FoxesDeb Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 4 minutes ago, Dames said: I’ll admit that in current circumstances the argument you guys are making is probably the best course of action.. because its the only course of action left. The point I made about the Government losing control of the virus in prisons is valid. They could have done so much more to make those environments covid secure and they should have, theoretically prisons should have been one of the safest places in the country from Covid. For a Government and Home sec that have been carping on about taking back control, being tougher on criminals, crime and immigration this latest headline is not a good look politically which was my original point before it got derailed into this discussion. My other point is that it should never have come to a point where convicted criminals are getting vaccinated ahead of normal people regardless of their age because they should be in the most covid secure environments in the country. I don't think that was your original point, I thought your original point was that Priti Patel was rubbish because instead of being tough on crime she was agreeing to vaccinate prisoners, and you didn't think this was 'a good look'. On your second point, vaccinating people to keep them out of the hospitals has nothing to do with being tough on crime. It is purely to restrict the constraints being made on the NHS at this time. And again, I don't see why anyone should be bothered about what is or isn't 'a good look'. If it's the right thing to do it remains the right thing to do whether or not you or I like what it looks like. I can't agree with last your point regarding convicted criminals getting vaccinated before 'normal people' either. They are still people who are susceptible to Covid, regardless of their crimes, and if they are the ones most likely to need hospital treatment ahead of others then I agree that they should be vaccinated. See my point above regarding the NHS. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 3 minutes ago, Dames said: You’re cherry picking part of my argument and ignoring everything else i’m saying. I’ve yet to have one person make a valid point against the fact that the pandemic management in prisons has been woefully below standards when in theory it should have been one of the easiest parts of the pandemic to manage. And again my original point is that its ironic that Patel is someone who advocated for the death penalty for the worst of criminals and those same criminals are getting priority vaccinations on her watch. She would be a hypocrite to continue to stand on that platform. It’s not as easy as you say it is to manage a pandemic in prison, staff going in and out are just as likely to bring in the virus as anyone else. Consistent testing is already in place but the 30 minute tests are only 70% or so effective and it’s not beyond logic that this can be breached. Honestly, I don’t think even you have faith in your arguments, so I’m not sure you’ll convince the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dames Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 1 minute ago, FoxesDeb said: I don't think that was your original point, I thought your original point was that Priti Patel was rubbish because instead of being tough on crime she was agreeing to vaccinate prisoners, and you didn't think this was 'a good look'. On your second point, vaccinating people to keep them out of the hospitals has nothing to do with being tough on crime. It is purely to restrict the constraints being made on the NHS at this time. And again, I don't see why anyone should be bothered about what is or isn't 'a good look'. If it's the right thing to do it remains the right thing to do whether or not you or I like what it looks like. I can't agree with last your point regarding convicted criminals getting vaccinated before 'normal people' either. They are still people who are susceptible to Covid, regardless of their crimes, and if they are the ones most likely to need hospital treatment ahead of others then I agree that they should be vaccinated. See my point above regarding the NHS. That 3rd paragraph which I say is my original point is virtually the same as my original point so why are people saying it isn’t? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxesDeb Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 6 minutes ago, Dames said: You’re cherry picking part of my argument and ignoring everything else i’m saying. I’ve yet to have one person make a valid point against the fact that the pandemic management in prisons has been woefully below standards when in theory it should have been one of the easiest parts of the pandemic to manage. And again my original point is that its ironic that Patel is someone who advocated for the death penalty for the worst of criminals and those same criminals are getting priority vaccinations on her watch. She would be a hypocrite to continue to stand on that platform. They aren't getting priority though, they are getting the vaccinations in the same order as the rest of us. What has Priti Patel's stance on the death penalty got to do with any of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 Jesus Christ this is getting painful. The huge success of the UK Vaccination program will eventually outweigh the earlier massive screwups by the conservatives, who will ditch Boris and win the next GE comfortably with Rishi Sunak at the helm. Hurrah to the right for giving us our first two Female PMs and our first BAME PM! Glory to the right. DISCUSS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 4 minutes ago, Dames said: None of my points of posts contradict the original point and many of them are responses to the points and hypothetical situations that you brought up, thats what happens in a discussion right? And if you reread my post I reiterate that my original point is that they bang on about being tough on crime and this latest headline/act is not reflective of that stance. Talking of cherry picking and missing bits of people’s arguments, why do you think that by not vaccinating prisoners it’s an act of being tough on crime or not? How does a weakness in the vaccination programme help future crime statistics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 Just now, Jon the Hat said: Jesus Christ this is getting painful. The huge success of the UK Vaccination program will eventually outweigh the earlier massive screwups by the conservatives, who will ditch Boris and win the next GE comfortably with Rishi Sunak at the helm. Hurrah to the right for giving us our first two Female PMs and our first BAME PM! Glory to the right. DISCUSS! Sunak's not had a great pandemic has he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 2 minutes ago, Strokes said: Talking of cherry picking and missing bits of people’s arguments, why do you think that by not vaccinating prisoners it’s an act of being tough on crime or not? How does a weakness in the vaccination programme help future crime statistics? It doesn't, it just results in lawsuits against the government and big cash payouts to criminals. Winner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 Just now, bovril said: Sunak's not had a great pandemic has he? The best employment support package in the world and had the big retailers give back their handouts? He is well on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 Just now, Jon the Hat said: It doesn't, it just results in lawsuits against the government and big cash payouts to criminals. Winner. Not if they are dead. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 Just now, Facecloth said: Not if they are dead. Even bigger payouts to their families! Might start a class action! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 Just now, Jon the Hat said: Even bigger payouts to their families! Might start a class action! It was a joke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 1 minute ago, Facecloth said: It was a joke I know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 Just now, Jon the Hat said: I know! I didn't see your reaction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dames Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 1 minute ago, Strokes said: Talking of cherry picking and missing bits of people’s arguments, why do you think that by not vaccinating prisoners it’s an act of being tough on crime or not? How does a weakness in the vaccination programme help future crime statistics? I said earlier that the current course of action is the best course of action. None of that is relevant to my original point and my further points were that more could have been done to secure prisons from covid, all in response to the challenges made by you and others. Thats the whole point of a discussion/debate. Whether they are vaccinated or not is going to have no impact on crime statistics, thats never been my point. My point and further point has always been that I find the Home Sec hypocritical, shes gone from Death to Criminals to Vaccinate Criminals. If it was Diane Abbott and Corbyn her tune would be to ‘let them rot’. Thats always been my point. Everything after that has been a response to the challenges and hypothetical situations that have been posed, i keep repeating myself on this. More could probably have been done, just like in other areas of the pandemic but at the moment given the circumstances this is the right course of action. But again this headline contradicts every thing shes ever said before and if the shoe were on the other foot she’d be screaming bloody murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 1 minute ago, Dames said: I said earlier that the current course of action is the best course of action. None of that is relevant to my original point and my further points were that more could have been done to secure prisons from covid, all in response to the challenges made by you and others. Thats the whole point of a discussion/debate. Whether they are vaccinated or not is going to have no impact on crime statistics, thats never been my point. My point and further point has always been that I find the Home Sec hypocritical, shes gone from Death to Criminals to Vaccinate Criminals. If it was Diane Abbott and Corbyn her tune would be to ‘let them rot’. Thats always been my point. Everything after that has been a response to the challenges and hypothetical situations that have been posed, i keep repeating myself on this. More could probably have been done, just like in other areas of the pandemic but at the moment given the circumstances this is the right course of action. But again this headline contradicts every thing shes ever said before and if the shoe were on the other foot she’d be screaming bloody murder. Yeah I’m still not getting it. Can I ask your opinion, do you think they should be vaccinated or not? Or was your problem with the Home Secretary all along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dames Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 12 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said: They aren't getting priority though, they are getting the vaccinations in the same order as the rest of us. What has Priti Patel's stance on the death penalty got to do with any of this? Because her stance was death to the most heinous of criminals and now those said criminals are getting vaccinated for protection from a deadly virus on her watch, its ironic and contradictory and thats what i’ve pointed out. They are getting priority in a sense that that are having a vaccine over someone that hasn’t committed a crime and that point I admit is me taking the moral high ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dames Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 1 minute ago, Strokes said: Yeah I’m still not getting it. Can I ask your opinion, do you think they should be vaccinated or not? Or was your problem with the Home Secretary all along? I’ve said several times now that given the circumstances vaccinating them is the best course of action. Most of what i’ve said today is responding to people raising completely different points and situations but as i keep saying thats the nature of political discourse like this. My problem and point has always been with a Home Sec and Government that has spent the best part of 5 years spouting a certain kind of rhetoric only to contradict that rhetoric at almost every opportunity. Even in circumstances where they would find the least resistance to enforce some of their proposals they’ve still not done it. Yet come the next campaign they’ll be spouting the same old stuff riling up the masses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 1 minute ago, Dames said: I’ve said several times now that given the circumstances vaccinating them is the best course of action. Most of what i’ve said today is responding to people raising completely different points and situations but as i keep saying thats the nature of political discourse like this. My problem and point has always been with a Home Sec and Government that has spent the best part of 5 years spouting a certain kind of rhetoric only to contradict that rhetoric at almost every opportunity. Even in circumstances where they would find the least resistance to enforce some of their proposals they’ve still not done it. Yet come the next campaign they’ll be spouting the same old stuff riling up the masses. So your pro vaccinating prisoners but annoyed that it’s been done because you think it’s hypocritical? Im guessing you would have been upset by whatever they did then.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxesDeb Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 7 minutes ago, Dames said: Because her stance was death to the most heinous of criminals and now those said criminals are getting vaccinated for protection from a deadly virus on her watch, its ironic and contradictory and thats what i’ve pointed out. They are getting priority in a sense that that are having a vaccine over someone that hasn’t committed a crime and that point I admit is me taking the moral high ground. They aren't just being vaccinated for their own protection though, are they, it's to avoid unnecessary extra resources taken up within the NHS. I'm really not sure how many times this needs to be iterated, or how it can be construed as ironic and contradictory? I also still don't understand what this has to do with Priti Patel's stance on the death penalty either? I'd be grateful if you could clarify it because I feel like I must be missing something. With regards to your second point, they aren't taking priority, they are getting it in line with our vaccination protocol according to age and/or vulnerability. Again, to help the NHS. Lord I sound like a broken record. Is it wine o'clock yet? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ealingfox Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said: Quite possible. It is unpleasant, but the fact is that prisoners have rights. I don't disagree, it's ultimately more logical just to do it. All cases of prisoners dying whilst incarcerated go to coroner's court so if one died of Covid having been denied a vaccine there'd be a clear case for litigation. 21 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: The best employment support package in the world and had the big retailers give back their handouts? He is well on top. By who's judgement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ealingfox Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 1 hour ago, Strokes said: Well yeah we all make tits of ourselves from time to time on here. Speaking of this, has the Premier league table levelled out yet or have we got a few more weeks to go? I mean it's still quite possible we could finish lower than 4th tbh yeah, but I'll be delighted if we don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 8 February 2021 Share Posted 8 February 2021 6 minutes ago, ealingfox said: I don't disagree, it's ultimately more logical just to do it. All cases of prisoners dying whilst incarcerated go to coroner's court so if one died of Covid having been denied a vaccine there'd be a clear case for litigation. By who's judgement? Everyone who isn’t in the self employed three million I guess. Which country has done more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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