Coronavirus Thread

[StanSP]

6 hours ago, Dunge said:

Out of all of the conspiracy theory stuff that’s been around since the start of the pandemic - the “virus isn’t real”, the “virus is no worse than flu really”, the “this is softening us up for authoritarianism”, the “one world, look it up sheeple” stuff - the only one I’ve ever felt might have some legs was the lab leak theory. It’s one I’ve been willing to listen to because it’s the only one that has any logical sense to it on a basic level.

 

But it’s also the one that, actually, doesn’t matter. I mean, obviously it would matter if it was part of some one world plot look it up sheeple, but that’s clearly nonsense. No way does anyone come up with anything that convoluted and unpredictable, quite aside from it being at odds with everything we know and are concerned about regarding the most powerful world governments. So then I ask: Could this have been accidentally released from a lab? Is it human error?

 

And here’s the thing: If it was, then what exactly do you intend to do about it?

What should we do different? (Nothing)

How does it change the course of the virus? (It doesn’t)

Does it make Piers Corbyn any less of a lunatic? (No)

 

So, what? Aside from maybe wanting to sue China, why does it matter? Aside from for scientific accuracy and knowledge for the future? And if that’s the only reason, why the hell do people need an “opinion” on it? What does someone’s opinion matter? It doesn’t affect political decisions, at least not along the lines of how to respond to the current pandemic, although it might be helpful in informing potential future ones. It’s a matter for research, a matter for record and science. And Line-X’s arguments are by far the more compelling.

Good post. 

 

Sometimes people need a reason to blame someone. Like you say, it doesn't change the course of the last 18 months and won't change the course of what happens in the future in how the virus is dealt with. Maybe it's a closure thing. If people know the answer it makes them feel better, even though it changes very little about what we can or can't do. 

[leicsmac]

20 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

If the virus was ever proved to be man made (repeat IF), it may have ramifications on what types of research are safe and which should be restricted or banned to ensure this is not repeated. The more we know about the origin, the more can be done to prevent it happening again, whether lab or animal derived.

There's certainly a scientific reason to know the origin. But most people when they talk about it talk about political reasons, which as Dunge said, are pointless.

 

14 minutes ago, StanSP said:

Good post. 

 

Sometimes people need a reason to blame someone. Like you say, it doesn't change the course of the last 18 months and won't change the course of what happens in the future in how the virus is dealt with. Maybe it's a closure thing. If people know the answer it makes them feel better, even though it changes very little about what we can or can't do. 

I take a more cynical viewpoint: Some people simply need an "other" to blame and denigrate for the disruption to their lives, even if there is no party to directly blame.

[Spudulike]

7 hours ago, FoxesDeb said:

I'm starting to feel like there's more intelligence in one of our match threads. 

It is absolutely incredible. Some of this conspiracy, anti-vax misinformation is staggering. Almost 90% of the UK population has now had at least one vaccine so the one in ten deniers believe they know better. Darwinism. 

[ARM1968]

7 hours ago, Line-X said:

Alina Chan is one of a group of academics that posit the lab leak theory. The details in this statement have already been widely commented upon by the field. To explain. Many other pathogens within the coronavirus family have furin cleavage sites, including the common cold. These viruses containing the site are strewn across the coronavirus family tree as opposed to being the preserve of closely related viruses. All prior research indicates that the site evolved multiple times in search of evolutionary advantage. What is known as convergent evolution, the process by which organisms that aren’t closely related independently evolve similar traits as a result of adapting to similar environmental circumstances is incredibly common.

 

Again, this is nothing new. You are simply posting confirmation bias and appeal to authority. 

 

People are not dismissing the lab leak possibility, because it is precisely that - a possibility. However, the evidence is circumstantial whilst the consilience across multiple related/cognate fields from the scientific evidence that we have is that it is of zoonotic origin. 

 

A balanced and objective appraisal of all the available evidence - including the suggestions in support of the lab leak theory can be found here. I am providing it as a source because it is the most impartial representation and breakdown of all the evidence that we have as opposed to cherry picking and quote mining views that conform to any preconceptions. 

 

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00991-0

 

The entire scientific content is fully referenced and the sources are independently verifiable. The weight of evidence is solely based upon what we know and the science that informs that. Anyone on this thread is welcome to falsify any aspect of it. In fact, I encourage and invite you to do so. 

Would those academics risk their jobs and reputations if they didn’t believe what they were saying?

 

It is easy to rubbish alternative views and tow the line, thus preserving your reputation and income. 
 

ALL of those speaking out against the narrative are risking pretty much everything. Why would they do that for the sake of conspiracy?  They are NOT all idiots, some are very high profile indeed. This alone should give you pause for thought. I mean it won’t, but it should. 

[Spudulike]

9 hours ago, ARM1968 said:

Nope. Those are facts. 
 

Recent studies show that the vaccinated carry pretty much the same viral load in their respiratory system and just as easily spread the virus.  Now, if you consider that more vaccinated people are asymptomatic and continue their lives normally, then they are more likely to spread the virus. On top of that, the vaccinated with their compliance passports can enter places without a test, whereas unvaccinated have to show a negative test. So vaccinated people can go about their business quite legitimately spreading the virus ‘invisibly’. 
 

I am yet to really see how the vaccinated are in any danger from the unvaccinated. 

You still seem to be struggling with this. This article has been posted numerous times that might help... 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/

 

As for 'Compliance passports', I'll file that in the bin next to the other language of of the anti-vax nut jobs, 'experimental vaccine', 'so called vaccine'. Please just stop it, grow up. 

[whoareyaaa]

15 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

It is absolutely incredible. Some of this conspiracy, anti-vax misinformation is staggering. Almost 90% of the UK population has now had at least one vaccine so the one in ten deniers believe they know better. Darwinism. 

Maybe they feel fine and don't feel they need a vaccine to get them over a mild flu in most cases..

 

edit: btw I'm not against or for vaccines.. by all means have the vaccine it's there for a reason.

Edited 20 December 2021 by whoareyaaa

[WigstonWanderer]

41 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

There's certainly a scientific reason to know the origin. But most people when they talk about it talk about political reasons, which as Dunge said, are pointless.

 

That is as may be. I have no interest in the politics, being convinced that whether lab leak or not it was not a deliberate act. But to suggest that it doesn’t matter is incorrect in my opinion.

Edited 20 December 2021 by WigstonWanderer

[ARM1968]

Just now, Spudulike said:

You still seem to be struggling with this. This article has been posted numerous times that might help... 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/

 

As for 'Compliance passports', I'll file that in the bin next to the other language of of the anti-vax nut jobs, 'experimental vaccine', 'so called vaccine'. Please just stop it, grow up. 

Whatever makes you feel most comfortable mate, seriously. I mean you must be right, right?  You’re one of the 90%. 90% of people couldn’t possibly be wrong, ever. 🤣

 

And yet the AntiVax rhetoric. Most are against this specific drug which isn’t actually a vaccine and is both new and experimental. Just have a little think about your language and how you feel towards those of us not vaxxed - then take a step back and ponder those feelings. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34433191/

“Moreover, messenger RNA vaccine is a relatively brand-new vaccine, and experience with this type of vaccine is still scarce. It is hard to overcome this innovation deadlock.”

 

Does the above not clearly show that these drugs are NEW and experimental?  They are. Fact. 

[leicsmac]

22 minutes ago, ARM1968 said:

Would those academics risk their jobs and reputations if they didn’t believe what they were saying?

 

It is easy to rubbish alternative views and tow the line, thus preserving your reputation and income. 
 

ALL of those speaking out against the narrative are risking pretty much everything. Why would they do that for the sake of conspiracy?  They are NOT all idiots, some are very high profile indeed. This alone should give you pause for thought. I mean it won’t, but it should. 

Not when they know they have a willing and paying audience to listen to them. Sometimes scientific integrity doesn't mean much to a bob in one's back pocket.

 

That's why it's the scientific *consensus* that is important.

 

13 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

That is as may be. I have no interest in the politics, being convinced that whether lab leak or not it was not a deliberate act. But to suggest that it doesn’t matter is incorrect in my opinion.

I think we agree.

[grobyfox1990]

28 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

It is absolutely incredible. Some of this conspiracy, anti-vax misinformation is staggering. Almost 90% of the UK population has now had at least one vaccine so the one in ten deniers believe they know better. Darwinism. 

Huge assumption at the end there wow. I’ve probably come across 50-100 people who are so scared of needles they’ve put off having the jab. Hundreds more who’ve been ‘so busy’ so have delayed having the jab. 7 on Saturday alone. yes they should be Darwin’ed out for being weak or making stupid excuses, but they’re not anti vaxxers 

[ARM1968]

Time will tell where Darwinism takes us, and it will take us where it will without regard to anyones opinion. 

[Spudulike]

18 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Huge assumption at the end there wow. I’ve probably come across 50-100 people who are so scared of needles they’ve put off having the jab. Hundreds more who’ve been ‘so busy’ so have delayed having the jab. 7 on Saturday alone. yes they should be Darwin’ed out for being weak or making stupid excuses, but they’re not anti vaxxers 

You're right. My daughter is needle phobic (seriously phobic) and has been beside herself with worry since getting the invite for a booster. As in the case of the first two, she's having the booster today after deciding the trauma has to be endured as a socially responsible adult. I'm proud of her, bless her cottons. 

[fox_up_north]

I am so frustrated that we're less than a week away from Christmas, after which numerous senior MPs have said that further restrictions are coming. 

 

So, just announce what options there are. Funnily enough, my Christmas plans don't end at the stroke of midnight on the 25th. I have set aside a few things to do - extended family, who I haven't seen in 2 years, friends who I haven't seen. Meet ups and plans have been made for events that are barely a week away. 

 

If you're a manager in any organisation, you tell your team what's coming and what to prepare for. Stop leaking things and put out clear, rational guidance for what people can expect.

 

This is the ONE time of year where you can accurately predict what people will do and can plan for it. Stop avoiding the issue. 

[Babylon]

51 minutes ago, ARM1968 said:

Whatever makes you feel most comfortable mate, seriously. I mean you must be right, right?  You’re one of the 90%. 90% of people couldn’t possibly be wrong, ever. 🤣

 

And yet the AntiVax rhetoric. Most are against this specific drug which isn’t actually a vaccine and is both new and experimental. Just have a little think about your language and how you feel towards those of us not vaxxed - then take a step back and ponder those feelings. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34433191/

“Moreover, messenger RNA vaccine is a relatively brand-new vaccine, and experience with this type of vaccine is still scarce. It is hard to overcome this innovation deadlock.”

 

Does the above not clearly show that these drugs are NEW and experimental?  They are. Fact. 

Love how you say it’s not a vaccine and post an actual quote calling it a vaccine. “Relatively” doing a lot of legwork there considering it has a decade + of work and research on it. 
 

Oh and when something is stamped with experimental, it just means they don’t have approval. All drugs etc are experimental until approval is received. They were given approval. 

Edited 20 December 2021 by Babylon

[danny.]

9 hours ago, Line-X said:

? You asked for further clarification and I am giving it to you. I can put it back into simpler terms if you like, but as you correctly say, it isn't very helpful. 

 

Ok. from this paper: https://respiratory-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12931-020-01581-z

 

I quote directly: "SARS-CoV-2 shares 96% genome similarity with a bat Coronavirus". Which as you rightly say. is overly simplistic. However it does provide several references for the statement which has been widely referred to, - including by myself. Here is one of them.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7194821/

 

Which tells us the following:

 

"Comparative genomic analysis has been greatly assisted by the availability of a related virus from a Rhinolophus affinis (i.e., horseshoe) bat sampled in Yunnan province, China, in 2013 (Zhou et al., 2020). This virus, denoted RaTG13, is ∼96% similar to SARS-CoV-2 at the nucleotide sequence level."

 

For further clarification, DNA molecules are composed of four nucleotides which are linked together like a code. Together, all of the DNA codes or sentences within a cell contain the instructions for building the proteins and other molecules that the cell needs to carry out its daily work.

 

The original findings are here:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7095418/

 

and here:

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2951-z

 

The team is lead by Peng Zhou. This just one academic from a very large community of virologists intensively studying bat SARS-related coronaviruses over the last decade to provide new insights into the origin of SARS coronavirus.

 

There was an article somewhere about their work - scouring bat colonies/caves throughout south-east Asia. I'll try to find it tomorrow if you are interested. 

 

Right, you didn’t mean SARS and a bat then. You said the DNA was 96% shared between SARS-CoV-2 and a bat, not between SARS-CoV-2 and a bat coronavirus - which didn’t make much sense!

 

That’s literally all I was asking you to clarify. 
 

96% surprisingly isn’t much in terms of shared genome. We share 98% with pigs!

 

Edited 20 December 2021 by danny.

[grobyfox1990]

13 minutes ago, Spudulike said:

You're right. My daughter is needle phobic (seriously phobic) and has been beside herself with worry since getting the invite for a booster. As in the case of the first two, she's having the booster today after deciding the trauma has to be endured as a socially responsible adult. I'm proud of her, bless her cottons. 

Fantastic to hear, hope she shows that needle who’s boss!!!

[Nalis]

9 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

I am so frustrated that we're less than a week away from Christmas, after which numerous senior MPs have said that further restrictions are coming. 

 

So, just announce what options there are. Funnily enough, my Christmas plans don't end at the stroke of midnight on the 25th. I have set aside a few things to do - extended family, who I haven't seen in 2 years, friends who I haven't seen. Meet ups and plans have been made for events that are barely a week away. 

 

If you're a manager in any organisation, you tell your team what's coming and what to prepare for. Stop leaking things and put out clear, rational guidance for what people can expect.

 

This is the ONE time of year where you can accurately predict what people will do and can plan for it. Stop avoiding the issue. 

I'm in a similar boat. I have something that is coming up before Christmas too but plan on cancelling it if I can meet family I havent seen in 2 years between Christmas and New Year to reduce the risk of catching covid and having to isolate. But if there are tight restrictions from 26th or 27th anyway, then I can probably go to the thing this week. All involves being in different parts of the country too.

 

Know its nowhere near as extreme as other people's plans etc but still annoying that we dont know what is happening, especially if those plans have been crystallised by the government already.

Edited 20 December 2021 by Nalis

[Babylon]

10 hours ago, ARM1968 said:

Nope. Those are facts. 
 

Recent studies show that the vaccinated carry pretty much the same viral load in their respiratory system and just as easily spread the virus.  Now, if you consider that more vaccinated people are asymptomatic and continue their lives normally, then they are more likely to spread the virus. On top of that, the vaccinated with their compliance passports can enter places without a test, whereas unvaccinated have to show a negative test. So vaccinated people can go about their business quite legitimately spreading the virus ‘invisibly’. 
 

I am yet to really see how the vaccinated are in any danger from the unvaccinated. 

Have you read the studies? Because every other idiot on here has been pointed to the actual information and scuttled off with their tail between their legs. The study was specifically about people living together and it also clarified the the peak viral load was similar, the viral loads before and after we’re very different. Meaning vaccinated are less likely to spread the virus. 

[ARM1968]

14 minutes ago, Babylon said:

Love how you say it’s not a vaccine and post an actual quote calling it a vaccine. “Relatively” doing a lot of legwork there considering it has a decade + of work and research on it. 
 

Oh and when something is stamped with experimental, it just means they don’t have approval. All drugs etc are experimental until approval is received. They were given approval. 

People can call them what they will. They aren’t vaccines, but if you want to kid yourself I can’t stop you. 
 

These drugs are new and they are experimental, as you well know. They have never been used in humans before. And before you blather on anymore, just let me know, how long does it normally take to create, test and have a vaccine approved?

[Buce]

 

I looked out of the window this morning and noticed it's a full Moon.

 

Suddenly everything becomes clear.

[WigstonWanderer]

7 minutes ago, ARM1968 said:

People can call them what they will. They aren’t vaccines, but if you want to kid yourself I can’t stop you. 
 

These drugs are new and they are experimental, as you well know. They have never been used in humans before. And before you blather on anymore, just let me know, how long does it normally take to create, test and have a vaccine approved?

Can you explain why you think they aren’t vaccines?

 

Opinion is clearly divided.

 

 

Edited 20 December 2021 by WigstonWanderer

[SemperEadem]

23 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

I am so frustrated that we're less than a week away from Christmas, after which numerous senior MPs have said that further restrictions are coming. 

 

So, just announce what options there are. Funnily enough, my Christmas plans don't end at the stroke of midnight on the 25th. I have set aside a few things to do - extended family, who I haven't seen in 2 years, friends who I haven't seen. Meet ups and plans have been made for events that are barely a week away. 

 

If you're a manager in any organisation, you tell your team what's coming and what to prepare for. Stop leaking things and put out clear, rational guidance for what people can expect.

 

This is the ONE time of year where you can accurately predict what people will do and can plan for it. Stop avoiding the issue. 

Spot on

[fox_up_north]

2 minutes ago, ARM1968 said:

People can call them what they will. They aren’t vaccines, but if you want to kid yourself I can’t stop you. 
 

These drugs are new and they are experimental, as you well know. They have never been used in humans before. And before you blather on anymore, just let me know, how long does it normally take to create, test and have a vaccine approved?

I suppose that would all depend on whether the entire world, including mega corporations, have a vested interest in actually making things better for themselves.

 

See also: electric vehicles, renewable energy, cutting down plastic waste, fair taxes on the rich.

[grobyfox1990]

36 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

I am so frustrated that we're less than a week away from Christmas, after which numerous senior MPs have said that further restrictions are coming. 

 

So, just announce what options there are. Funnily enough, my Christmas plans don't end at the stroke of midnight on the 25th. I have set aside a few things to do - extended family, who I haven't seen in 2 years, friends who I haven't seen. Meet ups and plans have been made for events that are barely a week away. 

 

If you're a manager in any organisation, you tell your team what's coming and what to prepare for. Stop leaking things and put out clear, rational guidance for what people can expect.

 

This is the ONE time of year where you can accurately predict what people will do and can plan for it. Stop avoiding the issue. 

Agreed and well summed up. Unfortunately with every day that passes this is less to do with overall health and well-being of the population and more and more to do with politics 

[ARM1968]

13 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Can you explain why you think they aren’t vaccines?

 

Opinion is clearly divided.

 

 

The definition of what is or is not a vaccine was changed in the USA and also by the WHO, I believe, back in 2019, before the pandemic. 
 

pfizer and Moderna don’t refer to them internally as vaccines either and nor did they patent ‘vaccines’. 
 

“I discussed this troubling fact in a recent interview with molecular biologist Judy Mikovits, Ph.D. While the Moderna and Pfizer mRNA shots are labeled as “vaccines,” and news agencies and health policy leaders call them that, the actual patents for Pfizer’s and Moderna’s injections more truthfully describe them as “gene therapy,” not vaccines.”