Jimmy Carr and that joke

[ealingfox]

31 minutes ago, Captain... said:

But he didn't need to explain it to his audience, that is why comedy is subjective.

 

Yes but Jimmy Carr fans laugh at a poundshop Woody Woodpecker fake laugh so I'll be disregarding their opinions thanks.

[NorthWalesFox]

I think anyone who has ever worked in retail laughed at that joke

[Aus Fox]

33 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

Yes but Jimmy Carr fans laugh at a poundshop Woody Woodpecker fake laugh so I'll be disregarding their opinions thanks.

Here lies one of the biggest problems we have right now as a society. People make a decision, stick to it and refuse to listen to anyone with an opposing opinion. Going further to insult and try to put down someone who dares to think differently.

This is one small example, but it’s rife right now, with people refusing to engage in any sort of meaningful or intellectual discussion. 

[Captain...]

36 minutes ago, ealingfox said:

 

Yes but Jimmy Carr fans laugh at a poundshop Woody Woodpecker fake laugh so I'll be disregarding their opinions thanks.

Why? The joke was aimed at his fans. Their opinion is the main one that counts. If his fans, and he has a lot, find it funny, therefore it is funny. If it is funny then it's a joke. If it's a joke then why is everyone getting so upset?

 

I don't think anyone believes Carr or his fans actually think killing gypsies is a positive.

[urban.spaceman]

3 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Why? The joke was aimed at his fans. Their opinion is the main one that counts. If his fans, and he has a lot, find it funny, therefore it is funny. If it is funny then it's a joke. If it's a joke then why is everyone getting so upset?

 

I don't think anyone believes Carr or his fans actually think killing gypsies is a positive.

There's a worrying amount of people who genuinely believe that.

[fox_up_north]

My main issue with Jimmy Carr is he's far more intelligent than the comedy he delivers, similar to Frankie Boyle, and his delivery is rubbish.

 

Vast majority of his material is nicked and read in jokebook style. Maybe he could mix in things from HIS perspective. From his understanding of the world. 

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Why? The joke was aimed at his fans. Their opinion is the main one that counts. If his fans, and he has a lot, find it funny, therefore it is funny. If it is funny then it's a joke. If it's a joke then why is everyone getting so upset?

 

I don't think anyone believes Carr or his fans actually think killing gypsies is a positive.

 

4 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

There's a worrying amount of people who genuinely believe that.

I believe that there is a non-zero number of people (hopefully and probably very low) who genuinely do hold such beliefs, yes. I don't see how that's controversial when in a sufficient sample of people you will get some racist nutters, especially in the current climate.

[urban.spaceman]

11 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Nah, he doesn't get to pretend that social strata doesn't exist or that people are discriminated against based on it just because he's on a high level of it.

 

"Punching up" and "punching down" are real things, Chappelle did it, and speaking purely for myself the latter is distasteful because it's pretty much bullying to go after someone who doesn't have that much social power in the first place.

This is where people have mistaken the subject and the target of the joke. He's not going after trans people, he's going after the trans activists, who actually DO have a lot of clout on social media. Like he says in his show, Daphne was bullied by her own community for posting that tweet defending him. So much so that she killed herself. While he does use unpleasant language, from the perspective of someone who isn't sensitive or understanding of trans issues, he humanises Daphne and her struggle perfectly IMO. He's calling out bullies, not bullying.

[urban.spaceman]

12 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

I believe that there is a non-zero number of people (hopefully and probably very low) who genuinely do hold such beliefs, yes. I don't see how that's controversial when in a sufficient sample of people you will get some racist nutters, especially in the current climate.

But he's not playing to them, he's playing to everyone else who understands that it's wrong. Some people seem to think this was said by a Nazi at a Nazi rally to other Nazis. It was said on stage by a comedian in a comedy show to comedy fans.

 

That's why it took 6 weeks for it to have caused outrage. Someone had to take a 30 second gag of a one hour set, remove Carr's own explanation, and present it out of context in order to generate outrage. 

[ealingfox]

38 minutes ago, Aus Fox said:

Here lies one of the biggest problems we have right now as a society. People make a decision, stick to it and refuse to listen to anyone with an opposing opinion. Going further to insult and try to put down someone who dares to think differently.

This is one small example, but it’s rife right now, with people refusing to engage in any sort of meaningful or intellectual discussion. 

 

How ironic - it was a joke.

 

33 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Why? The joke was aimed at his fans. Their opinion is the main one that counts. If his fans, and he has a lot, find it funny, therefore it is funny. If it is funny then it's a joke. If it's a joke then why is everyone getting so upset?

 

I don't think anyone believes Carr or his fans actually think killing gypsies is a positive.

 

Sorry Jimmy.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

This is where people have mistaken the subject and the target of the joke. He's not going after trans people, he's going after the trans activists, who actually DO have a lot of clout on social media. Like he says in his show, Daphne was bullied by her own community for posting that tweet defending him. So much so that she killed herself. While he does use unpleasant language, from the perspective of someone who isn't sensitive or understanding of trans issues, he humanises Daphne and her struggle perfectly IMO. He's calling out bullies, not bullying.

.... that's certainly one side of the story, I guess.

 

Personally, though I agree with your viewpoint on activists and how much clout they may or may not have, based on what I've seen of the guy I don't think he views trans people (which is the important thing here) as anything other than a verbal punchbag. Which is no way to treat a demographic which is already one of the most marginalised out there.

 

1 minute ago, urban.spaceman said:

But he's not playing to them, he's playing to everyone else who understands that it's wrong. Some people seem to think this was said by a Nazi at a Nazi rally to other Nazis. It was said on stage by a comedian in a comedy show to comedy fans.

 

That's why it took 6 weeks for it to have caused outrage. Someone had to take a 30 second gag of a one hour set, remove Carr's own explanation, and present it out of context in order to generate outrage. 

That's most probably true.

 

But as the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and right now beliefs like the one joked about are undergoing something of a resurgence, perhaps such examination shouldn't be dismissed out of hand because it's intent is an obvious joke to "everyone".

[bovril]

15 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

But he's not playing to them, he's playing to everyone else who understands that it's wrong. Some people seem to think this was said by a Nazi at a Nazi rally to other Nazis. It was said on stage by a comedian in a comedy show to comedy fans.

 

That's why it took 6 weeks for it to have caused outrage. Someone had to take a 30 second gag of a one hour set, remove Carr's own explanation, and present it out of context in order to generate outrage. 

You can find the joke funny if you want, it's your choice and I can't change that.

 

But you need to understand that outrage to this has not been artificially 'generated'. I think that's all some of us are asking. I've seen more disquiet than outrage anyway, at least from people I know. If someone thinks that all the reaction to the joke is manufactured, as I said in a previous post they have led a sheltered life. 

[urban.spaceman]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

.... that's certainly one side of the story, I guess.

 

Personally, though I agree with your viewpoint on activists and how much clout they may or may not have, based on what I've seen of the guy I don't think he views trans people (which is the important thing here) as anything other than a verbal punchbag. Which is no way to treat a demographic which is already one of the most marginalised out there.

 

That's most probably true.

 

But as the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and right now beliefs like the one joked about are undergoing something of a resurgence, perhaps such examination shouldn't be dismissed out of hand because it's intent is an obvious joke to "everyone".

Something that has become really prevalent in the last few years, a phrase that was coined by Dubya Bush and popularised more recently by Maajid Nawaz (what a combo btw): "the soft bigotry of low expectations". Generally defined as "Not expecting disadvantaged people or minorities to meet the same standard of behaviour or achievement set for most people."

 

But that applies here I feel. Having such low expectations of majority groups that you automatically assume that they believe something. It's like people who put "anti-fascist/anti-racist" in their twitter profiles - I always thought that was the default position? Yes there are vile people but to apply that to absolutely everyone by default is just insane and they're absolutely not the people Carr or Chappelle are playing to. They're playing to their own fans, people who understand what they're doing.

 

As Daphne said, Chappelle is a master of his craft, and that applies to Carr too. Most people understand that, and the only way people have managed to generate outrage is to take it out of its context and present it as hate speech, when it's absolutely not.

 

Some people are genuinely too serious for their own good.

[filbertway]

48 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

My main issue with Jimmy Carr is he's far more intelligent than the comedy he delivers, similar to Frankie Boyle, and his delivery is rubbish.

 

Vast majority of his material is nicked and read in jokebook style. Maybe he could mix in things from HIS perspective. From his understanding of the world. 

 

 

Being a successful millionaire comedian, I'm sure he would appreciate a good chat with you about how he can improve.

 

[Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot]

Reminds me of the interview about the abomination that was monty python and the Holy grail. 

[Captain...]

1 hour ago, urban.spaceman said:

There's a worrying amount of people who genuinely believe that.

Of course, otherwise it wouldn't work as a joke, it plays on those prejudices. Most of us at some point will have heard anti-traveller sentiments. A lot of us will have been inconvenienced by them and have probably expressed frustration at some of their antisocial behaviour. So the idea that someone would not like travellers is plausible, but the idea that anyone would actually see anything positive come out of the Holocaust is laughably absurd. Hence the joke.

[leicsmac]

46 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Something that has become really prevalent in the last few years, a phrase that was coined by Dubya Bush and popularised more recently by Maajid Nawaz (what a combo btw): "the soft bigotry of low expectations". Generally defined as "Not expecting disadvantaged people or minorities to meet the same standard of behaviour or achievement set for most people."

 

 

Both Mr Bush and Mr Nawaz would have a point if equality of opportunity was a thing across all demographics in the UK and US (to say nothing of the rest of the world) and as such those disadvantaged people had to work the same amount to meet the same standard as "most people".

 

That is empirically not the case and there is still a massively clear general social strata based on various demographics including financial, so I've no idea why it's considered to be a salient argument - the expectation is for disadvantaged people to do more, much more, to meet the same standard of achievement. Since when is that in any way equitable?

 

46 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

But that applies here I feel. Having such low expectations of majority groups that you automatically assume that they believe something. It's like people who put "anti-fascist/anti-racist" in their twitter profiles - I always thought that was the default position? Yes there are vile people but to apply that to absolutely everyone by default is just insane and they're absolutely not the people Carr or Chappelle are playing to. They're playing to their own fans, people who understand what they're doing.

 

 

I would have thought the past four/five years would have shown that while there aren't many "vile" people, there are enough of them to significantly affect society in various ways - some legislative, some not. Once society becomes affected in that fashion, I wonder whether such low expectations are justified as they seem to be running the show somewhat, rather than the "everyone".

 

46 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

As Daphne said, Chappelle is a master of his craft, and that applies to Carr too. Most people understand that, and the only way people have managed to generate outrage is to take it out of its context and present it as hate speech, when it's absolutely not.

 

Some people are genuinely too serious for their own good.

True.

 

And some people aren't serious enough about the impersonal. Which is of course their choice, but for me it's morally and more importantly practically dodgy. Try dealing with climate change (yes, I know, I went there again) when it becomes personal to everyone and see where it gets humanity.

 

I guess we don't really see eye to eye on this one and I think we've talked about it before, but I continue to maintain that as long as there is social distinction (and there are people with power who work very hard to keep it that way), comedy will always have elements of "punching up" and "punching down" and can be judged accordingly.

[bovril]

34 minutes ago, Captain... said:

Of course, otherwise it wouldn't work as a joke, it plays on those prejudices. Most of us at some point will have heard anti-traveller sentiments. A lot of us will have been inconvenienced by them and have probably expressed frustration at some of their antisocial behaviour. So the idea that someone would not like travellers is plausible, but the idea that anyone would actually see anything positive come out of the Holocaust is laughably absurd. Hence the joke.

To be fair there are probably millions of people across Europe including the UK who do. 

[Lionator]

1 hour ago, fox_up_north said:

My main issue with Jimmy Carr is he's far more intelligent than the comedy he delivers, similar to Frankie Boyle, and his delivery is rubbish.

 

Vast majority of his material is nicked and read in jokebook style. Maybe he could mix in things from HIS perspective. From his understanding of the world. 

Funny I think he has actually raised an issue here whether he meant to or not. If he told that ‘joke’ about Jews or Muslims or disabled people, then nobody would laugh, it would be shocking. But the fact that people laughed at something aimed at Roma Gypsy’s show that that group is still seen as bait for these jokes, aka second class citizens. Look around you, people will not say racist things about black and Asian people, but the old tropes about gypsies are still very present.

 

this isn’t the most offensive joke Carr has done, his previous material trivialises rape and sexual assault which is worse imo. 

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

There's a worrying amount of people who genuinely believe that.

Which is why the joke works.

[Jon the Hat]

52 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Funny I think he has actually raised an issue here whether he meant to or not. If he told that ‘joke’ about Jews or Muslims or disabled people, then nobody would laugh, it would be shocking. But the fact that people laughed at something aimed at Roma Gypsy’s show that that group is still seen as bait for these jokes, aka second class citizens. Look around you, people will not say racist things about black and Asian people, but the old tropes about gypsies are still very present.

 

this isn’t the most offensive joke Carr has done, his previous material trivialises rape and sexual assault which is worse imo. 

I feel confident that if you shared the jokes you think do that a lot of people would disagree, as the subject might be that, but the target is not the victims of said offences.

[z-layrex]

19 hours ago, Fox92 said:

I don't think they've ever come out and said Nazi's had "positives" though.

 

Horrible thing to say.

Its a joke? If you find certain comedians offensive don't watch them.

[SpacedX]

I asked someone today what they thought of Jimmy Carr. The response was "a privileged, tax dodging former Shell employee...who is quite funny". I disagree. He's about as funny as the holocaust. Let's be honest here. If you made his joke on twitter and on this forum, if the mods didn't get to you first - then many of the people justifying it on this thread would likely be braying for a lifetime ban alongside the police investigation you'd be facing. You wouldn't be able to argue 'context', "education, it's just a 'joke', or the fact that you're a comic genius, or that people are too easily offended. 

 

The joke was aimed at his fans? As I suggested on the 'absolute cvnts of our time' thread ...(actually, can't be bothered to re-type it, so I'll bring it across) - it is the response from the audience is what I find particularly objectional. This wasn't simply an uncomfortable ripple of nervous laughter or conforming to peer pressure, this was an immediate eruption of s amusement, whistles and whoops - disproportionate, because contrary to the insistence of some, it wasn't even a good joke. The Carr "being clever" or "educating" exemption/get out of jail card is completely mislaid in this case, where the intent was shock value. He prefaced it by basically saying it’s a bad joke and a career ender, almost a disclaimer, the end justification appearing to be that there is a lack of education concerning other groups targeted by the Nazis, which are overlooked. Pertinent point or not, it was executed through the pejorative use of the term gypsy - and that alone is what actually got the laugh. Don't kid yourself - The audience wasn't nudging each other saying "see what Jimmy did there? - what a boy"?  - "he's subtly employing his inimitable, nuanced brand of shock comedy as a formidable tool by which to lever awareness of atrocities committed towards the Roma that wider society remains oblivious too" . Oh bollocks - they laughed at face value at a 'joke' which was simply that the murder of gypsies during the holocaust was a positive. 

 

There's 'black humour', and there's places you just don't go and this is one of them. Under the banner of 'his dark materials' of course the in house audience knew what to expect, That doesn't justify it though, and for Netflix to put out something that is not fit for broadcast it to an unsuspecting audience is questionable. Outrage sells - we know that. Jimmy knows that. 

 

As I said - I did actually laugh. Not at the joke, but at Carr's dreadful 'Monkhouse-esque' delivery and smug self-satisfied demeanour. I hate the cliché that someone has a face you want to punch...but to be fair, he does have a face you want to punch. If it is indeed a career ender, then good - **** off. A formulaic machine engineer comedian that read a book about how to be funny and failed. Perhaps he'll be martyred by Jim Davidson's crowd or he'll appropriate the market recently vacated by Roy Chubby Brown. Because as clever as he thinks his comedy is, the irony being, the current audience that this shallow 'risqué' brand of comedy attracts (I term it Boyle's Law), is really no different to a 1970s working men's club guffawing at Bernard Manning. The upshot is the same.  

 

 

[FoxesDeb]

Can we liken this to porn? Much of that is pretty offensive to women, but if I don't watch it I can't be offended. 

 

Christ there are plenty of misogynistic posts in the main forum which are also offensive to women, but I accept I'm in a massively male dominated environment here so I don't report them. 

 

If you don't want to be offended by a joke made by a comedian who is well known for being offensive, just don't watch him. 

 

[SpacedX]

3 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Can we liken this to porn? Much of that is pretty offensive to women, but if I don't watch it I can't be offended. 

 

Christ there are plenty of misogynistic posts in the main forum which are also offensive to women, but I accept I'm in a massively male dominated environment here so I don't report them. 

 

If you don't want to be offended by a joke made by a comedian who is well known for being offensive, just don't watch him. 

 

I don't - doesn't stop me from being concerned about those that do though.