Group B: Denmark, Finland, Belgium, Russia

[ozleicester]

5 hours ago, stripeyfox said:

I've done a bit of First Aid training (work, FA etc) but so far touch wood never had to deploy my "skills" on a real non breathing person.

 

To tell the truth I'm really not sure how I would act.

 

Having never actually seen CPR for "real" I was quite suprised by the force used! Although it was a traumatic watch, I'll take that from it at least (although I hope I never have to do it)

 

 

 

5 hours ago, promised land said:

I’ve done a few first aid basic courses but I think if you were presented with that situation you’d just kick into instinct training and go through all you have been taught.

 

You wouldn’t really have time to think about it, I knew CPR was that brutal as I have heard before from people who have had it or done it that all the ribs break, they have to, they’re protecting the organs that you are trying to get to, to keep the patient alive.

 

Hopefully you’ll never have to administer it but if you did, with training you would be fine and most probably save a humans life, that’s got to be worth all the training you’ve ever done just to save a single life. Wouldn’t you say?

 

As for the Euros, I have really no interest now after seeing that last night. Hope he makes a full recovery.

 

3 hours ago, Parafox said:

When CPR is done correctly, it's common to hear and feel ribs cracking.

 

Good CPR is moving the chest 5cms (2 inches).. as Para and others say.. broken ribs are not uncommon, when i present about it i always tell people...
1) No-one in Australia (or the UK to my knowledge) has ever been sued/charged for harm when providing first aid.
2) Everyone would rather have broken ribs.. than be dead.

If you havent done a first aid course recently.. PLEASE do one... you think you will forget everything .. but you wont.. it will sit in your unconscious. and .....doing anything.. is better than doing nothing

[urban.spaceman]

49 minutes ago, moore_94 said:

 

From the second he collapsed Anthony Taylor paused the game and called for medics then Kjaer cleared his airway within about 10 seconds. They were performing compressions in less than 2 minutes. Quick thinking saves lives

[stripeyfox]

1 hour ago, ozleicester said:

 

 

 

Good CPR is moving the chest 5cms (2 inches).. as Para and others say.. broken ribs are not uncommon, when i present about it i always tell people...
1) No-one in Australia (or the UK to my knowledge) has ever been sued/charged for harm when providing first aid.
2) Everyone would rather have broken ribs.. than be dead.

If you havent done a first aid course recently.. PLEASE do one... you think you will forget everything .. but you wont.. it will sit in your unconscious. and .....doing anything.. is better than doing nothing

Closest I've come to a life or death situation was when one of the women at work started choking in the staff room. People were slow to react so I started hitting her on the back - but at first it was gentle, I didn't even know her! But as it got more frantic I started hitting her as hard as I could and then her sandwich went flying from her mouth across the room! 

 

As you say, doing nothing isn't going to help anyone. Doing something (especially in a cardiac arrest situation) can only help and can't exactly make things worse can it?

 

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

8 hours ago, shen said:

I think we're on different wave lengths here  

It clearly didn't work as traumatised players were playing a game of football yesterday and weren't taken care of. 

It was very jarring. 

 

I find the timing of this to also be quite peculiar when thinking of Naomi Osaka boycotting media duties the other week in direct criticism of the WTA not taking enough care of the mental well-being of their prime members. Neither does UEFA in actual fact.

I'm certain the players will be receiving excellent medical attention as did Eriksen.

 

From a physical health point of view playing the game then was probably the most logical thing - players take all kinds of caffeine and pain killers before a game and their training peaks for games so from that point of view that's probably why the call was made. From a mental health point of view who knows - it's an incredibly difficult and nuanced subject and those involved will be the ones who know, we can't second guess this. It's very easy to sit, judge and blame but the fact is we don't know and if Denmark had won would we be having this argument? At the end of the day they lost a game of football, they'll lose more, they'll win more - they'll probably just be pleased their mate us okay.

 

There is a wider problem and it's not uefas fault alone and that's how the players have been flogged for 2 years straight with little rest. Unfortunately Where's there is demand money makers will try and exploit and that's a different issue for discussion but a very important one. Why we need to have this tournament at all is a bit beyond me.

 

The Osaka case is very different I'm not sure how you can draw comparisons.

[Bert]

12 hours ago, stripeyfox said:

I've done a bit of First Aid training (work, FA etc) but so far touch wood never had to deploy my "skills" on a real non breathing person.

 

To tell the truth I'm really not sure how I would act.

 

Having never actually seen CPR for "real" I was quite suprised by the force used! Although it was a traumatic watch, I'll take that from it at least (although I hope I never have to do it)

 

 

I remember being told that to do it properly you should be breaking ribs. 

[shen]

10 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

I'm certain the players will be receiving excellent medical attention as did Eriksen.

 

From a physical health point of view playing the game then was probably the most logical thing - players take all kinds of caffeine and pain killers before a game and their training peaks for games so from that point of view that's probably why the call was made. From a mental health point of view who knows - it's an incredibly difficult and nuanced subject and those involved will be the ones who know, we can't second guess this. It's very easy to sit, judge and blame but the fact is we don't know and if Denmark had won would we be having this argument? At the end of the day they lost a game of football, they'll lose more, they'll win more - they'll probably just be pleased their mate us okay.

 

There is a wider problem and it's not uefas fault alone and that's how the players have been flogged for 2 years straight with little rest. Unfortunately Where's there is demand money makers will try and exploit and that's a different issue for discussion but a very important one. Why we need to have this tournament at all is a bit beyond me.

 

The Osaka case is very different I'm not sure how you can draw comparisons.

I don't believe there is any ill will or particular ignorance in what you write, but I cannot help but feel you are missing the point here.

The squad and staff were seen to by four crisis psychologists last night and today - most certainly initiated by DBU and not UEFA - to help them deal with the trauma. Chairman of DBU and Hjulmand have both come out saying today that they should not have played the game to the end. Hjulmand said he felt a lingering regret that he did not do more to prevent his players going out again, and Peter Møller tellingly replied journalists that it was a valid question ("should the players have finished the match?") and "would be good to discuss for future reference", because "like Kasper I do not feel the team should've played".

Hjulmand retold that he was in a room with Taylor, UEFA representatives and Finland's team leaders where it was laid out what the different scenarios were - and was basically tasked with telling his team it was "finish tonight or tomorrow noon". I'm absolutely not sure Hjulmand was in a right state of mind either - he's been choking throughout both press conferences yesterday and today.

 

Edit: As for the Osaka reference, I'm not making a direct comparison obviously. But this was a case of a leading organization not taking the welfare of it's core members, the players, very seriously at all - similar to Osaka's criticism of WTA. They've let the players and national team organizations down badly and the criticism that is coming in from all sides today is, in my opinion, fully justified. I completely expect this to have an aftermath.

Edited 13 June 2021 by shen

[Bert]

2 minutes ago, shen said:

I don't believe there is any ill will or particular ignorance in what you write, but I cannot help but feel you are missing the point here.

The squad and staff were seen to by four crisis psychologists last night and today - most certainly initiated by DBU and not UEFA - to help them deal with the trauma. Chairman of DBU and Hjulmand have both come out saying today that they should not have played the game to the end. Hjulmand said he felt a lingering regret that he did not do more to prevent his players going out again, and Peter Møller tellingly replied journalists that it was a valid question ("should the players have finished the match?") and "would be good to discuss for future reference", because "like Kasper I do not feel the team should've played".

Hjulmand retold that he was in a room with Taylor, UEFA representatives and Finland's team leaders where it was laid out what the different scenarios were - and was basically tasked with telling his team it was "finish tonight or tomorrow noon". I'm absolutely not sure Hjulmand was in a right state of mind either - he's been choking throughout both press conferences yesterday and today.

So what were the actual viable other options then? There was never ever going to be a winner from any of this. 

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

Just now, shen said:

I don't believe there is any ill will or particular ignorance in what you write, but I cannot help but feel you are missing the point here.

The squad and staff were seen to by four crisis psychologists last night and today - most certainly initiated by DBU and not UEFA - to help them deal with the trauma. Chairman of DBU and Hjulmand have both come out saying today that they should not have played the game to the end. Hjulmand said he felt a lingering regret that he did not do more to prevent his players going out again, and Peter Møller tellingly replied journalists that it was a valid question ("should the players have finished the match?") and "would be good to discuss for future reference", because "like Kasper I do not feel the team should've played".

Hjulmand retold that he was in a room with Taylor, UEFA representatives and Finland's team leaders where it was laid out what the different scenarios were - and was basically tasked with telling his team it was "finish tonight or tomorrow noon". I'm absolutely not sure Hjulmand was in a right state of mind either - he's been choking throughout both press conferences yesterday and today.

The fact is we don't know, there are two sides to almost every story and we'll only really know with the benefit of hindsight.

 

I don't know if I can put it any simpler than that. The easiest thing you can do is criticise people but I'm not sure that's fair.

[Arriba Los Zorros]

...

Edited 13 June 2021 by Arriba Los Zorros
Wrong thread

[shen]

1 minute ago, Bert said:

So what were the actual viable other options then? There was never ever going to be a winner from any of this. 

I would've preferred the game to be abandoned. Whether that meant Denmark were adjudged to have lost or the game finishing 0-0, I couldn't give two sh*ts. The point is you don't put a choice like this to players and staff who are in a state of shock. It's bloody trauma psychology 101. The fact that UEFA had no proper way of dealing with a crisis situation is, and has to be, scrutinized fully.

As I've stated earlier, you could absolutely have dealt with this today or tomorrow after the dust and the shock settles.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

4 minutes ago, shen said:

I would've preferred the game to be abandoned. Whether that meant Denmark were adjudged to have lost or the game finishing 0-0, I couldn't give two sh*ts. The point is you don't put a choice like this to players and staff who are in a state of shock. It's bloody trauma psychology 101. The fact that UEFA had no proper way of dealing with a crisis situation is, and has to be, scrutinized fully.

As I've stated earlier, you could absolutely have dealt with this today or tomorrow after the dust and the shock settles.

And that's fair on Finland? 

[Bert]

6 minutes ago, shen said:

I would've preferred the game to be abandoned. Whether that meant Denmark were adjudged to have lost or the game finishing 0-0, I couldn't give two sh*ts. The point is you don't put a choice like this to players and staff who are in a state of shock. It's bloody trauma psychology 101. The fact that UEFA had no proper way of dealing with a crisis situation is, and has to be, scrutinized fully.

As I've stated earlier, you could absolutely have dealt with this today or tomorrow after the dust and the shock settles.

This is fair enough in your opinion. I wasn’t being ignorant just intrigued to what the Danish people’s thoughts on it all were. The only thing for me is it then has a knock on effect on the other teams, the tournament. Like I have said, there was never gonna be a winner. 

[shen]

5 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

The fact is we don't know, there are two sides to almost every story and we'll only really know with the benefit of hindsight.

 

I don't know if I can put it any simpler than that. The easiest thing you can do is criticise people but I'm not sure that's fair.

But there isn't another side to the story... This is the unanimous recounting from the Danish camp and Finnish camps.

There was no hindsight in this - I  was screaming at the tele when it was announced the game would continue - anyone with an ounce of empathy and knowledge of human psychology would realise this completely wrong. And so it proved.

And to answer your previous question which seemed to suggest I'm only piping up because Denmark lost - I absolutely would be angered about it had Denmark won. The game became irrelevant, it was a cruel farce and I feel for players and fans present and who must've gone home in shock and confusion.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

Just now, shen said:

But there isn't another side to the story... This is the unanimous recounting from the Danish camp and Finnish camps.

There was no hindsight in this - I  was screaming at the tele when it was announced the game would continue - anyone with an ounce of empathy and knowledge of human psychology would realise this completely wrong. And so it proved.

And to answer your previous question which seemed to suggest I'm only piping up because Denmark lost - I absolutely would be angered about it had Denmark won. The game became irrelevant, it was a cruel farce and I feel for players and fans present and who must've gone home in shock and confusion.

Of course there is hindsight to this. Look, I get it, you're very angry about this but you can't possibly know what went on or how the individuals reacted. The easiest thing you can do is blame people. It's an incredibly difficult situation and one no one was going to get right.

[shen]

1 minute ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

And that's fair on Finland? 

Hjulmand revealed there was talk of moving the game to Monday, but "that wouldn't have been possible as Finland were already playing Wednesday". But this is all deflecting from the actual point.

How was it fair on either set of players to play that game to the end? The Finnish players were also rattled. But I'm staggered that you're turning this into a sporting discussion. Sport should have taken a back seat, which it didn't.

[shen]

Just now, Chocolate Teapot said:

Of course there is hindsight to this. Look, I get it, you're very angry about this but you can't possibly know what went on or how the individuals reacted. The easiest thing you can do is blame people. It's an incredibly difficult situation and one no one was going to get right.

The blame is crystal clear. It was a failure from the leading organization - UEFA first and foremost - and to some degree the Danish FA, who could've taken the decision to return back to the hotel, which probably would've lead to reprimands from UEFA. Of course this is a difficult situation. A crisis is by definition a difficult situation, but at this level and with this level of organization - being one of the biggest sporting, media and entertainment events of the year - you can rightfully expect proper preparation on the part of the organizers.

It was patently obvious the only right choice was to end or postpone the match - and also that it's not something you put forward to players.
It's not quite the same as the Clive Clarke incident due to the tournament conditions, but imagine if the players were asked to go out and play that game to the end? From a fellow LCFC supporter, I would expect a higher degree of understanding.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

Just now, shen said:

The blame is crystal clear. It was a failure from the leading organization - UEFA first and foremost - and to some degree the Danish FA, who could've taken the decision to return back to the hotel, which probably would've lead to reprimands from UEFA. Of course this is a difficult situation. A crisis is by definition a difficult situation, but at this level and with this level of organization - being one of the biggest sporting, media and entertainment events of the year - you can rightfully expect proper preparation on the part of the organizers.

It was patently obvious the only right choice was to end or postpone the match - and also that it's not something you put forward to players.
It's not quite the same as the Clive Clarke incident due to the tournament conditions, but imagine if the players were asked to go out and play that game to the end? From a fellow LCFC supporter, I would expect a higher degree of understanding.

My understanding is I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and of the difficulty of the situation. Today people need to blame someone immediately. What good that does I'm not so sure.

[shen]

5 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

My understanding is I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and of the difficulty of the situation. Today people need to blame someone immediately. What good that does I'm not so sure.

That hopefully this kind of procedure will be reviewed. This should not happen, not at any level, but especially not at this level.

I imagine the players will feel let down after this. I would hope for some solidarity, compassion and understanding in the future.

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

30 minutes ago, shen said:

That hopefully this kind of procedure will be reviewed. This should not happen, not at any level, but especially not at this level.

I imagine the players will feel let down after this. I would hope for some solidarity, compassion and understanding in the future.

I'm certain they'll do that anyway....and who knows how the players will feel. Some might feel pretty grateful.

 

You've so far criticised the TV companies, uefa and both FA's. Give them a break mate, believe it or not the vast majority of people working in those organisations were just normal decent human beings who were put in an unprecedented situation. Let's just be grateful they'd prepared themselves well enough to employ great medical staff and get them the right equipment 👍

[Gazi Giray]

On 13/06/2021 at 00:37, EastAnglianFox said:

 

With how much responsibility he took on and the way he dealt with everything happening around him I'm surprised he was even physically able to lace his boots back up. 

 

I know it's been mentioned a hundred times already but I have so much damn respect for people like that, even during the human shield the players put up you could see what type of character he is. 

 

 

We knew Kjaer from Turkish club Fenerbahçe days. He  is a real leader and warrior and  a real gentleman at the same time.  We call him Yellow Tower . In the past we had Jess Högh and Uche Ukechukwu in 1996. They were awesome duo.. .We remember Jess Hogh with the most respect. Kjaer reminds us Högh , he is a good man like him.

 

 

Edited 13 June 2021 by Gazi Giray

[shen]

33 minutes ago, Chocolate Teapot said:

I'm certain they'll do that anyway....and who knows how the players will feel. Some might feel pretty grateful.

 

You've so far criticised the TV companies, uefa and both FA's. Give them a break mate, believe it or not the vast majority of people working in those organisations were just normal decent human beings who were put in an unprecedented situation. Let's just be grateful they'd prepared themselves well enough to employ great medical staff and get them the right equipment 👍

I haven't criticised the TV companies, I've only questioned the explanation that broadcasters had a global feed and therefore no control over the images. Some broadcasters managed to cut away so questions are fair, surely?

I haven't criticised the two FA's. As you say, the people in those rooms were put on the spot. By the Danish FAs own admission, in hindsight they would not have wanted the players to go out on the pitch that same night or even be faced with such a choice. I would've admired them incredibly if they ignored the UEFA delegates and refused to accept either option presented, but I completely understand them trying to comply. I respect they've come out and suggested it was a mistake and I expect them to address it at the next meeting with UEFA.
Hjulmand was in no state to make a decision either and was just being a professional and reasonable colleague. The Finnish graciously let the Danish team make the decision, but as I've said many times now, this should not have been on their shoulders.

It made no sense to even discuss the game right there and then and it should have been an executive decision by UEFA to postpone indefinitely, reflect and discuss internally and with the various FAs before suggesting or deciding a course of action. I'm not saying I have a clear and obvious solution, or that there is one, but anything would have been better than the scenario we witnessed.

Edited 13 June 2021 by shen
missing word

[Finnegan]

3 hours ago, Bert said:

I remember being told that to do it properly you should be breaking ribs. 

 

Someone's exaggerated to you a little bit. It's definitely common, about a third of successful CPR attempts (as in, actually waking someone up) result in significant injury to the ribs or sternum, but it's a stretch to say you're not doing it properly if you're not breaking anything. 

[Guest Col city fan]

5 hours ago, Bert said:

I remember being told that to do it properly you should be breaking ribs. 

Good God no. You’ve been told completely wrong 

[moore_94]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9683825/Christian-Eriksen-Kasper-Schmeichel-reveals-star-smiled-laughed-hospital-visit.html
 

Kasper Schmeichel admits it was 'damn nice' to see Christian Eriksen 'smile, laugh and be himself' after visiting his stricken Denmark team-mate in hospital... as he opens up on the 'violent, inhuman situation' and hails the response of Simon Kjaer

 

Kasper Schmeichel has revealed that the 'wonderful experience' of visiting Christian Eriksenin hospital is helping him cope with the horror of his team-mate's collapse.
 

The Inter Milan midfielder required 13 minutes of CPR after suffering a cardiac arrest just before half-time in Denmark's Euro 2020 opener with Finland on Saturday, but is now in a stable condition in hospital.
 

Schmeichel visited Eriksen on Sunday and says it was 'great' to see the progress the former Tottenham star has made, less than 48 hours after it was feared he had died on the pitch in Copenhagen.
 

During a press conference on Monday, the Leicester goalkeeper said: 'It was damn nice to see him smile and laugh and be himself. Just notice that he is there. 
 

'It was a wonderful experience and something that has helped me see that he was okay after lying there.

 

'We talked about nothing and everything. As long as he is well - that has been the most important thing. He has experienced something that we have not experienced. 

 

'He has a completely different experience of the situation. It was great to talk to him, and now we have a lot of work to try to navigate.'

 

Schmeichel, who helped form a protective barrier around Eriksen with the rest of his team-mates, also opened up on the 'violent experience' of seeing his friend receive CPR on the pitch.

 

'It's a violent experience,' he said. 'But he is here today, and I am very grateful for that

 

The only heroes there are are the doctors who saved him. We are professional football players, but these people dedicate their lives to saving people. That they could do it under that pressure. 

 

'I cannot describe how much admiration I have for them. That they could bring him back is a miracle. I even think about how I would have my team-mates react if I was lying there. And then we have some amazing people on this team. A captain and a coach who knows how to act.

 

'It characterises us as a team and country that we stand together until the very end.

 

'Personally, I tried to imagine if it was me who was lying there. I knew Christian's wife, children, and parents were there, so at one point I tried to look for them. 
 

'It is an inhuman situation for them to go through.'

 

Schmeichel also reserved special praise for his captain Simon Kjaer, who was the first to attend to Eriksen and helped open his airway before medics arrived, and later consoled the midfielder's wife Sabrina.

 

'I am incredibly proud to have him as captain,' Schmeichel added.

 

'It does not surprise me that he did as he did. He has an incredibly sensitive and human side of him. Simon and Christian spend a lot of time together in Milan as they live close to each other.

 

'We did not make any decisions. We did, as we did. I think it's a very natural thing. 
 

'Simon... I do not know what to say. He is not only an exceptional person.'

 

In a short statement to Gazzetta dello Sport on Monday, Eriksen confirmed that he is feeling better and thanked everyone who helped save his life.

 

He said: 'Thank you, I won't give up. I feel better now - but I want to understand what's happened.

'I want to say thank you all for what you did for me.'

Edited 14 June 2021 by moore_94

[shen]

More comments to the press by the players.

 

Schmeichel: "I visited him yesterday and he was in good spirits. It was great to see him again. He is his usual self. It has been a violent experience for everyone. As he said to me, he was not 'present' to experience it all, so it will probably hit him a little later."

"It is clear that he and his family are very moved by the situation. The most important thing for all of us is that he is well. That is what we are clinging on to and that allows us to try to continue"

Braithwaite: "I think all people saw it and I would rather not go back there. It's a place I see all day long. I see these pictures in my head all the time so I have no need to go back to it."

 

"There are a lot of things that you do not notice in the situation, but only see and hear afterwards. You do not see everything completely clearly", says Martin Braithwaite. It did not take long before he realized how serious it was.

"Relatively fast. I saw the ball hit him on the leg, thinking in the first moment: 'What's going on?'. I thought he was toppling over, and with the way he toppled over, I knew right away that it was bad."

"I came over there after Mæhle, and then Kjær came. We got him on the side, and then the time really just went by calling people for help as soon as possible", Braithwaite remembers.

 

"That (praying) was the only thing I could control at that moment. I could do nothing for my friend other than ask for help from somewhere else, and that was really what I was doing."

"I do not remember what exactly I said, but 100 percent that I wanted to see Christian back, as we know him, and it went quickly that he came back. I am insanely happy to see that he is well again"

"For me, it was still hard to understand, to be honest, that he was okay. I saw before he got into the ambulance that he was conscious and could talk, and I did not understand that either. There were a lot of questions and I could not quite understand it. It was a very, very difficult and strange situation", Braithwaite emphasizes.

 

He also admits that it was strange to have to finish the match after such an experience:

"It was a special situation. It was like a ghost where things just went on and time just went by. I do not remember much."

"Of course I remember things from the match, but it was just ... you had an extreme experience, and then you had to go out and play afterwards. It was very special,"

 

The Danes will resume training this Monday, and Martin Braithwaite is looking forward to getting started again, although the emotions are still many. "Most important of all is that Christian is well, and we saw him yesterday. That's what matters. As players, we have experienced something terrible in this situation, but it is nothing compared to his family and how they have had it."
"But we stand together, and we will be strong. Personally for me, having football makes me concentrate on not thinking about anything else. Then I can shut everything out", says Braithwaite.

Edited 14 June 2021 by shen