. It is a case which is the least bad.

 

For me the deal with EU is a deal at least, I would prefer not to leave the eu but appreciate that's unlikely.

 

I feel a Labour customs union deal would be worse than Boris deal. And a Corbyn government would do more damage than Brexit to any economy.

Possibly it would, but if it's that disastrous it'll be five years at least, and the chances of him winning a majority are practically zero anyway.

 

What worries me about the deal is that if we are willing to effectively give up N. Ireland at this stage, fvck knows what we'll be willing to give up in the future negotiations either with the EU or other countries. The Johnson-led Conservatives are a complete wrecking ball at this stage. 

[Foxin_Mad]

1 minute ago, peach0000 said:

Yes the first statement is true. But Labour only want to do this to things like rail and water which are pretty normal things to be state owned. The UK has a very extreme for of capitalism and to roll that back slightly is not Marxist, it’s just putting us back into line with the rest of the world. I’m not disagreeing with the fact that Corbyn is extremely left wing, potentially dangerously so, I’m just disagreeing with the use of the word Marxist. As someone who has extensively studied Marxism it has been winding me up seeing thrown round so easily.

If your believe Corbyn and McDonnell maybe.

 

They are Liars, as big a liars as Boris.

 

Rail and Water, and Post and Energy all privately owned by investors to be purchased at a rate decided by a Labour parliament. Would that not put off foreign investment? 

 

Then after saying nothing else was at risk of nationalisation McDonnell later decides he wants half of BT, instantly bankrupting every competitor and losing thousands of jobs by offering FREE broadband, because he is a compulsive liar who cang be trusted.

 

They also want 10% of every business employing over 250 people to give to the workers, workers get £500 off dividends the rest goes to the state

 

He also wants to re-educate us on the British empire.

 

Seems pretty extreme to me.

 

I wouldn't say we have a extreme capitalist economy either - not compared to the US, Singapore to name but a few.

 

We are very much a social democracy, a very successful one. We are a small country with one of the richest economies on earth.

 

Yes it's not perfect, yes there are improvements to be made, there are some who need more help but on the whole for the vast majority we have good jobs, nice homes and things to enjoy.

 

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater and selecting an extreme Socialist really isn't going to help the people on little old Britain become richer, denying the British empire existed isn't going to help us on a global level as a small island off the coast of Europe.

 

We were once great, we still are and we should be proud.

 

We have a country where those who work hard can be successful and free.

[Dr The Singh]

Anyone know what BNP's manifesto is?

[Facecloth]

4 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

Anyone know what BNP's manifesto is?

Open door immigration from Asia.

[Kopfkino]

34 minutes ago, bovril said:

I find it baffling that people will predict a Labour government would see our economy massively suffer, our standing in the World diminish and Scottish and Irish nationalism boosted (which are perfectly legitimate predictions to make)..... but then vote for a Tory Brexit.

 

But I guess that's the wonderful choice we find ourselves with. I'm hoping for a hung parliament and both leaders fvcked off asap. 

Well that's entirely the problem of modern politics, opinions have become uncoupled for overarching principles and instead are governed by feelings largely dictated by how matters are framed for us. All of which is made worse by the fact our politicians are weathercocks rather than principled actors governed by ideas like Tony Benn or Keith Joseph, further exacerbated by the addiction to the minor dopamine hit that comes from social media gotcha moments. 

 

If you thinks it's going to change when these two leaders change then you're naive. It needs a change from the 'winner takes all' system we have and a more general change in our information consumption/reaction. 

[leicsmac]

35 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

I think the likes of Momentum are well proven to be quite hateful.

 

Some of the instances of hate from them go beyond name calling, its physical and mental intimidation and property damage. I know many Tory offices have been daubed with hate messages.

 

If hard work is not a reason for some form of success then really what is the point of education and huge proposed spending on it. If we are all equal, all on equal pay then what is the point in learning new skills.

 

The point of education is to better yourself, to broaden your horizons. If the state control your horizon then why push boundaries.

 

If a bio chemist gets paid the same as someone not in work or a shop worker, why bother with the 7 year degree? Why  other with a masters if no one deserves this money?

From your own point of view, certainly. But they are hardly the only group engaging in tactics of that type, which is rather my point - the idea that there has to be an "Us and Them", driven by people so certain about their ideological exactitude, no matter what their ideology, often ends up in the places you describe right there - and worse. And with respect, you have bought into that same system by saying that there is You and Momentum, and that You must be Right and Momentum must be Wrong.

 

It's the extremis of viewpoints that is the problem, not the viewpoints themselves.

 

WRT hard work, I did say that it is most often fiction than fact, in that while working hard is the best way to get yourself materially wealthy it's by no means a guarantee of it, and perhaps there are better things than insane amounts of material wealth anyway. Not quite sure where you got the idea that I wanted everyone to be remunerated equally from - though again, it's just possible that people might want to do a job because they like it rather than simply for the payslip, material wealth not being the be-all and end-all. You don't often hear someone on their deathbed moaning about not having made enough moolah in their lives, after all.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Well that's entirely the problem of modern politics, opinions have become uncoupled for overarching principles and instead are governed by feelings largely dictated by how matters are framed for us. All of which is made worse by the fact our politicians are weathercocks rather than principled actors governed by ideas like Tony Benn or Keith Joseph, further exacerbated by the addiction to the minor dopamine hit that comes from social media gotcha moments. 

 

If you thinks it's going to change when these two leaders change then you're naive. It needs a change from the 'winner takes all' system we have and a more general change in our information consumption/reaction. 

What I have been trying to say in one line. Thanks Kopf.

[Foxin_Mad]

35 minutes ago, bovril said:

Possibly it would, but if it's that disastrous it'll be five years at least, and the chances of him winning a majority are practically zero anyway.

 

What worries me about the deal is that if we are willing to effectively give up N. Ireland at this stage, fvck knows what we'll be willing to give up in the future negotiations either with the EU or other countries. The Johnson-led Conservatives are a complete wrecking ball at this stage. 

It would be quite quick if the took office. The financial markets ie 75% our economy would be terrified, having seen the manifesto with good reason.

 

Brexit is a mess, a Labour customs unions is very much playing politics. The Parliamentary Labour party are remainers, Corbyn and McDonnell historically are leavers, some of the manifesto is not legal under EU laws and probably wouldn't be appreciated in any deal negotiations.

 

A customs union is worse than being in the EU you are tied to the EU with no say in your decisions or its decisions, really the ultimate worst of all worlds. Either stay or make the jump with conviction.

 

We can agree its not great either way. But it's good to see such good reasoning going on! It just proves that people talking and not being envious or hateful is the best way forward.

[Foxin_Mad]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

From your own point of view, certainly. But they are hardly the only group engaging in tactics of that type, which is rather my point - the idea that there has to be an "Us and Them", driven by people so certain about their ideological exactitude, no matter what their ideology, often ends up in the places you describe right there - and worse. And with respect, you have bought into that same system by saying that there is You and Momentum, and that You must be Right and Momentum must be Wrong.

 

It's the extremis of viewpoints that is the problem, not the viewpoints themselves.

 

WRT hard work, I did say that it is most often fiction than fact, in that while working hard is the best way to get yourself materially wealthy it's by no means a guarantee of it, and perhaps there are better things than insane amounts of material wealth anyway. Not quite sure where you got the idea that I wanted everyone to be remunerated equally from - though again, it's just possible that people might want to do a job because they like it rather than simply for the payslip, material wealth not being the be-all and end-all. You don't often hear someone on their deathbed moaning about not having made enough moolah in their lives, after all.

I don't think anyone can argue momentum aren't hateful.

 

There are other factions to the far right that are hateful yes. Are they as poularist in the UK as the Labour party, not currently. To my knowledge there isn't an official faction of the Tory party or Lib Dems that goes around scrawling hate graffiti on Labour voters homes and offices. That is dangerous in a main stream political party, its divisive. Its trump level abhorrent yet its accepted because its Labour and they are the good.

 

It's not all about material wealth though, it's fairly basic better living, better access to a broader range of services, better food, wider opportunities. You cant have some of these things if you dont work for them. Why should somebody who put 5 years into a degree they love not have better opportunities and money than someone who couldn't. Even bankers who everyone's hates work damned hard with long hours in pretty awful conditions to get to the stage where they make decent money 

 

Some people I am sure do do a job because they love it, I love my job but there come a point when the state take so much if it it's just not worth the effort anymore. I am sure most would rather not be working and enjoying sunrises and sunsets but of course the old adage is the more money you earn the better home you have, the better food, the better opportunities to experience other cultures. Unless the world fundamentally changes globally we aren't sadly going to be here just to enjoy stuff for free paid for by the rich.

[twoleftfeet]

On 27/11/2019 at 22:50, twoleftfeet said:

Whilst as some suggest the is more to life than money. The is more to Brexit than economics.

 

 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

I don't think anyone can argue momentum aren't hateful.

 

There are other factions to the far right that are hateful yes. Are they as poularist in the UK as the Labour party, not currently. To my knowledge there isn't an official faction of the Tory party or Lib Dems that goes around scrawling hate graffiti on Labour voters homes and offices. That is dangerous in a main stream political party, its divisive. Its trump level abhorrent yet its accepted because its Labour and they are the good.

 

It's not all about material wealth though, it's fairly basic better living, better access to a broader range of services, better food, wider opportunities. You cant have some of these things if you dont work for them. Why should somebody who put 5 years into a degree they love not have better opportunities and money than someone who couldn't. Even bankers who everyone's hates work damned hard with long hours in pretty awful conditions to get to the stage where they make decent money 

 

Some people I am sure do do a job because they love it, I love my job but there come a point when the state take so much if it it's just not worth the effort anymore. I am sure most would rather not be working and enjoying sunrises and sunsets but of course the old adage is the more money you earn the better home you have, the better food, the better opportunities to experience other cultures. Unless the world fundamentally changes globally we aren't sadly going to be here just to enjoy stuff for free paid for by the rich.

You underestimate the far right in the UK, I think - but again, I guess that's a matter of perspective.

 

Material wealth doesn't have to be the mechanism by which all of the things you mention are granted to you, and I honestly think that with advances in automation, the world can and should change fundamentally in terms of how much work someone has to do. Unless, of course, the present social structure is maintained despite the opportunity for advancement by those who like their existing power and don't much want to let go of it.

 

Such sea-changes in the past have often been met with such cries of "it can't be done" or "it shouldn't be done".

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, twoleftfeet said:

Whilst as some suggest the is more to life than money. The is more to Brexit than economics.

There is indeed. For some people the idea of nation, of tribe, of being Us and striving to be superior to and asserting power over Them is worth more than the money - because material wealth is only one way of asserting that power.

 

But, rest assured - it is still about power and feelings of superiority, even if it is not economic.

[Spiritwalker]

1 hour ago, Foxin_Mad said:

I think the likes of Momentum are well proven to be quite hateful.

 

Some of the instances of hate from them go beyond name calling, its physical and mental intimidation and property damage. I know many Tory offices have been daubed with hate messages.

 

If hard work is not a reason for some form of success then really what is the point of education and huge proposed spending on it. If we are all equal, all on equal pay then what is the point in learning new skills.

 

The point of education is to better yourself, to broaden your horizons. If the state control your horizon then why push boundaries.

 

If a bio chemist gets paid the same as someone not in work or a shop worker, why bother with the 7 year degree? Why  other with a masters if no one deserves this money?

Have you been sniffing glue? Who has said bio chemists will getting paid the same as shop workers?

[Guest MattP]

Are both sides trying to lose?

 

 

[Facecloth]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

Are both sides trying to lose?

 

 

Who on for the Tories, Liz Truss? 

[Tuna]

6 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Who on for the Tories, Liz Truss? 

Rishi Sunak.

[twoleftfeet]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

1 hour ago, Spiritwalker said:

Have you been sniffing glue? Who has said bio chemists will getting paid the same as shop workers?

Putting up the minimum wage to £10 will lead to a rise to a lot more people than just those on minimum wage many of those that are currently supervisors etc or skilled will want more than those on minimum wage i think is ghe point i dont begrudge any one earning £10 per hour by why would i take on a little extra responsibility for no more cash.

 

[Nick]

1 hour ago, Spiritwalker said:

Have you been sniffing glue? Who has said bio chemists will getting paid the same as shop workers?

Christ, now we are getting confused with communism 😆 

[Dr The Singh]

3 hours ago, Facecloth said:

Open door immigration from Asia.

Wouldn't waste my vote on that

[Lionator]

I don't want this to turn into whatabouttary but the conduct of the Tory party (BJ & Priti) has been absolutely vile since Friday's events and sadly people are lapping it up.

 

I would not expect them to take part responsibility for the incident however the fabrication and manipulation used in response to the incident is a disgrace to the two people who passed away.

 

They've lied about the law changes, they've lied about the sentencing date of Khan, they've denied that chronic budget cutting and underfunding of the police, prison and probationary service has lead to yet another terrorist incident on the tory watch and are using the situation to push through draconian measures (as the victim's father eloquently put it). 

 

Sociopaths, absolute sociopaths, they want to take your rights away, your freedom away and destroy your public services. I could NEVER vote for them.

 

(And yes I am aware of the issues on the other side).

[Salisbury Fox]

6 hours ago, Spiritwalker said:

Have you been sniffing glue? Who has said bio chemists will getting paid the same as shop worker

4 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

Christ, now we are getting confused with communism 😆 

No I think we are still talking about Marxism, just that someone has cherry picked something from what was said in an effort to detract from the point that was being made. If you define Marxism as being about class struggle with predominant public ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange then it’s not really much of a stretch for people to conclude that this is what Labour are offering. Especially when McDonnell has openly talked favourably about it in the past.

[theessexfox]

1 minute ago, Salisbury Fox said:

 

Nationalisation, ie public ownership of predominantly public utilities, is not the same as public ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange - it's not like the FTSE 100 or Amazon are suddenly going to be in the hands of the workers or the state.

[Salisbury Fox]

2 minutes ago, theessexfox said:

Nationalisation, ie public ownership of predominantly public utilities, is not the same as public ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange - it's not like the FTSE 100 or Amazon are suddenly going to be in the hands of the workers or the state.

Of course, but just as most rightly do not trust Boris, I find it hard to trust McDonnell who has openly praised its merits.
 

With regards nationalisation on the scale being proposed, coupled with share price setting and various other proposals it is hard to see a detrimental impact on investment and pensions. In my mind this is a worse risk than Brexit.