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Group D: England, Croatia, Scotland, Czech Republic

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12 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

It is fascinating that Scotland really look naff in every tournament, with the support the sport has and the quality of some of the players.

 

I'd put it down to the quality of the league - which is quite poor - and the fact they've so many teams. England has a lot of teams, no doubt, but it's got a well structured league with opportunities at every level.

 

Scotland has a dozen teams in top flight, most of whom would struggle in our second tier.

totally agree with you i live in Edinburgh but dont go to any games as it is pretty poor. Does not matter how many times the s.f.a. try to rearrange the leauges it still will not change any thing much rather get down to king power and watch football there

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1 hour ago, shen said:

Hadn't realised Scotland had such a poor record. Compare that to similar sized or smaller countries like Croatia, Iceland, Denmark, Ireland, Wales, Costa Rica, Norway who've all progressed in fewer attempts.

 

I mean they only really just scraped in to the tournament anyway Tbf. 

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14 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

I mean they only really just scraped in to the tournament anyway Tbf. 

Sure, but how does that explain 10 other major tournament participations without progress from the group?

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1 hour ago, fox_up_north said:

It is fascinating that Scotland really look naff in every tournament, with the support the sport has and the quality of some of the players.

 

I'd put it down to the quality of the league - which is quite poor - and the fact they've so many teams. England has a lot of teams, no doubt, but it's got a well structured league with opportunities at every level.

 

Scotland has a dozen teams in top flight, most of whom would struggle in our second tier.

The reason we have been so bad for so long goes right down to grass roots level. 

 

For generations, the funding for kids learning the game was almost non existent and the attitude of those teaching them was worse. I'm 35 and growing up, the only pitches available to play on were those red gravel pitches you used to see and the coaches that would come into schools wouldn't look at you unless you were over 6 foot and we stuck with that game plan for soooo long. Even as recently as Gordon Strachan who suggested the reason we failed to qualify under him was because we weren't physically big enough. It was footballing dinosaurs who were responsible for bringing through the next generation of players. 

 

It's only been in the last 10 years or so that we've remodeled our grass roots and made top facilities available to youngsters playing the game and I think thats why we are starting to see the early stages of talented players like Gilmour, Turnbull, Patterson, Doig, Neilsen, Porteous.

 

In this tournament specifically, I think we played relatively well in every game with that touch of quality in either box being the difference between us and the rest of the teams. 

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I'm finding myself actively wanting Southgate to fail. I hate to see anti-football succeed. If you're not a great team then I understand surrendering possession, that's fine. What I can't stand are teams that are so risk averse they'd rather not attack with any conviction for fear of losing the ball and conceding a goal. 

 

Title winning Leicester were not particularly good footballers, save for a couple of worldies, we sat in deep and frustrated teams, whenever we won the ball though we would spring forward at pace and you genuinely felt we had a chance of scoring whenever Leicester won possession back.

 

Much like under Rodgers recently, there's very little conviction in attacks and everything is played incredibly safe for fear of losing the ball and letting the other team attack.

 

Football as a whole seems to be trending this way and it's making the pro game less and less watchable with every passing season.

 

I'm yearning for the day that ifab introduce rules that encourage attacking and scoring goals.

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1 minute ago, filbertway said:

I'm finding myself actively wanting Southgate to fail. I hate to see anti-football succeed. If you're not a great team then I understand surrendering possession, that's fine. What I can't stand are teams that are so risk averse they'd rather not attack with any conviction for fear of losing the ball and conceding a goal. 

 

Title winning Leicester were not particularly good footballers, save for a couple of worldies, we sat in deep and frustrated teams, whenever we won the ball though we would spring forward at pace and you genuinely felt we had a chance of scoring whenever Leicester won possession back.

 

Much like under Rodgers recently, there's very little conviction in attacks and everything is played incredibly safe for fear of losing the ball and letting the other team attack.

 

Football as a whole seems to be trending this way and it's making the pro game less and less watchable with every passing season.

 

I'm yearning for the day that ifab introduce rules that encourage attacking and scoring goals.

Brian Clough: ‘you can’t succeed if you concede goals. Any good side is based upon a solid defence. It’s the foundation of any good team, never mind football, getting the basics right is the foundation of any success in life’

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9 minutes ago, Cardiff_Fox said:

In defence of Scotland, you have to bear in mind that qualifiers were home internationals for a long stretch. Some decent Scottish and Welsh teams denied qualification whilst some utter turd got in. 

That's not much of a defence - you even mention Wales who've only qualified three times, reaching the QF in the WC and SF in the Euros.
By comparison, Scotland have qualified 11 (8+3) times. Only Uruguay (13) and Denmark (5+9), of the countries smaller/same size, have qualified more often and both of those have won a major tournament.

Edited by shen
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15 minutes ago, Col city fan said:

Brian Clough: ‘you can’t succeed if you concede goals. Any good side is based upon a solid defence. It’s the foundation of any good team, never mind football, getting the basics right is the foundation of any success in life’

No issues with defending well, part of the game. Win your duels and your aerial battles.

 

It shouldn't come at the expensive of getting men forwards and trying to score goals.

 

I die a little inside when people seem to prefer not losing to winning. Keeping a clean sheet instead of scoring. It's such a weird and alien mindset to me that I'll never get it lol

 

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1 hour ago, filbertway said:

No issues with defending well, part of the game. Win your duels and your aerial battles.

 

It shouldn't come at the expensive of getting men forwards and trying to score goals.

 

I die a little inside when people seem to prefer not losing to winning. Keeping a clean sheet instead of scoring. It's such a weird and alien mindset to me that I'll never get it lol

 

I don’t think that’s what Clough meant mate. Simply to be able to get forward with confidence necessitates having a good, solid defence.

That was what scuppered City again at the arse end of last season. Our defence was shot, we looked like conceding...and we did. However many we scored, we knew we’d concede more

At least England have now got that bedrock at the back. However derided he is on here, Maguire is a leader and I’m glad he’s back in the side.

Now it’s time to allow our attacking players more freedom. If Southgate keeps them shackled anymore I’m going to scream at the tele 

👍

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4 hours ago, fox_up_north said:

It is fascinating that Scotland really look naff in every tournament, with the support the sport has and the quality of some of the players.

 

I'd put it down to the quality of the league - which is quite poor - and the fact they've so many teams. England has a lot of teams, no doubt, but it's got a well structured league with opportunities at every level.

 

Scotland has a dozen teams in top flight, most of whom would struggle in our second tier.

 

Scotland havr a better league than Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Austria, Serbia etc. But all those nations have produced better results over the last 2 decades. On top of Scotland having a better league than those nations,  they also have the benefit of having some of their young players come through Premier League academies + they have the pick of English players with Scottish ancestry. Not to mention their neighbours Wales have done exceptionally in recent years.  When you factor in all those things, Scotland really have underachieved so badly. 

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3 hours ago, Koke said:

 

Scotland havr a better league than Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Austria, Serbia etc. But all those nations have produced better results over the last 2 decades. On top of Scotland having a better league than those nations,  they also have the benefit of having some of their young players come through Premier League academies + they have the pick of English players with Scottish ancestry. Not to mention their neighbours Wales have done exceptionally in recent years.  When you factor in all those things, Scotland really have underachieved so badly. 


Yeah but a lot of those countries players you listed end up being scouted early by German and French teams and apart from Celtic and rangers how is the Scottish league better than their home leagues? until the last couple seasons it's been a 1 team league for nearly a decade. Wales are literally a part of the English football structure so it's hard to compare. Regardless football is football just because you have a decent team sometimes doesn't always mean things go your way it's like comparing Leicester to a similar sized club and saying well they haven't won the prem well that's because football is a funny mistress and completely a symmetrical.

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6 hours ago, Koke said:

 

Scotland havr a better league than Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Austria, Serbia etc. But all those nations have produced better results over the last 2 decades. On top of Scotland having a better league than those nations,  they also have the benefit of having some of their young players come through Premier League academies + they have the pick of English players with Scottish ancestry. Not to mention their neighbours Wales have done exceptionally in recent years.  When you factor in all those things, Scotland really have underachieved so badly. 


Wouldn’t say Denmark , Sweden and Austria are worse leagues than the SPL

 

They have pretty similar European records over the last decade 

Edited by MattFox
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6 minutes ago, MattFox said:


Wouldn’t say Denmark , Sweden and Austria are worse leagues than the SPL

 

They have pretty similar European records over the last decade 

The SPL has a higher UEFA coefficient than the Danish, Serbian and Austrian leagues, so it's arguably marginally stronger.

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17 hours ago, filbertway said:

I'm finding myself actively wanting Southgate to fail. I hate to see anti-football succeed. If you're not a great team then I understand surrendering possession, that's fine. What I can't stand are teams that are so risk averse they'd rather not attack with any conviction for fear of losing the ball and conceding a goal. 

 

Title winning Leicester were not particularly good footballers, save for a couple of worldies, we sat in deep and frustrated teams, whenever we won the ball though we would spring forward at pace and you genuinely felt we had a chance of scoring whenever Leicester won possession back.

 

Much like under Rodgers recently, there's very little conviction in attacks and everything is played incredibly safe for fear of losing the ball and letting the other team attack.

 

Football as a whole seems to be trending this way and it's making the pro game less and less watchable with every passing season.

 

I'm yearning for the day that ifab introduce rules that encourage attacking and scoring goals.

The sad thing is now I feel like the answer to this has been an increased number of penalties.

 

The amount of the game now that's about just winning a penalty is really a bit boring. Clever or not. It's just not in any way entertaining. There's been such penalty overkill that I roll my eyes when they're given now, even correctly lol 

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18 hours ago, Koke said:

 

Scotland havr a better league than Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Austria, Serbia etc. But all those nations have produced better results over the last 2 decades. On top of Scotland having a better league than those nations,  they also have the benefit of having some of their young players come through Premier League academies + they have the pick of English players with Scottish ancestry. Not to mention their neighbours Wales have done exceptionally in recent years.  When you factor in all those things, Scotland really have underachieved so badly. 

 

My $0.02:

 

For years, one of the problems was Celtic and Rangers hoovering up Scottish talent from Hibs, Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee Utd, etc and then not always letting them flourish, occasionally sitting them on the bench while they fielded Jonny van Foreigner instead.

 

(Part 96 of "Why the OF stifle the rest of the game up here...")

 

Many of the players seeking their fortunes down South used to go to the elite clubs down there, all the great English clubs in the 70s and 80s had Scots in them.

 

Nowadays,  however, Premier League clubs are buying their own Jonny van Foreigners, so Scots end up plying their trade at Championship clubs and below.

 

Lastly, some of the National Team managers have struggled with the role, too.  Levein and Strachan were broken men by the end.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Dan LCFC said:

The sad thing is now I feel like the answer to this has been an increased number of penalties.

 

The amount of the game now that's about just winning a penalty is really a bit boring. Clever or not. It's just not in any way entertaining. There's been such penalty overkill that I roll my eyes when they're given now, even correctly lol 

Oh god, don't get me started on penalties. The scary thing is that more and more people seem to be buying into this weird thing where contact + dive means it should be a penalty. 

 

If you catch yourself saying "he went down a bit easily there", then it's probably not a penalty. Just because you're in the penalty area, doesn't mean that contact and cheating should automatically be rewarded.

 

I'd love to see cheating punished correctly. If you dive by trying to win a penalty, that's just as bad as sything someone down or handballing to prevent a goal scoring opportunity. You're cheating to try and manufacture a free goalscoring opportunity. It should be a red and a three game ban. Increasing by 1 game for each offence.

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1 hour ago, Super_horns said:

Bad news for Croatia.

 

Perisic has tested positive for covid.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57627620

He may have got it when they played Scotland - although obviously there’s no way it could be related to the Billy Gilmour positive test as no Scotland players or staff were in close contact with Gilmour in the hotel, changing rooms, bus, etc.

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