FT General Election Poll 2019

[RobHawk]

43 minutes ago, Lionator said:

 

The amount of lies in this article is staggering. The major one, Khan was sentenced in 2012 not 2008 as Johnson claims.

I never read the papers if I can help it, especially shit like the mail but this intrigued me. 

 

**** me, no wonder the countries ****ed if this is the level of journalism. 

 

It's bad enough that the this terrible incident that led to the deaths of 2 people is the latest political football, but our sitting prime minister being allowed to share this level of bullshit without an ounce of scrutiny is unreal. 

 

I'm astounded tbh and won't be picking up a paper anytime soon.

[Footballwipe]

And now we're into plagiarism  

 

 

[RobHawk]

1 minute ago, Footballwipe said:

And now we're into plagiarism  

 

 

He's an absolute shithouse

[LiberalFox]

Maybe there's a bit about Abbott behind the Telegraph paywall but all I see is a link to their own article https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/12006589/If-John-McDonnell-wants-to-abolish-MI5-he-should-just-say-so.html

 

Nothing about Abbott, but McDonnell getting caught out hanging out with the hard left. Seems like textbook McDonnell but I don't think anyone actually think he'd want to "disband the police" or whatever. 

 

Why do I care about Abbott? Well it bothers me that people will go for the "just as bad as each other" view when comparing her to Patel, a woman with the motivation and means to implement some disastrous authoritarian measures as home secretary.  

Edited 1 December 2019 by LiberalFox

[Nalis]

49 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Was tempted early on by the lib dems and revoke early on, pre the calling of the election. The more I thought about it I thought we need a second referendum rather than revoking so I've gone to labour. That said I don't really want Corbyn as PM, but I really don't want Johnson either. I think the best we can hope for is a minority tory government, and labour are closer to the Tories where I live so hopefully that's one seat that'll swing and stop a tory majority.

Agreed on most of that, I'm kind of swaying a similar way to labour from lib dem.

[Spiritwalker]

I was toying with the idea of voting Lib Dem but now I’m definitely voting Labour.

 

[Jonaldinho]

I voted Labour in the poll above but will vote Lib Dem in my constituency (Newbury) as they're the only ones who stand a choice of dislodging the Tories there. We had Richard Benyon since 2005 and he was popular, but he's stepped down now and the Tory candidate is a woman nobody's heard of and isn't really from the area. She said she voted Remain but would vote for Boris's deal, and the constituency is marginally Remain, plus the Lib Dems are popular here, so it'll be interesting.

[Foxin_Mad]

I still find it baffling that people have a go at Boris for being a liar which he is, then in the same sentence say they will vote for Labour.

 

Seriously Corbyn and McDonnell must be 2 of the most untrustworthy Marxists in politics. Also their fake crying over human rights is a nonsense, they will happily champion Marxism which has killed millions and failed in every attempt whilst blaming the Tories for cutting spending Money they didn't have. They blame US/Allies for any middle eastern conflict, for terrorism, whilst saying Russian annexation of Crimiea was ok due to Nato provoking Russia 'so its ok as Russia are commie friends'. They refuse to acknowledge problems in Venezuela because it's a Socislist utopia. Involved with the Iranian state possibly some of the most shady questionable human rights violaters and 'global climate emergency' pollution generators anywhere. But what ever suits his bizarre twisted Marxist agenda. Freinds with some of the most questionable  people on the planet. These men are dangerous they will do or say anything to get into power, they are both dangerous nasty spiteful individuals who should be feared. They believe the young shouldn't have to work hard to earn a living and those who may have worked hard have no right to a high wage.

 

I genuinely fear for this nation and it's people should they ever get into power. I will do anything I can to stop them.

[Guest MattP]

48 minutes ago, Jonaldinho said:

I voted Labour in the poll above but will vote Lib Dem in my constituency (Newbury) as they're the only ones who stand a choice of dislodging the Tories there. We had Richard Benyon since 2005 and he was popular, but he's stepped down now and the Tory candidate is a woman nobody's heard of and isn't really from the area. She said she voted Remain but would vote for Boris's deal, and the constituency is marginally Remain, plus the Lib Dems are popular here, so it'll be interesting.

If the Tories lose Newbury they aren't winning a majority unless they absolutely sweep the North.

 

I still can't see many of these remain seats going yellow - on polling day even Tory remainers will know they are facilitating a Corbyn led government by voting Lib Dem.

[Nick]

15 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

I still find it baffling that people have a go at Boris for being a liar which he is, then in the same sentence say they will vote for Labour.

 

Seriously Corbyn and McDonnell must be 2 of the most untrustworthy Marxists in politics. Also their fake crying over human rights is a nonsense, they will happily champion Marxism which has killed millions and failed in every attempt whilst blaming the Tories for cutting spending Money they didn't have. They blame US/Allies for any middle eastern conflict, for terrorism, whilst saying Russian annexation of Crimiea was ok due to Nato provoking Russia 'so its ok as Russia are commie friends'. They refuse to acknowledge problems in Venezuela because it's a Socislist utopia. Involved with the Iranian state possibly some of the most shady questionable human rights violaters and 'global climate emergency' pollution generators anywhere. But what ever suits his bizarre twisted Marxist agenda. Freinds with some of the most questionable  people on the planet. These men are dangerous they will do or say anything to get into power, they are both dangerous nasty spiteful individuals who should be feared. They believe the young shouldn't have to work hard to earn a living and those who may have worked hard have no right to a high wage.

 

I genuinely fear for this nation and it's people should they ever get into power. I will do anything I can to stop them.

I’d call it Democratic Socialism - it’s not really Marxism. I don’t agree with a lot of it - it’s just not really Marxism - it’s just a label right wing media publications use to frame and shame.

 

 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

I’d call it Democratic Socialism - it’s not really Marxism. I don’t agree with a lot of it - it’s just not really Marxism - it’s just a label right wing media publications use to frame and shame.

 

 

"Red Scare" still resonates in a few places, and those media outlets know that.

 

It's like folks have to have something that they fear and/or hate in order to drive them (though most often they don't see it that way obviously), and that fuels an adversarial system where there has to be two or more "sides" - based on ideology, economic wealth, other forms of power or whatever.

 

I don't get it - is the instinct to be tribal and then seek to thwart the "other tribe" really that strong? It's just always seemed rather pointless to me.

[Foxin_Mad]

2 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

I’d call it Democratic Socialism - it’s not really Marxism. I don’t agree with a lot of it - it’s just not really Marxism - it’s just a label right wing media publications use to frame and shame.

 

 

I cant agree.

 

Some of the stuff is straight out of a Marxist book.

 

I think many Labour voters are getting New Labour, even old Labour confused with Corbyns Labour.

 

It's far removed from what we see in proper democratic socialist countries like Scandinavia.

 

Policies such as mass nationalisation at below market value, free state broadband, seizing a percentage  of business and giving it to the 'workers', mass reunionisation and power to unions, 4 day weeks, this all leads towards a state control over the means of production, we know where that goes. It doesn't end well, particularly  when 75% of you economy relies on a service sector dealing in effectively non existent money, that can be relocated when conditions are not optimal.

 

I would happily see a return to a decent Labour leader, our local Labour MP is good but I can not support Corbyn or McDonnell.

 

The envious hateful nature of momentum and the current Labour lot is quite unbecoming of the party really. Attlee would be disgusted in such hateful rhetoric.

[peach0000]

Anyone who claims Corbyns labour is ‘marxist’ either have a bad understanding of Marxism or are being deliberate provocative to scare people into not voting for him. 

[Foxin_Mad]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

"Red Scare" still resonates in a few places, and those media outlets know that.

 

It's like folks have to have something that they fear and/or hate in order to drive them (though most often they don't see it that way obviously), and that fuels an adversarial system where there has to be two or more "sides" - based on ideology, economic wealth, other forms of power or whatever.

 

I don't get it - is the instinct to be tribal and then seek to thwart the "other tribe" really that strong? It's just always seemed rather pointless to me.

But they are self confessed Marxists. I think most of the hate is coming from Momentum and the poitics of envy towards nasty rich men 'who dont deserve' their wages whilst the young apparently should not have to work 'hard' to get on in life.

 

Its backwards hateful divisive rhetoric. I cant honestly see how that is promoting a fair society filled with aspiration and opportunity. Quite frankly it says if you have something we want we will take it, if you have worked hard and have money you dont deserve it, if you haven't worked hard its doesn't matter because we will take it off those who have.

 

Quite frankly that will end badly quite quickly for a lot of people.

 

Calculations show for most small business 12-18 months down the line due to higher taxes, higher minimum wage, potential 4 days weeks, green energy taxes. A business profitable today could be loss making in a year, that's terrifying. How many jobs will be lost, how many will be offshore to less regressive states?

[Foxin_Mad]

6 minutes ago, peach0000 said:

Anyone who claims Corbyns labour is ‘marxist’ either have a bad understanding of Marxism or are being deliberate provocative to scare people into not voting for him. 

Really...its isn't. Your head is in the cloud if you think that Corbyn and McDonnell are not Marxists. You are pretending so you can justify still voting for the red rosette.

 

https://reaction.life/even-marx-would-be-shocked-by-corbyns-plans-for-a-socialist-revolution/

[ithuriel]

To be honest, if it were not for the, we are scrapping Brexit regardless stance of the LibDems, they look at least less of a shit show than the others.

 

[David Guiza]

Naturally awful events like Friday will always be politicised, but it is utterly deplorable that Patel and Johnson are using the London Bridge attacks as fodder when it's the exact opposite of what Jack Merritt would seemingly have wanted. Not to mention the fact that they are outright lying about cases and facts that can be easily researched.

 

Sick to death of Patel in particular, her draconian ideas are not going to solve anything. Yes Abbot isn't a damn sight better either, but that doesn't make Patel any more appealing.  

[peach0000]

9 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

Really...its isn't. Your head is in the cloud if you think that Corbyn and McDonnell are not Marxists. You are pretending so you can justify still voting for the red rosette.

 

https://reaction.life/even-marx-would-be-shocked-by-corbyns-plans-for-a-socialist-revolution/

Never said who I was voting for. I was simply just pointing out that although some of Labours policies could be described as being a form of extreme socialism, it just plainly is false to describe labour as Marxist. The labour policies lack the fundamentals of Marxism and to suggest they would pursue a Marxist agenda is pure speculation with little evidence.

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

But they are self confessed Marxists. I think most of the hate is coming from Momentum and the poitics of envy towards nasty rich men 'who dont deserve' their wages whilst the young apparently should not have to work 'hard' to get on in life.

 

Its backwards hateful divisive rhetoric. I cant honestly see how that is promoting a fair society filled with aspiration and opportunity. Quite frankly it says if you have something we want we will take it, if you have worked hard and have money you dont deserve it, if you haven't worked hard its doesn't matter because we will take it off those who have.

 

Quite frankly that will end badly quite quickly for a lot of people.

 

Calculations show for most small business 12-18 months down the line due to higher taxes, higher minimum wage, potential 4 days weeks, green energy taxes. A business profitable today could be loss making in a year, that's terrifying. How many jobs will be lost, how many will be offshore to less regressive states?

 

34 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

"Red Scare" still resonates in a few places, and those media outlets know that.

 

It's like folks have to have something that they fear and/or hate in order to drive them (though most often they don't see it that way obviously), and that fuels an adversarial system where there has to be two or more "sides" - based on ideology, economic wealth, other forms of power or whatever.

 

I don't get it - is the instinct to be tribal and then seek to thwart the "other tribe" really that strong? It's just always seemed rather pointless to me.

I'm sorry, but this is a textbook example of the bolded. It is very easy to say that groups such as Momentum are spouting hate (and they may well be) but it's much harder to look in the mirror and realise that you yourself are part of the same divisive system they are part of, only on the flip side of the coin.

 

The way you see the world needs to be in terms of who has what power might actually not be the correct one, thought that of course depends on what exactly it is you want from the future, I guess.

 

One thing I will say about a supposed link between hard work and prosperity is that it is more often fiction than it is fact, and that I personally do not envy those with power as I know how much it corrupts - I simply want to see them cease abusing it, by however necessary.

[Leicester_Loyal]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

I still can't see many of these remain seats going yellow - on polling day even Tory remainers will know they are facilitating a Corbyn led government by voting Lib Dem.

I think this is true. People would rather leave with Boris's deal than have Corbyn as PM (as it stands).

[Nick]

27 minutes ago, Foxin_Mad said:

Really...its isn't. Your head is in the cloud if you think that Corbyn and McDonnell are not Marxists. You are pretending so you can justify still voting for the red rosette.

 

https://reaction.life/even-marx-would-be-shocked-by-corbyns-plans-for-a-socialist-revolution/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-is-a-bennite-socialist-but-he-is-not-a-marxist-1-8882195/amp
 

Take a look at the above. 
 

I’ve seen the report from Clifford Law and the FT which your link talks about - bit of right wing bias arguably there.... On an aside did you know that Rees Moggs father was editor of the times for 14 years? 

 

 

Edited 1 December 2019 by Nick

[Foxin_Mad]

10 minutes ago, peach0000 said:

Never said who I was voting for. I was simply just pointing out that although some of Labours policies could be described as being a form of extreme socialism, it just plainly is false to describe labour as Marxist. The labour policies lack the fundamentals of Marxism and to suggest they would pursue a Marxist agenda is pure speculation with little evidence.

Is not state ownership and control of the means of production a Marxist theory?

 

That's pretty much in their manifesto. Ownership of business to workers, share dividends to the state.

[Foxin_Mad]

2 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-is-a-bennite-socialist-but-he-is-not-a-marxist-1-8882195/amp
 

Take a look at the above. 

I dont see any evidence it Corbyn of that. To me that's been written by a Corbyn fan. Benn was a much kinder gentleman.

 

State control of the means of production, it's in Labours manifest, it's a theory of Marxism. The evidence is there.

 

Obviously it's up to individuals whether they are to blinkered by red rosettes to see it.

[bovril]

1 hour ago, Foxin_Mad said:

I still find it baffling that people have a go at Boris for being a liar which he is, then in the same sentence say they will vote for Labour.

 

I find it baffling that people will predict a Labour government would see our economy massively suffer, our standing in the World diminish and Scottish and Irish nationalism boosted (which are perfectly legitimate predictions to make)..... but then vote for a Tory Brexit.

 

But I guess that's the wonderful choice we find ourselves with. I'm hoping for a hung parliament and both leaders fvcked off asap. 

[Foxin_Mad]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

I'm sorry, but this is a textbook example of the bolded. It is very easy to say that groups such as Momentum are spouting hate (and they may well be) but it's much harder to look in the mirror and realise that you yourself are part of the same divisive system they are part of, only on the flip side of the coin.

 

The way you see the world needs to be in terms of who has what power might actually not be the correct one, thought that of course depends on what exactly it is you want from the future, I guess.

 

One thing I will say about a supposed link between hard work and prosperity is that it is more often fiction than it is fact, and that I personally do not envy those with power as I know how much it corrupts - I simply want to see them cease abusing it, by however necessary.

I think the likes of Momentum are well proven to be quite hateful.

 

Some of the instances of hate from them go beyond name calling, its physical and mental intimidation and property damage. I know many Tory offices have been daubed with hate messages.

 

If hard work is not a reason for some form of success then really what is the point of education and huge proposed spending on it. If we are all equal, all on equal pay then what is the point in learning new skills.

 

The point of education is to better yourself, to broaden your horizons. If the state control your horizon then why push boundaries.

 

If a bio chemist gets paid the same as someone not in work or a shop worker, why bother with the 7 year degree? Why  other with a masters if no one deserves this money?