Getting brexit done!

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

The problem with Scotland is they are run by a party with politics to the left of Corbyn/Momentum. 

And we still chuck a load of money at them with the Barnett formula. Mental.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, twoleftfeet said:

I would like referendum on English independence.

 

I wonder how that would pan out? After a referendum, England would presumably leave the UK.

 

Would Scotland, Wales & N. Ireland continue as the United Kingdom of Lesser Britain & N. Ireland?

 

What if Scotland & N. Ireland then buggered off, too, to go independent & join the EU and/or a united Ireland? Would Wales retain the rights to the UK name.....a bit like Ringo performing as The Beatles?

Post-Brexit, we might then need a hard border with Scotland.

 

What would happen to the Queen? She's Queen of the UK so would England need a new head of state or would she go independent, too, or become monarch of both nations - she could be Queen Elizabeth I of England, like James VI of Scotland became James I of England, though that might be a bit confusing with that ginger Tudor one, and a bit odd to have one reign just starting and the other having lasted almost 70 years. Or would the independent England be a republic?

 

What would happen to places like the Channel Islands, Isle of Man and all those Caribbean tax havens, which have an attachment to the UK but a different status? Could be important given that the wealth of lots of the richest Brits/English will be there.

 

What about the UK's seat on the UN Security Council? Would that stay with the rump UK of Scotland, Wales & N. Ireland? I can't see other global powers being happy about that - but just switching it to England would be challenged, too.

Then there's the armed forces. Lots of them are Scots and Welsh, aren't they? Who'd get all the squaddies - and the nukes?

 

You need to present some more detailed plans, mate! 

[davieG]

Chlorine-washed chicken and hormone-treated beef will be kept out of the UK under any trade deal with the US, the environment secretary has promised.

Theresa Villiers told the BBC the current European Union ban on the two foods will be carried over into UK legislation after Brexit.

Until now the UK has been wavering on the issue.

But she told BBC Countryfile: “There are legal barriers to the imports and those are going to stay in place.”

[davieG]

MPs have given their final backing to the bill that will implement the UK government's Brexit deal.

The Commons voted 330 to 231 in favour of the Withdrawal Agreement Bill and it will now pass to the House of Lords for further scrutiny next week.

If peers choose to amend it will it come back before MPs.

The bill covers "divorce" payments to the EU, citizens' rights, customs arrangements for Northern Ireland and the planned 11-month transition period.

The UK is due to leave the EU on 31 January.

The bill comfortably cleared its third reading in the House of Commons, as expected, with a majority of 99. All 330 votes in favour were Conservative.

It took just three days for the bill to pass the remaining stages in the Commons, after MPs gave their initial approval to the legislation before the Christmas recess.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, davieG said:

MPs have given their final backing to the bill that will implement the UK government's Brexit deal.

The Commons voted 330 to 231 in favour of the Withdrawal Agreement Bill and it will now pass to the House of Lords for further scrutiny next week.

 

So 89 MPs either abstained or were absent (650 MPs in total), including about 35 Tories.....a surprisingly high number for such an important bit of legislation. Lots paired off, plus the impact of a large majority, I presume?

 

Meanwhile, here's Katya Adler's analysis: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51039175

 

"The whisper in Brussels is that EU leaders will use Boris Johnson's tight schedule to prioritise bilateral relations of importance to them. Ongoing access for EU fishermen to UK waters, for example. A key concern for eight EU countries, including influential France. Just this week, French President Emmanuel Macron called on lead EU negotiator Michel Barnier to be tough, even cold-blooded, in talks. Fishing is a political hot potato for the prime minister. "Sovereignty over our seas" became a totemic Brexit issue, although it contributes little to UK GDP. But Mr Johnson will also be aware if he refuses the EU access to UK waters after Brexit, the EU will threaten to close its market to UK fish".

 

"But it's not yet clear how flexible the EU will be. Brussels believes it holds most of the cards in negotiations. Even the early EU concession that some kind of Free Trade Agreement can probably be reached by December - and that, in the words of President von der Leyen, the bloc "will go as far as it can go" - is a mixed blessing for the UK. The EU assumption is that, come the year's end, Prime Minister Johnson will want to demonstrate that He Did It. He took the UK out of the EU. He negotiated an FTA quicker than anyone thought possible. But will he seek that "victory" at any price? Even if the rushed result is flimsy, restrictive and involves key concessions by the UK?"

 

"The price Boris Johnson paid for getting rid of the infamous backstop in the divorce deal was high. In practical terms, when it comes to trade, it separates Northern Ireland from the rest of Great Britain. Something he, the leader of a unionist political party, said he would never do. The implementation of that Northern Ireland agreement still has to be hammered out this year in parallel to trade talks, by the way. How many checks, how much additional paperwork will there be in trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland? What about checks between Northern Ireland and Great Britain?"

 

"And even when it comes to the zero-tariffs, zero-quotas, post-Brexit trade deal the prime minister speaks about so often, the EU insists that to get it the UK must sign up to ongoing alignment with EU rules, like environmental and labour regulations. But Mr Johnson seeks the opposite. He says he wants to leave the EU to be free of its rules, in order to ease trade deals with others, like the United States. Yet the prime minister will know, if he refuses alignment with the EU, and the EU slaps on punitive tariffs, that could hurt his new supporters in manufacturing communities in the north of England. The UK car industry, chemicals industry, pharmaceutical industry and others are very worried indeed. It's no surprise really that the EU has declared itself willing to do a "quick and dirty" trade deal in goods. It has a trade surplus with the UK. What is surprising is that the prime minister has barely mentioned services during the last months even though they make up 80% of the UK economy. The EU is the UK's biggest customer for the service industry and Brussels does not intend to discuss most services before December".

[jammie82uk]

2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

So 89 MPs either abstained or were absent (650 MPs in total), including about 35 Tories.....a surprisingly high number for such an important bit of legislation. Lots paired off, plus the impact of a large majority, I presume?

Some conservatives are not eligible to vote such as the tellers 

 

here’s a breakdown of the rest

 

No non-Conservative MPs voted for the bill, with 167 out of the 202 Labour MPs – including all six contenders for the party leadership – voting against, along with 45 of the Scottish National Party’s 47 MPs and all 11 Liberal Democrats. The DUP’s eight MPs – who object to the prime minister’s plans for a customs border in the Irish Sea – did not vote.

[Alf Bentley]

15 minutes ago, jammie82uk said:

Some conservatives are not eligible to vote such as the tellers 

 

here’s a breakdown of the rest

 

No non-Conservative MPs voted for the bill, with 167 out of the 202 Labour MPs – including all six contenders for the party leadership – voting against, along with 45 of the Scottish National Party’s 47 MPs and all 11 Liberal Democrats. The DUP’s eight MPs – who object to the prime minister’s plans for a customs border in the Irish Sea – did not vote.

 

Thanks. The 8 DUP MPs and 35 Labour MPs abstaining explains a good chunk of the missing 89, along with Sinn Fein (7?), of course.

 

Still surprising that about 35 Tories didn't vote (only 2-3 tellers, I think?), but a curiosity rather than anything of major significance.

No doubt they'd been given permission to be absent by whips who knew the govt were guaranteed a decent majority - I just wouldn't have expected so many to miss such a big political moment.

[lgfualol]

It's all gone very quiet considering UK leave in 2 weeks. Is this cus the leavers and ring wing media got what they want? No need to report on it anymore?

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, lgfualol said:

It's all gone very quiet considering UK leave in 2 weeks. Is this cus the leavers and ring wing media got what they want? No need to report on it anymore?

I think it’s more the remainers and left have ‘accepted’ defeat and stopped behaving like hysterical children.

[lgfualol]

4 minutes ago, Strokes said:

I think it’s more the remainers and left have ‘accepted’ defeat and stopped behaving like hysterical children.

Hahaha as if people have accepted defeat. You probably just don't hear about the dirty remainers in your news feeds as much anymore. 

 

Anyway, any updates? No deal end of the month or is there enough time to make a very beneficial deal to the UK?

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, lgfualol said:

Hahaha as if people have accepted defeat. You probably just don't hear about the dirty remainers in your news feeds as much anymore. 

 

Anyway, any updates? No deal end of the month or is there enough time to make a very beneficial deal to the UK?

We leave at the end of the month with the deal negotiated in October. Then it’s onto trade, which needs to be done by December, otherwise it’s WTO terms.

Edited 13 January 2020 by Strokes

[Guest MattP]

5 hours ago, lgfualol said:

It's all gone very quiet considering UK leave in 2 weeks. Is this cus the leavers and ring wing media got what they want? No need to report on it anymore?

It's because we now know exactly what it going to happen for the immediate foreseeable future.

 

The only reason there was so much interest in the parliamentary votes before the election was because it was hard to predict a lot of the time how they would go, how the speaker would react to amendments and what the conclusion of all those things would be. 

 

It will still be big news on the 31st when we officially leave and I'm sure we'll have plenty of reporting, rumour and newsworthy items as soon as the transition period and trade talks start.

 

Think it's a bit daft to start looking for conspiracy theories on it already.

[Alf Bentley]

I'm braced for 31st January to be an all-round embarrassment fest:

- Farage's smug mug announcing it's "independence day"; 

- The more unhinged Remainers with EU brollies gathering to weep and sing "We shall overcome";

- The more unhinged Brexiteers with union jack waistcoats gathering to cheer and sing "Rule Britannia";

- A spike in racist morons abusing foreigners & "foreign-looking" people who haven't "gone home" yet....hopefully a brief interlude & media frenzy

 

Almost nothing will happen in February, I presume, as we'll be under all the same rules/systems, but with "third country" status and representation externally, not internally.

The EU27 have arranged to agree their joint negotiating strategy/priorities by late Feb, I think. Maybe a chance that will drag on, as they won't all necessarily agree?

 

So things might start to move from March - but probably slowly?

I suppose there'll be EU-UK disagreements over the negotiating process and priorities, but probably polite, low-key disagreements initially.....

It will be interesting to see what the UK's priorities are - that's very unclear, so far (and might be subject to more internal rows within the Tory party). The EU's priorities are a lot clearer.

 

June/July will be a significant moment, in theory, as that's the deadline for the UK to request an extension to the transition period. I presume we won't do so.

Though I'm sure some means of arranging an extension would be found in the 2nd half of the year if both sides wanted it......but that's unlikely, too, I imagine.

 

So, I'm guessing that, once all the politicos come back from their summer hols, autumn/winter 2020 should look very like the last couple of years: a rolling crisis? 

[bovril]

Poorer, but proud. 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-total-payments-to-eu-2020-1?utm_campaign=sf-insider-politics&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&r=US&IR=T&fbclid=IwAR0n5DEUD1MyaDUkfSS4VukowH5Tyt8CW6EiZ7mipGkhHrMbe1GRbfJyJh0

Edited 14 January 2020 by bovril

[Strokes]

50 minutes ago, bovril said:

Poor, but proud. 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-total-payments-to-eu-2020-1?utm_campaign=sf-insider-politics&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&r=US&IR=T&fbclid=IwAR0n5DEUD1MyaDUkfSS4VukowH5Tyt8CW6EiZ7mipGkhHrMbe1GRbfJyJh0

How would that £200b bigger economy make me or you richer?

[Carl the Llama]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

How would that £200b bigger economy make me or you richer?

Good point, let's have a socialist revolution. 

[Strokes]

2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

Good point, let's have a socialist revolution. 

If you say so, I’m happy with the brexit revolution for now 👍🏻

[bovril]

3 hours ago, Strokes said:

How would that £200b bigger economy make me or you richer?

Good point, and to be fair I would never vote purely with economic growth in mind. 

[z-layrex]

8 hours ago, bovril said:

Poorer, but proud. 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-total-payments-to-eu-2020-1?utm_campaign=sf-insider-politics&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&r=US&IR=T&fbclid=IwAR0n5DEUD1MyaDUkfSS4VukowH5Tyt8CW6EiZ7mipGkhHrMbe1GRbfJyJh0

A bigger economy does not always mean a better quality of life. The overcrowded south east and London is a testament to that. Something had to change.

[Strokes]

4 hours ago, bovril said:

Good point, and to be fair I would never vote purely with economic growth in mind. 

I’m probably not smart enough to understand all the ins and outs of basic economics but I really don’t understand the obsession over economic size, nor the desperation we have for growth, when the so called national wealth seems to equate to the square root of **** all to the average Joe.

Do the biggest economies in the world contain the richest and happiest people? Not particularly.

Its a bit like a business that makes a loss focusing on turnover instead of profit.

[LiberalFox]

£200Billion works out at around £3000 per person. 

 

 

[Guest MattP]

Anyone going to bung a bob for a Big Ben bong?

Edited 16 January 2020 by MattP

[Strokes]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Anyone going to bung a buck for a Big Ben bong?

I’ve just lost £3000 I didn’t know I had, now is not a good time Matthew.

[Carl the Llama]

Genuinely can't get my head around a bunch of tories laughing at the most basic of capitalist principles that a larger economy allows for a healthier state.  Don't get me wrong, I agree that it's a broken system but whatever happened to leaving the EU to save money for the NHS?  That extra £200bn would have paid for a decent amount of medical professionals.

[Guest MattP]

On 13/01/2020 at 08:11, lgfualol said:

It's all gone very quiet considering UK leave in 2 weeks. Is this cus the leavers and ring wing media got what they want? No need to report on it anymore?

Speaking of things going quiet....

 

I've not seen a picture of a kid on the floor of an A&E since the election? No need to report on that anymore I suppose either.