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Countryfox

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By Countryfox, in General Chat

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bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted
Just now, Voll Blau said:

There are definitely plenty in Westminster who could have benefitted from such lessons for starters. For me, the Northern Ireland issue was probably the most logic-defying aspect of Brexit. The problem is enough people in Great Britain just don't really care what happens there or know why it happens. I don't mean to be flippant about it but it's just an extension of the Old Firm derby in many people's minds.

I think it also comes from the sense of Ireland being an almost-part of the UK and not really part of the EU. And a lack of understanding about what 'open borders' meant beyond mere immigration concerns. 

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bovril

bovril

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Posted (edited)
Just now, yorkie1999 said:

But, once Brexit was voted for, whether or not it's a bad thing, there were 2 choices, a land border, which basically breaks the gf agreement and would see a return to the troubles, or a sea border which is workable, but still ends up with riots. No-one can ever win.

Simply not true. There are versions of Brexit that don't require borders, they're just not the versions of Brexit that English Conservative voters wanted. 

Edited by bovril
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Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

Posted
Posted
32 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

You can give all the reasons in the world for the current violence but what is petrol bombing a bus going to solve.

 

I'm not justifying the current violence (or past violence) in the slightest.

 

Anyone petrol bombing a bus should be dealt with under the law - and not allowed to "get on with it" as "they don't like each other", as you suggest.

 

But it's the responsibility of the democratically elected authorities to deal with issues that might fuel sectarian violence so as to avoid it.

That responsibility mainly lies with govts and politicians in London and Belfast as N. Ireland is part of the UK but with some devolved powers (and some limited joint responsibility for Dublin in some fields).

 

If the majority in N. Ireland ever vote to leave the UK and join the Republic of Ireland, that situation would change. But that doesn't apply now. It might happen in 10-20 years but would probably be a bad idea any time soon, at least without much better relations between the different communities in N. Ireland.

 

It's mainly a British responsibility to defuse this problem, but it's also massively in the interests of everyone on this island as well as in Ireland - not least remembering the scale of the violence on BOTH islands between the 1960s & 1990s. This current violence seemed to start with Loyalist grievances against the authorities and police, but there's an obvious risk of it spilling over into much worse sectarian violence between different communities - and nationalist youths were also getting involved last night.

 

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Leicester_Loyal

Leicester_Loyal

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Maybe not with the same sectarian undertones (though there were racial aspects to past riots in England).

 

But there were much worse riots in London in 2011 and in various English cities in the 1980s. As with these riots, a lot of the violence was directed at the police - and it would have been wrong to just "let them get on with it".

I remember the Burnley race riots in 2001. Couldn't find a video that wasn't age restricted or didn't have awful music being played.

 

 

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Sampson

Sampson

Posted
Posted
17 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Breaks my heart seeing trouble flare up in NI again. Wonderful people (in the main) and a lovely part of the world. Sad times. 

Absolutely. 

 

One of the most picturesque and hospitable areas of the UK.

 

Been there a couple of times on holiday. Must admit I was a little nervous going as an Englishman the first time as I grew up with decades of violence on the news everyday, but you'll struggle to find a nicer or more hospitable group of people.

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CosbehFox

CosbehFox

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

Let them get on with it, they obviously don't like each other.

 

2 hours ago, yorkie1999 said:

I can't answer that because it's not happening in those places and i very much doubt it would. The Irish problem is never going to end until they sort it out themselves, surely history has shown that.

But some of those cities had bombings as a result of it all FFS

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CosbehFox

CosbehFox

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

The role of the UK in the Irish Famine of the late 1840's would be a good place to start.

 

1 hour ago, Voll Blau said:

We really don't learn anywhere near enough at school in England about the history of Ireland.

That was on the A Level syllabus when I did mine. 

 

 

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oxford blue

oxford blue

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Absolutely. 

 

One of the most picturesque and hospitable areas of the UK.

 

Been there a couple of times on holiday. Must admit I was a little nervous going as an Englishman the first time as I grew up with decades of violence on the news everyday, but you'll struggle to find a nicer or more hospitable group of people.

I visited to Ireland (north & south) a few years ago, including Belfast. I want to the Falls and Shankhill roads, as wels as the Peace Garden and Peace Wall - where there was violence yesterday. I find it so sad - after all these years of peace - there could be violence between Protestants & Catholics, which now seems a possibility. I do hope common sense (in my mind) prevails. I am sure the vast majority of Irish people - north & south -  want to live peacefully - but there does seem to be a prospect of escalation. I hope it does not happen; there will be no benefit to anyone.

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Blue ROI

Blue ROI

Posted
Posted

The scenes from Northern Ireland almost come across like the fall of the Communist Soviet Union in 1991.

 

Unionism/Loyalism is in massive decline by the looks of it. Terrible living standards and education levels are up there with the worst in Europe. Also having to deal with an aging population. Their leadership is looking completely outdated in its ideals. 

 

They are out on a limb now.  The world at large will associate this weeks violence solely with Loyalists. If it kicks off again like in the past they carry the can for it. 

 

The Nationalists have fared far better since the Good Friday Agreement. Sinn Fein have made huge progress across the whole of Ireland. 

 

Its really a no win situation for the Unionist die hards now.

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fuchsntf

fuchsntf

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I'm not justifying the current violence (or past violence) in the slightest.

 

Anyone petrol bombing a bus should be dealt with under the law - and not allowed to "get on with it" as "they don't like each other", as you suggest.

 

But it's the responsibility of the democratically elected authorities to deal with issues that might fuel sectarian violence so as to avoid it.

That responsibility mainly lies with govts and politicians in London and Belfast as N. Ireland is part of the UK but with some devolved powers (and some limited joint responsibility for Dublin in some fields).

 

If the majority in N. Ireland ever vote to leave the UK and join the Republic of Ireland, that situation would change. But that doesn't apply now. It might happen in 10-20 years but would probably be a bad idea any time soon, at least without much better relations between the different communities in N. Ireland.

 

It's mainly a British responsibility to defuse this problem, but it's also massively in the interests of everyone on this island as well as in Ireland - not least remembering the scale of the violence on BOTH islands between the 1960s & 1990s. This current violence seemed to start with Loyalist grievances against the authorities and police, but there's an obvious risk of it spilling over into much worse sectarian violence between different communities - and nationalist youths were also getting involved last night.

 

If the majority in N. Ireland ever vote to leave the UK and join the Republic of Ireland, that situation would change. But that doesn't apply now. It might happen in 10-20 years but would probably be a bad idea any time soon, at least without much better relations between the different communities in N. Ireland.

 

This aint going to happen in 120years...There arent any trees, that can bend that far...!!

 

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Alf Bentley

Alf Bentley

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, fuchsntf said:

If the majority in N. Ireland ever vote to leave the UK and join the Republic of Ireland, that situation would change. But that doesn't apply now. It might happen in 10-20 years but would probably be a bad idea any time soon, at least without much better relations between the different communities in N. Ireland.

 

This aint going to happen in 120years...There arent any trees, that can bend that far...!!

 

 

I don't know enough about N. Ireland to comment with confidence, but some polls have suggested that the result of a border poll might already be close - and differential birth rates show that there will be a Catholic majority in N. Ireland soon, if it doesn't already exist (2021 Census may confirm this).

 

Of course, that doesn't mean that people would vote to join the RoI as it's not entirely a sectarian issue, as I understand it. I also presume that growing numbers of younger people are less attached to any religion.

Some value access to the British NHS or might fear the risk of violent conflict from such a change. Economic factors could also play a part: impact of post-Brexit border in Irish Sea, trade with RoI, RoI/EU v. UK economy, public & private investment in N.I....

 

For me, even if the Nationalist/Republican side feel confident of winning a border poll soon, it seems much too big a risk to rush into that, given the potential for a major conflagration if NI voted to join the RoI.

The priority must surely be to bring the communities together and build trust - no easy task and one likely to take many years and enormous effort on all sides. 

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fuchsntf

fuchsntf

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I don't know enough about N. Ireland to comment with confidence, but some polls have suggested that the result of a border poll might already be close - and differential birth rates show that there will be a Catholic majority in N. Ireland soon, if it doesn't already exist (2021 Census may confirm this).

 

Of course, that doesn't mean that people would vote to join the RoI as it's not entirely a sectarian issue, as I understand it. I also presume that growing numbers of younger people are less attached to any religion.

Some value access to the British NHS or might fear the risk of violent conflict from such a change. Economic factors could also play a part: impact of post-Brexit border in Irish Sea, trade with RoI, RoI/EU v. UK economy, public & private investment in N.I....

 

For me, even if the Nationalist/Republican side feel confident of winning a border poll soon, it seems much too big a risk to rush into that, given the potential for a major conflagration if NI voted to join the RoI.

The priority must surely be to bring the communities together and build trust - no easy task and one likely to take many years and enormous effort on all sides. 

The priority must surely be to bring the communities together and build trust - no easy task and one likely to take many years and enormous effort on all sides. 

 

And unfortunately this will be longhaul....and will need various neutral >Away from UK < go-betweens, that itself will take time to build agreed trust.

Its not any Political Agreement that will sort the various problems out, this will have to come from off/within The streets & homes...

 

i would Love to see this Emerald isle become one,  even it there remains a line between them....

In a weird way, maybe something like Brexit could bring/ start that needed catalyst...

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String fellow

String fellow

Posted
Posted

It sounds like your neck of the woods will become your neck of the former woods. I think I suggested a while ago that any new rail link should run next to the M40, not cut through unspoiled countryside, if we really need one. 

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Sharpe's Fox

Sharpe's Fox

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Very much agree with posters talking about education about colonialism in Ireland. Of course I wouldn't hold your breath since, after all, we live in a country that has convinced itself the British Empire was a good thing. Ignorance is built into our culture.

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