Also in the news

[Sharpe's Fox]

On 31/03/2021 at 17:49, Alf Bentley said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-56581131 

 

"Brazil's Jair Bolsonaro is facing the biggest crisis of his presidency after the heads of the army, navy and air force all quit and the country recorded its highest daily Covid-19 death toll.

The unprecedented resignation of the defence chiefs is being seen as a protest at attempts by Mr Bolsonaro to exert undue control over the military. Mr Bolsonaro's popularity has plummeted over his response to Covid-19.

Nearly 314,000 people have died, with a new daily record of 3,780 on Tuesday".

Thankfully the clearing of Lula in the courts will put him in front to dislodge Bolsonaro from power next year. Of course the liberals and conservatives who brought trumped up charges to bar him from any office in the first place have a lot to answer for, but maybe they will learn this time.

[Carl the Llama]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

I guess it's like the flag stuff - the vast majority don't really give a shit but when they feel culture or traditions are under attack they'll instinctively defend it. 

This is actually what I'm getting out so thanks for saving me the time.  There's no logic to the complaints, it's just people with no vested interest in the courses in question acting on instinct because of an article worded to fuel their outrage and gain clicks. 

 

It's very possible that somebody who is of a mind to study music at University would appreciate the course offering a broader education.

[Otis]

15 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

And they are?

I don't know their individual names.

 

[Sharpe's Fox]

1 hour ago, I am Rod Hull said:

Our Universities are full of arseholes preaching Marxism to our kids, you have to be blind not to see it. 

You're right. When I was at uni I could barely get to the bar in a student union without someone lecturing me on surplus value theory or the dialectical method.

Edited 1 April 2021 by Sharpe's Fox

[Carl the Llama]

3 minutes ago, Otis said:

I don't know their individual names.

 

No because it's a nothing term used to trick you into rubbishing any socially positive action without applying critical thought.

[bovril]

3 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

That is mind blowingly unspecific. Help me out here!

The idea that institutions in the Western world are inherently racist and constructed in a way that furthers the interests of white people, and therefore need to be dismantled.

 

I'm not sure I really believe in a kind of 'Frankfurt School' conspiracy that it is being deliberately foisted on the Western world in order to bring about its demise. I think it's more that there's a very profitable critical race theory industry that's sprung up and it's met with little resistance by people who are either too scared to call it out, or who display those views as a status symbol that they think differentiates them from the racist, backward masses.  

[Otis]

Just now, Carl the Llama said:

No because it's a nothing term used to trick you into rubbishing any socially positive action without applying critical thought.

In your opinion, many others would say it's a negative action.

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, bovril said:

The idea that institutions in the Western world are inherently racist and constructed in a way that furthers the interests of white people, and therefore need to be dismantled.

 

I'm not sure I really believe in a kind of 'Frankfurt School' conspiracy that it is being deliberately foisted on the Western world in order to bring about its demise. I think it's more that there's a very profitable critical race theory industry that's sprung up and it's met with little resistance by people who are either too scared to call it out, or who display those views as a status symbol that they think differentiates them from the racist, backward masses.  

Thanks, appreciated the backdrop.

[bovril]

6 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

This is actually what I'm getting out so thanks for saving me the time.  There's no logic to the complaints, it's just people with no vested interest in the courses in question acting on instinct because of an article worded to fuel their outrage and gain clicks. 

 

It's very possible that somebody who is of a mind to study music at University would appreciate the course offering a broader education.

I admit to not having read the specific documents from Oxford that the Telegraph mention, or indeed read the Telegraph piece, but I will endeavour to do so and decide whether Classic FM have deliberately worded the article to make it sound like Oxford's music department is planning to 'decolonise its curriculum' in order to generate clicks. 

[Carl the Llama]

5 minutes ago, bovril said:

I admit to not having read the specific documents from Oxford that the Telegraph mention, or indeed read the Telegraph piece, but I will endeavour to do so and decide whether Classic FM have deliberately worded the article to make it sound like Oxford's music department is planning to 'decolonise its curriculum' in order to generate clicks. 

Quote

While retaining (and in no way diminishing) our traditional excellence in the critical analysis, history and performance of the broad range of western art music, we are exploring ways to enhance our students’ opportunities to study a wider range of non-western and popular music from across the world than is currently on offer, as well as music composition, the psychology and sociology of music, music education, conducting, and much more.”

That's the quote given to CFM by the University.  That the article has given a very different impression to you proves my point.

Edited 1 April 2021 by Carl the Llama
terrible quoting skills

[Bellend Sebastian]

Is it just me that gets told that you can't say anything these days without someone taking offence about 20 times as frequently as I'm told I shouldn't have said something and that I've offended someone?

 

I mean, thank goodness. Without these constant warnings I'm certain I'd have put my foot in it by now

 

 

 

 

[bovril]

7 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said:

That's the quote given to CFM by the University.  That the article has given a very different impression to you proves my point.

The article gives a different impression because it focuses on the documents in the Telegraph article, not the very brief quote from OU's spokesman which you posted. 

 

You can say the 'woke brigade' is a nothing term and by and large it is, but just because people don't necessarily have the vocabulary to adequately explain what they feel or sometimes overact, it doesn't mean that their concerns should be rubbished or that they are being 'tricked' in some way. Changes informed by critical race theories are taking place in some universities in the UK and I think that's a negative development. My opinion is partially based on my own experience and what I've seen happening in the US, which is not a road I want this country to go down. At the same time I realise that when people talk about 'wokeness' they are lumping in a lot of unrelated stuff which annoys me because I think it actually takes away from the very worthwhile debate about whether we want critical race theories taking off in the UK. 

[String fellow]

1 hour ago, I am Rod Hull said:

Our Universities are full of arseholes preaching Marxism to our kids, you have to be blind not to see it. 

When I was at University, Marxism was preached under the guise of Sociology - leftist propaganda masquerading as science. To get a good grade, all you needed to do was say bad stuff about the capitalist system. The place itself was awash with societies like CommSoc and posters of Chairman Mao and Che Guevara. The elected Rector was always some hothead who was completely detached from reality. Dunno what it's like nowadays though - probably unbearably pc.

[Bellend Sebastian]

1 minute ago, String fellow said:

When I was at University, Marxism was preached under the guise of Sociology - leftist propaganda masquerading as science. To get a good grade, all you needed to do was say bad stuff about the capitalist system. The place itself was awash with societies like CommSoc and posters of Chairman Mao and Che Guevara. The elected Rector was always some hothead who was completely detached from reality. Dunno what it's like nowadays though - probably unbearably pc.

Do you feel your Sociology degree has benefited you?

[Alf Bentley]

10 minutes ago, String fellow said:

When I was at University, Marxism was preached under the guise of Sociology - leftist propaganda masquerading as science. To get a good grade, all you needed to do was say bad stuff about the capitalist system. The place itself was awash with societies like CommSoc and posters of Chairman Mao and Che Guevara. The elected Rector was always some hothead who was completely detached from reality. Dunno what it's like nowadays though - probably unbearably pc.

 

When and where was this, out of curiosity?

 

Not in England, I presume, as we don't have elected rectors here, do we? Amazed to hear of posters of Mao, too, unless it was 1960s or maybe early 70s?

[String fellow]

Without giving too much away, I was a student of the early and middle 70s, firstly at an English Uni where Sociology was a small part of the degree course, then later I was up in Scotland.  

[leicsmac]

3 hours ago, bovril said:

The article gives a different impression because it focuses on the documents in the Telegraph article, not the very brief quote from OU's spokesman which you posted. 

 

You can say the 'woke brigade' is a nothing term and by and large it is, but just because people don't necessarily have the vocabulary to adequately explain what they feel or sometimes overact, it doesn't mean that their concerns should be rubbished or that they are being 'tricked' in some way. Changes informed by critical race theories are taking place in some universities in the UK and I think that's a negative development. My opinion is partially based on my own experience and what I've seen happening in the US, which is not a road I want this country to go down. At the same time I realise that when people talk about 'wokeness' they are lumping in a lot of unrelated stuff which annoys me because I think it actually takes away from the very worthwhile debate about whether we want critical race theories taking off in the UK. 

Yep. And that's where it gets all a bit runny.

 

3 hours ago, String fellow said:

When I was at University, Marxism was preached under the guise of Sociology - leftist propaganda masquerading as science. To get a good grade, all you needed to do was say bad stuff about the capitalist system. The place itself was awash with societies like CommSoc and posters of Chairman Mao and Che Guevara. The elected Rector was always some hothead who was completely detached from reality. Dunno what it's like nowadays though - probably unbearably pc.

It's interesting - didn't think it was leftists that had a problem with the theory of evolution or the reality of climate change.

 

Anti-vaxxer sentiment is across the board though, tbf.

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-56612257

 

Something a bit lighter. Gotta love Aussie wildlife!

[String fellow]

7 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Yep. And that's where it gets all a bit runny.

 

It's interesting - didn't think it was leftists that had a problem with the theory of evolution or the reality of climate change.

 

Anti-vaxxer sentiment is across the board though, tbf.

Your link between leftists and science is completely unrelated to what I said about Sociology.    

[Wymsey]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-56608232

[leicsmac]

44 minutes ago, String fellow said:

Your link between leftists and science is completely unrelated to what I said about Sociology.    

Perhaps I should have been clearer - my point was that given the tendency of some on the right to ignore settled science when it suits them, perhaps there shouldn't be too much judgment from that quarter about what defines science in the first place.

[String fellow]

26 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Perhaps I should have been clearer - my point was that given the tendency of some on the right to ignore settled science when it suits them, perhaps there shouldn't be too much judgment from that quarter about what defines science in the first place.

Well, the left isn't immune from contradictory attitudes on certain things. Marx described religion as the opium of the people, and yet socialism is happy to embrace people of certain faiths when it suits their cause. As regards science, that mainly involves advancement of understanding through observation of results of repeatable experiments, not from politically motivated representations of one-off events in social history dressed up as facts.

[Alf Bentley]

35 minutes ago, String fellow said:

Well, the left isn't immune from contradictory attitudes on certain things. Marx described religion as the opium of the people, and yet socialism is happy to embrace people of certain faiths when it suits their cause. 

 

Another famous quote is that the Labour Party owes more to Methodism than to Marxism. Probably true (and many continental parties of the Left has more Marxist influence), though it arguably owed even more to trade unionism.

Tony Benn was a non-demoninational Christian, I think.

 

I'm not sure that Methodism was what you had in mind when you referred to "certain faiths". In the past, I've met a lot of Christians in the Labour Party, as well as a lot of fellow Atheists, and a fair few Quakers, Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Agnostics.....

 

Both Left and Right include a plurality of attitudes. Sometimes those are contradictory, sometimes not. Often they're subsumed within a coalition that has broader common aims, such as the Labour or Conservative parties.

All parties embrace anyone whose views are vaguely compatible when it suits their cause, so as to gain members, activists, votes etc. Anyway.....probably one for the Politics Thread, not really News.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, String fellow said:

Well, the left isn't immune from contradictory attitudes on certain things. Marx described religion as the opium of the people, and yet socialism is happy to embrace people of certain faiths when it suits their cause. As regards science, that mainly involves advancement of understanding through observation of results of repeatable experiments, not from politically motivated representations of one-off events in social history dressed up as facts.

Certainly not.

 

However, social sciences are still sciences and quite frankly it annoys me that more than a few STEMheads look down they'd noses at them because they're somehow not "hard" enough. Empiricism takes more than one form and knowing some of the why's and wherefore behind human behaviour is pretty damn important.

[String fellow]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Certainly not.

 

However, social sciences are still sciences and quite frankly it annoys me that more than a few STEMheads look down they'd noses at them because they're somehow not "hard" enough. Empiricism takes more than one form and knowing some of the why's and wherefore behind human behaviour is pretty damn important.

I'm assuming from its context that this strange word is being used pejoratively, which is itself slightly annoying. In truth, social science (psychology, sociology, anthropology etc.) is 'soft' science that can change over time, as attitudes change. Natural science (physics, chemistry, biology etc.) is 'hard' science that doesn't change over time, apart from being refined.  

Be that as it may, this thread is really about news not philosophy, so changing the subject, an independent report has confirmed something that I mentioned on FT a while ago, namely that smart motorways aren't as safe as ordinary motorways. I remember returning home on a smart section of the M1 on one occasion, running on empty and praying that the car wouldn't conk out. It was quite an uncomfortable position to be in.