Everton Post Match

[Nostromo]

19 hours ago, peach0000 said:

Not as bad as the other losses for me. Everton didn't create much but they didn't have to as they had the slice of luck with the first goal they needed. Ancelotti has learnt from Pep and Klopp the art of the tactical foul, something I would like to see us bring into our game. Lee Mason fell for the tactics and had one of the most low key shocking refereeing performances I've seen. Got the big decisions right but almost every little decision was wrong and that messed up any momentum we were trying to build.

Sorry Peach , but Ancelotti has not had to learn anything from Pep or Klopp ,there is nothing they can teach him ,Wish we had him !

[volpeazzurro]

1 hour ago, Nostromo said:

Sorry Peach , but Ancelotti has not had to learn anything from Pep or Klopp ,there is nothing they can teach him ,Wish we had him !

Absolutely, his record speaks for itself. He would have seen our team selections and seen the weaknesses in a matter of seconds like many people could. He's an excellent manager. 

[Pliskin]

12 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

Absolutely, his record speaks for itself. He would have seen our team selections and seen the weaknesses in a matter of seconds like many people could. He's an excellent manager. 

Plus he’s been around for centuries....... he was managing whilst pep was playing 😂 so lord only know how he has learned off them 😂 

[peach0000]

1 hour ago, Nostromo said:

Sorry Peach , but Ancelotti has not had to learn anything from Pep or Klopp ,there is nothing they can teach him ,Wish we had him !

The best managers are constantly evolving and learning. Pep and Klopp have been excellent over the past three years and someone like Ancelotti would certainly be looking at them and trying to learn from them like they will him. 

[volpeazzurro]

3 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

Plus he’s been around for centuries....... he was managing whilst pep was playing 😂 so lord only know how he has learned off them 😂 

Absolutely. 

[Vazman]

2 hours ago, deanolegend1989 said:

In my opinion, @ealingfox is correct. It’s easy for people to give the ‘perspective’ line to shut down people, but this season we have in general not been good enough.

We have had a handful of good performances but in general have been really poor.

 

Ive heard people say ‘what points have we not deserved?’. I could argue most of them!

 

- Sheffield Utd we were pathetic the entire 2nd half and 2 points knicked there.

- Wolves was an awful performance that we knicked from a huge slice of luck.

- Arsenal we were lucky to not go behind and we never win if we do because we are useless a majority of time when we go behind vs a very poor team I might add.

 

We deserved and played well vs West Brom, Leeds, Burnley and Brighton. The rest we’ve been fortunate. Even Man City, we never win that game if we go in 1-0 down. Walker gifted a pen when Vardy is going nowhere.

 

Switch it around, not one of our losses could anyone even question that we didn’t deserve! You could maybe argue Villa just because of the late nature, but we were pathetic in that game and no one can argue we deserved to win.

West ham and Liverpool absolutely ran us over. We looked like a mid table championship team in the FA Cup 3rd round vs them.

Fulham were very comfortable until the last 20 and Everton last night, we huffed and puffed but I’ve never been more sure we had lost the very second Kasper fumbles that in the net.

I have absolutely no confidence when we concede first because we have no fight to turn around a position of adversity ever. We can’t play through the midfield, Mendy is a passenger and too static , Tielemens doesn’t dictate as well without Wilf and/or Praet. So we end up going wide to Justin or Barnes who run into cul de sacs 99% of the time and get doubled up on.

Can see over and over again it happening, yet BR decides to not change the shape but just do a like for like ‘safe’ change taking off our most creative player Under for Perez. Gutless from management to playing staff.

 

Funnily enough, it was Everton last year at home that always upsets me how far we’ve dropped. We were losing 1-0 to Richarlson exactly the same. BR doesn’t wait as long, he changes it and actually ‘gambles’ puts nacho 2 up top and that ultimately wins the game. Ndidi and Tielemens ran the midfield in that 2nd half and I actually believed we could win that game. Even if we hadn’t won it, we fought hard, made gambles and the passion and fight was there. It was chalk and cheese compared to not only yesterday, but all 5 of our losses this season when the second the opener fly’s in we lose without a fight.

Its easy to say ‘it was one game’ Last night but it’s been nearly every game, even some we have won! BR has gotten more and more negative every month.
Vardy needs more help in games we concede first. It’s too easy to mark 1 up top when teams sit in a low block.

 

BR has had a huge problem with this for years even before us. I remember speaking to a Liverpool fan in 2014 before that big game vs Chelsea and when I said ‘you only need a draw, you must be huge favourites’ and he said ‘BR is great when we score first but if Chelsea score first he won’t be able to turn it around because he has no plan b’.

Yes Gerrard slipped, completely different game, but the point remains . He is a very scared manager to take risks when we’re losing and he only reacts at 2-0 when he feels it’s game over and he ‘has to’.

So yes it’s not a case of were 4th it’s ok. We have a very very huge problem that repeats itself of a lack of creativity. Vardy is icolated too often in games we are chasing, we need to get 2 on up top if we concede first and gamble, if we gamble and lose who cares? Not like we don’t lose anyway without a fight!

Wilf back in the middle will be a huge Improvement , Praet is so underrated, he needs to play more.

Obviously getting our fullbacks/CBS back will improve us too.

Its the first time though that I’m really not confident in BR that he actually knows what he’s doing.

We did go 1 - Nil down at Man City but came back and won. Some of what you say is true but I think alot of teams have had alot of luck as well and have been unlucky Sheff Utd a casing point played some positive football but been unlucky, I'm not saying we are comfortable doing exceptionally well and the Fulham game was awful IMO, However we are not the worst by a long shot and are where we are on merit with hard to cope with injuries. I feel frustrated because we could be better and should do better but under the circumstances deserve to be 4th and will hopefully get better.

[TeamRocket]

Why did under  get subbed? Just felt like he was doing well in 2nd half until he was subbed

 Odd that one 

[volpeazzurro]

3 hours ago, peach0000 said:

The best managers are constantly evolving and learning. Pep and Klopp have been excellent over the past three years and someone like Ancelotti would certainly be looking at them and trying to learn from them like they will him. 

Whatever his capacity for learning and notwithstanding he was managing teams expected to win, in the years prior to Everton he appears to have remained fairly relevant:

 

Paris Saint-Germain

• Ligue 1: 2012–13

Real Madrid

• Copa del Rey: 2013–14
• UEFA Champions League: 2013–14
• UEFA Super Cup: 2014
• FIFA Club World Cup: 2014

Bayern Munich

• Bundesliga: 2016–17^[145]
• DFL-Supercup: 2016,^[140] 2017^[148]

[sacreblueits442]

5 hours ago, deanolegend1989 said:

In my opinion, @ealingfox is correct. It’s easy for people to give the ‘perspective’ line to shut down people, but this season we have in general not been good enough.

We have had a handful of good performances but in general have been really poor.

 

Ive heard people say ‘what points have we not deserved?’. I could argue most of them!

 

- Sheffield Utd we were pathetic the entire 2nd half and 2 points knicked there.

- Wolves was an awful performance that we knicked from a huge slice of luck.

- Arsenal we were lucky to not go behind and we never win if we do because we are useless a majority of time when we go behind vs a very poor team I might add.

 

We deserved and played well vs West Brom, Leeds, Burnley and Brighton. The rest we’ve been fortunate. Even Man City, we never win that game if we go in 1-0 down. Walker gifted a pen when Vardy is going nowhere.

 

Switch it around, not one of our losses could anyone even question that we didn’t deserve! You could maybe argue Villa just because of the late nature, but we were pathetic in that game and no one can argue we deserved to win.

West ham and Liverpool absolutely ran us over. We looked like a mid table championship team in the FA Cup 3rd round vs them.

Fulham were very comfortable until the last 20 and Everton last night, we huffed and puffed but I’ve never been more sure we had lost the very second Kasper fumbles that in the net.

I have absolutely no confidence when we concede first because we have no fight to turn around a position of adversity ever. We can’t play through the midfield, Mendy is a passenger and too static , Tielemens doesn’t dictate as well without Wilf and/or Praet. So we end up going wide to Justin or Barnes who run into cul de sacs 99% of the time and get doubled up on.

Can see over and over again it happening, yet BR decides to not change the shape but just do a like for like ‘safe’ change taking off our most creative player Under for Perez. Gutless from management to playing staff.

 

Funnily enough, it was Everton last year at home that always upsets me how far we’ve dropped. We were losing 1-0 to Richarlson exactly the same. BR doesn’t wait as long, he changes it and actually ‘gambles’ puts nacho 2 up top and that ultimately wins the game. Ndidi and Tielemens ran the midfield in that 2nd half and I actually believed we could win that game. Even if we hadn’t won it, we fought hard, made gambles and the passion and fight was there. It was chalk and cheese compared to not only yesterday, but all 5 of our losses this season when the second the opener fly’s in we lose without a fight.

Its easy to say ‘it was one game’ Last night but it’s been nearly every game, even some we have won! BR has gotten more and more negative every month.
Vardy needs more help in games we concede first. It’s too easy to mark 1 up top when teams sit in a low block.

 

BR has had a huge problem with this for years even before us. I remember speaking to a Liverpool fan in 2014 before that big game vs Chelsea and when I said ‘you only need a draw, you must be huge favourites’ and he said ‘BR is great when we score first but if Chelsea score first he won’t be able to turn it around because he has no plan b’.

Yes Gerrard slipped, completely different game, but the point remains . He is a very scared manager to take risks when we’re losing and he only reacts at 2-0 when he feels it’s game over and he ‘has to’.

So yes it’s not a case of were 4th it’s ok. We have a very very huge problem that repeats itself of a lack of creativity. Vardy is icolated too often in games we are chasing, we need to get 2 on up top if we concede first and gamble, if we gamble and lose who cares? Not like we don’t lose anyway without a fight!

Wilf back in the middle will be a huge Improvement , Praet is so underrated, he needs to play more.

Obviously getting our fullbacks/CBS back will improve us too.

Its the first time though that I’m really not confident in BR that he actually knows what he’s doing.

...having read your post, it is strange that it has taken you so long to come to that conclusion!!!

[peach0000]

9 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

Whatever his capacity for learning and notwithstanding he was managing teams expected to win, in the years prior to Everton he appears to have remained fairly relevant:

 

Paris Saint-Germain

• Ligue 1: 2012–13

Real Madrid

• Copa del Rey: 2013–14
• UEFA Champions League: 2013–14
• UEFA Super Cup: 2014
• FIFA Club World Cup: 2014

Bayern Munich

• Bundesliga: 2016–17^[145]
• DFL-Supercup: 2016,^[140] 2017^[148]

My whole point was how excellently Everton were and how they seemed to be quite good at tactical fouls, something they've added to their game this season. The tactical foul has been excellently deployed by Klopp and Pep for three years. I merely suggested that Ancelotti as the world class manager he is may have looked at this area of Liverpools and Man Citys game, saw it's effectiveness and tried to learn from it and implement it himself (successfully I may add) I was never doubting Ancelottis credentials as a manager just merely praising his adaptability, forward thinking and ability to improve and learn even when he's been doing the job for so long.

[volpeazzurro]

5 minutes ago, peach0000 said:

My whole point was how excellently Everton were and how they seemed to be quite good at tactical fouls, something they've added to their game this season. The tactical foul has been excellently deployed by Klopp and Pep for three years. I merely suggested that Ancelotti as the world class manager he is may have looked at this area of Liverpools and Man Citys game, saw it's effectiveness and tried to learn from it and implement it himself (successfully I may add) I was never doubting Ancelottis credentials as a manager just merely praising his adaptability, forward thinking and ability to improve and learn even when he's been doing the job for so long.

You make a good point and although in some ways it's galling to see, we have to be prepared to do the same if need be to compete. Possibly there's an issue for referee's to be more aware also and dispense justice accordingly?

[peach0000]

Just now, volpeazzurro said:

You make a good point and although in some ways it's galling to see, we have to be prepared to do the same if need be to compete. Possibly there's an issue for referee's to be more aware also and dispense justice accordingly?

Exactly, that was one of the key things for me in the game, lee mason was completely played for a fool at times by the Everton players. Just small fouls constantly to break up momentum, a few were missed completely and some weren't punished sufficiently. Referees definitely need to take more notice and we need to stop being so soft and do it ourselves. 

[messerschmitt]

13 hours ago, peach0000 said:

Exactly, that was one of the key things for me in the game, lee mason was completely played for a fool at times by the Everton players. Just small fouls constantly to break up momentum, a few were missed completely and some weren't punished sufficiently. Referees definitely need to take more notice and we need to stop being so soft and do it ourselves. 

Richarlison was excelent here especially when it came to stopping the games momentum in the second half. It was embarrassing that Lee Mason let it carry on, I had to remind myself we were watching a football match and not a pantomime. I think he was playing in rollerskates, the brush of a blue shirt frequently sent him tumbling. On one occasion he went down clutching his face, then whilst down he started to hold his foot, then it seemed to be the side of his stomach that was the problem before the trainer came on to bandage his hand.

This took about 4 minutes and in the end I was shouting "he's behind you".

[gerblod]

On 16/12/2020 at 20:01, Hollyfox said:

Still think Morgan should have been put at the back and Wilfred moved into his best position. 

Youri and Madders were non existant as they were receiving the ball too deep. 

As been said, Kasper mistake, Vardy miss = fine margins. 

Can't believe how, 2nd, we had a spell where Kasper made a bad pass out to our right back and gave away a throw Youri ran into trouble and conceded a free kick. 

We must have had the ball in our half, unable to get out for about 10 minutes which eventually lead to their 2nd goal.

Couldn't agree with you more. When I saw Fuchs and Mendy in the starting eleven my heart sank. Including Morgan would have freed up N'Didi to, as you state, be in his optimum role. And, however slow Morgan is now said to be, he wouldn't need to move far to stymie crosses from the byeline and from corners. His sheer height and weight was what was needed and his passing out from defence is calm and accurate. Isn't it time BR committed to Luke Thomas? In being cautious about picking him, he puts in someone whose speed is waning. Still a Prem player but this game was as important to confidence as the Liverpool game was and Thomas has shown, very quickly, how focused, inventive and quick he is. He works well with Barnes and yet that opportunity to discomfit Everton was passed over. If Chilwell got in ahead of Fuchs, then Thomas should.

 

To matters in attack, I consider that BR is thinking percentages rather than opportunities. I've not read the thread, because I was too disappointed to think about the result until today - so if I've duplicated other posts apologies, but Ünder should not have been swapped for Perez. The dogma is that Vardy represents the best chance of scoring, but how many times, under Puel in particular, have we seen Vardy patiently waiting for the ball to arrive and nothing's appeared. We keep reassuring ourselves that he's got x seasons in his legs, and that's all well and good when the midfielders are giving him opportunities, but what's the alternative structure. Perez is that guy with the quick feet who should be scoring goals - he needs to be the alternative route to be doing so. Mendy is the guy you bring on when you have a lead - in Prem terms anyway.

 

The stuffing seems to go out of them when they get behind - there was sloppiness from Fofana, Tielemans and Schmeichel. Someone needs to step up and rally the lads in situations like this. After all it wasn't a good goal - just lucky.

[peach0000]

3 hours ago, messerschmitt said:

Richarlison was excelent here especially when it came to stopping the games momentum in the second half. It was embarrassing that Lee Mason let it carry on, I had to remind myself we were watching a football match and not a pantomime. I think he was playing in rollerskates, the brush of a blue shirt frequently sent him tumbling. On one occasion he went down clutching his face, then whilst down he started to hold his foot, then it seemed to be the side of his stomach that was the problem before the trainer came on to bandage his hand.

This took about 4 minutes and in the end I was shouting "he's behind you".

Yes he was, Allan was very good at it too until he came off. Allan has done it in every game this season as well. It's very clever but seems to go largely unnoticed.

[Alan Frost]

On 17/12/2020 at 11:32, Tom12345 said:

Enough has been said about the players, tactics and team selection. All I want to add is that, above all, what I find sadly missing in our team under Rodgers is the Fearless spirit that served us so well during the title winning season (and indeed in the two or so seasons since then even though we were not winning as much). The old guard led by the likes of Vardy, Albrighton, Mahrez, Simpson, Morgan, Fuchs and Kasper (and Evans as a joiner later) always seem to have this desire to win (shown by their body language), even though their output or skills may not get them over the line all the time. It was a different mentality but they chase endless causes (Vardy still does and Kasper still has that look of concern on his face when we are losing), they believed they belong and can win, and they push forward even if they could be hopeless long balls. We now have more skillful players and we can play  more beautiful football arguably, but it seems we have lost that grit and belief. We rather play safe and pass around at the back then to have a go but risk losing or losing the ball. Funnily enough, I think belief is above all the most important. We now have the skill but we don’t have as much that spirit. We are becoming a bit like Spurs in the last few seasons when they constantly play beautiful football but they never could put together a decent run to win the title (and they would like us lose games when they were expected to win). Admittedly though, we do not constantly play beautiful football - only some time - as we regularly put up subpar performances like against Everton and Fulham. Belief and team spirit is something fully under the responsibility of the manager - and to me this is what sets apart the best manager in the world from good but not great ones. I don’t know, but Rodgers’ interviews never gave me the impression that he has got this right yet. It also seem apparent on the pitch when we fans regularly moan about players strolling to the corner flag, passing sideways or backwards when we are chasing games in the last 10-15 mins, when we decide to pass backwards to our own half for freekicks when our CBs are up near the box ready for a header but the ball never came, etc.

 

I commented in the post match thread after our 3-0 win against Brighton that I didn’t like how we played the last 15 mins when we lacked drive. I said Klopp and Guardiola never allowed that to happen for Liverpool and Man City because they always say it is very important that the players always play with the same mentality. I said that I didn’t like it because that attitude would rub off on the team in the long run and when we need it to chase games. I was laughed at but this game showed exactly what I meant:.

 

https://www.foxestalk.co.uk/topic/124303-brighton-3-0-post-match-thread/?do=findComment&comment=5753885

 

I used to love watching the likes of Vardy  pushing and pushing and Kasper shouting from the back urging players to go forward. We tried to have a go. We still try, but not with the same belief and consistency. This, Rodgers, really needs to be reflected on and changed.

 

Fearless Foxes.

Totally agree. I would n't want to lose Rodgers but he never seems to me passionate enough on the touchline (or presumably in the dressing room at half time) or disappointed enough at our poorer results. This he should be able to put right. He has the intelligence IMO to put it right. We have IMO a better squad than 2025/26 but only Vardy and Kasper seem to have total commitment and even that shows signs of fading unless the rest can become inspired . That has to come from the manager and coaches. You can't expect individual players to "analyse" when we get these too frequent poorer than expected results . They need another message. At the moment the team is playing below the capability of the player's potential abilities. I dislike A. Ferguson as a man but his methods always achieved a team that played above their considerable, if expensive, abilities.

[Alan Frost]

1 minute ago, Alan Frost said:

Totally agree. I would n't want to lose Rodgers but he never seems to me passionate enough on the touchline (or presumably in the dressing room at half time) or disappointed enough at our poorer results. This he should be able to put right. He has the intelligence IMO to put it right. We have IMO a better squad than 2025/26 but only Vardy and Kasper seem to have total commitment and even that shows signs of fading unless the rest can become inspired . That has to come from the manager and coaches. You can't expect individual players to "analyse" when we get these too frequent poorer than expected results . They need another message. At the moment the team is playing below the capability of the player's potential abilities. I dislike A. Ferguson as a man but his methods always achieved a team that played above their considerable, if expensive, abilities.

Sorry about wrong dates ,I can never find an edit button.

[sacreblueits442]

50 minutes ago, Alan Frost said:

Totally agree. I would n't want to lose Rodgers but he never seems to me passionate enough on the touchline (or presumably in the dressing room at half time) or disappointed enough at our poorer results. This he should be able to put right. He has the intelligence IMO to put it right. We have IMO a better squad than 2025/26 but only Vardy and Kasper seem to have total commitment and even that shows signs of fading unless the rest can become inspired . That has to come from the manager and coaches. You can't expect individual players to "analyse" when we get these too frequent poorer than expected results . They need another message. At the moment the team is playing below the capability of the player's potential abilities. I dislike A. Ferguson as a man but his methods always achieved a team that played above their considerable, if expensive, abilities.

...is there something we should know.....!!!

[Tom12345]

7 hours ago, Alan Frost said:

Totally agree. I would n't want to lose Rodgers but he never seems to me passionate enough on the touchline (or presumably in the dressing room at half time) or disappointed enough at our poorer results. This he should be able to put right. He has the intelligence IMO to put it right. We have IMO a better squad than 2025/26 but only Vardy and Kasper seem to have total commitment and even that shows signs of fading unless the rest can become inspired . That has to come from the manager and coaches. You can't expect individual players to "analyse" when we get these too frequent poorer than expected results . They need another message. At the moment the team is playing below the capability of the player's potential abilities. I dislike A. Ferguson as a man but his methods always achieved a team that played above their considerable, if expensive, abilities.

Yeah, fully agree with Fergie and Man Utd. Fergie has this ability to get the team to perform better than the sum of the individual players (Neville brothers, Carrick, Butt etc were not great players) and they always believe they can and should rightfully win. Towards end of each game you always feel like they are about to score again no matter whether they are winning or losing. At the sight of that the opposition often turned defensive (and weak) and they in the end often panic and make errors. Man Utd never gave up. Look at all the ex-Man Utd players like Keane who now commentates, they always speak of Man Utd as if they have a right to be champions and they despise players who do not give 100% all the time. 

[fuchsntf]

7 hours ago, Alan Frost said:

Sorry about wrong dates ,I can never find an edit button.

3 dots  in your Own  post..

 Top right hand-corner.drop down choice..

[sacreblueits442]

8 minutes ago, Tom12345 said:

Yeah, fully agree with Fergie and Man Utd. Fergie has this ability to get the team to perform better than the sum of the individual players (Neville brothers, Carrick, Butt etc were not great players) and they always believe they can and should rightfully win. Towards end of each game you always feel like they are about to score again no matter whether they are winning or losing. At the sight of that the opposition often turned defensive (and weak) and they in the end often panic and make errors. Man Utd never gave up. Look at all the ex-Man Utd players like Keane who now commentates, they always speak of Man Utd as if they have a right to be champions and they despise players who do not give 100% all the time. 

...all about mindset...the only problem is cultivating it and it not coming across, as arrogance!!!

[Tom12345]

3 hours ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...all about mindset...the only problem is cultivating it and it not coming across, as arrogance!!!

Yeah. But the advantage is we have actually won and we have that in Vardy and Kasper. So it is important to further cultivate it and not let it slip, because as you sat it is not easy but as we had it dont try to undermine it. This is also why it is important to keep some of our title winning team to keep that mentality and spirit going - not sure why some fans here were so keen to get rid of players like that in the past and bring in new blood because their spirit is very hard to replace and is what distinguishes good sides from great sides. Just ask Man U. The constant chopping has cost them dearly and they are still struggling to get that spirit from the Fergie era back.

[Foxaholic ME]

On 18/12/2020 at 16:58, Alan Frost said:

Totally agree. I would n't want to lose Rodgers but he never seems to me passionate enough on the touchline (or presumably in the dressing room at half time) or disappointed enough at our poorer results. This he should be able to put right. He has the intelligence IMO to put it right. We have IMO a better squad than 2025/26 but only Vardy and Kasper seem to have total commitment and even that shows signs of fading unless the rest can become inspired . That has to come from the manager and coaches. You can't expect individual players to "analyse" when we get these too frequent poorer than expected results . They need another message. At the moment the team is playing below the capability of the player's potential abilities. I dislike A. Ferguson as a man but his methods always achieved a team that played above their considerable, if expensive, abilities.

Surely the most committed is Allbrighton   and Choudury is too committed   . The fact is all the title winners when they play I Iinclude fuchs  are more committed than the others 

[JonnyBoy]

On 17/12/2020 at 08:59, Marshall Cockney Fox said:

I think as regards JJ, you might be against consensus. Poor delivery yesterday. But not against Brighton.

world would be very boring if everyone had the same opinion. I'll stand by my point, he is prone to defensive mistakes which has cost us many times in the past, his end product quite often is disappointing and loses the ball often - hopefully this will improve and he will get there. I will re-visit end of season but people are blowing is horn too early and others will be quick to criticise next time he makes a mistake 

[Alan Frost]

On 19/12/2020 at 00:15, fuchsntf said:

3 dots  in your Own  post..

 Top right hand-corner.drop down choice..

Thanks. Watch this space for improved spelling and punctuation.