Is anyone genuinely going to boycott?

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

1 minute ago, K1FOX said:

It’s the ‘Shut up you’re talking nonsense’ part. No answer then?

Yeah, that bit was part of the joke. The whole post was joke.

[K1FOX]

12 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Who said anything about Qatar?

 

I'm talking about the privilege straight people have *worldwide* that they can express their (monogamous) love for another person without the fear that someone, or some government, is going to seek to take their life specifically because of it.

 

NB. though if we are bound and determined to talk about Qatar, that LGBT folks there are subject to legal recourse in cases where straight people are not is privilege for the latter again. Having it be "criminalised, imprisoned or otherwise denigrated" rather than flat out "killed" isn't really the massive step up some folks think it might be.

 

Before I answer this more fully (and believe me, I have some rather strong views on supposedly immutable qualities) I would like an answer to the above question, please. Just to make sure that goalposts aren't being moved and this discussion is in fact happening in good faith.

 

Thanks in advance.

Oh sorry I thought the topic in hand at the moment was Qatar, my mistake.

 

I would say it’s probably because the majority of countries around the world have a majority religion that they follow and have done for 100’s or years. A lot of these religions forbid homosexuality and in many many countries around the world people are stout followers of their religion. Now granted in the western world, in England where we are for example people have become more liberal and hence there’s so much more acceptance of it but in a lot of places around the world people are happy and willing to follow their religion. Again comes back to the same point, if you don’t feel comfortable with another countries laws don’t travel there.

[K1FOX]

4 minutes ago, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

Yeah, that bit was part of the joke. The whole post was joke.

Clearly gone over my head then 

 

Do you or anyone else know how many people have been killed in Qatar btw owing to being Gay?

[K1FOX]

Thoughts on this? 
 

It’s a free for all on Qatar, what about concentrate on our own country? Makes you think is it a deliberate distraction tactic by the mainstream media?

 

 

[Lako42]

2 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

Thoughts on this? 
 

It’s a free for all on Qatar, what about concentrate on our own country? Makes you think is it a deliberate distraction tactic by the mainstream media?

 

 

Why would the mainstream media be distracting from the chaos that is modern Britain when they have been going 'all in' on reporting on the chaos that is modern Britain for bloody ages? 

 

The mainstream media have been hammering the government for years, it's the people who can't be arsed to do anything about it. 

[hejammy]

12 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

Clearly gone over my head then 

 

Do you or anyone else know how many people have been killed in Qatar btw owing to being Gay?

The point is here that in Qatar it is illegal to be LGBTQ+ , however they have stated that if anyone who belongs to the LGBTQ+ community comes to Qatar there is no issue as long as they abide by their rules (no political attire or flags, no open forms of PDA (same goes for straight people too) ) - now some people do not like the fact that the Qatari's have made it illegal to be LGBTQ+ so they think that it is their duty to be outspoken about this and force their opinions on others. Fact is it's their country, similarly in UAE you cannot be a UAE citizen no matter what if you are not a UAE arab by birth, but you can live there if you chose to do so, some rules may be different for you but it's your choice to live there. They have not said that LGBTQ+ are not welcome at all?

 

Now let's talk about the number of other countries that have homosexuality illegal in their country - there are plenty of them about but will anyone talk about those countries? No. This for me stinks of "it's those middle eastern's forcing their way of life on all of us"

 

I get that for the majority of the world it makes no sense in this day and age - however it's their country and they can make whatever rules they like really. Human rights issues are happening all over the world - Russia, lots of countries in Africa, Yemen, Palestine amongst others in the middle east, you could also argue there are human right issues in the USA.

Edited 24 November 2022 by hejammy

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

Oh sorry I thought the topic in hand at the moment was Qatar, my mistake.

 

I would say it’s probably because the majority of countries around the world have a majority religion that they follow and have done for 100’s or years. A lot of these religions forbid homosexuality and in many many countries around the world people are stout followers of their religion. Now granted in the western world, in England where we are for example people have become more liberal and hence there’s so much more acceptance of it but in a lot of places around the world people are happy and willing to follow their religion. Again comes back to the same point, if you don’t feel comfortable with another countries laws don’t travel there.

That's an accurate summation as far as I can tell.

 

And it does rather prove that straight people do have that element of privilege that is rather significant.

 

NB. I've said this before too, but the sooner organised religion becomes a personal matter between a person and their belief and in no way whatsoever state political policy *anywhere*, the sooner our species might actually progress more expeditiously and happily.

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

4 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

It’s a free for all on Qatar, what about concentrate on our own country? Makes you think is it a deliberate distraction tactic by the mainstream media?

No, the focus on Qatar is just because there's a World Cup taking place in Qatar at the moment.

 

And a lot of people (including me) are well aware that there are many problems in other countries, including the UK. And a lot of people try to draw attention to them quite a lot. But not usually in football forum threads about the world cup taking place in Qatar.

 

And of course you don't have to live in a perfect country to criticise another. That argument taken to a logical conclusion would mean that I have no right to say that what the German and Russian governments did to Jewish people in the 1930s was bad because I live in a country where there is also antisemitism.

[when_you're_smiling]

13 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

Thoughts on this? 
 

It’s a free for all on Qatar, what about concentrate on our own country? Makes you think is it a deliberate distraction tactic by the mainstream media?

 

 

🤦‍♂️ I don’t know where you live, but the fact you don’t think these issues are discussed nigh on every day in the UK says a lot. 

[K1FOX]

4 minutes ago, when_you're_smiling said:

🤦‍♂️ I don’t know where you live, but the fact you don’t think these issues are discussed nigh on every day in the UK says a lot. 

In the UK mate, in Leicester in fact. 
 

Sure they’re discussed but is there a witch hunt on those responsible in the same way there is on Qatar? Is the football community coming together to condemn these things? Does MOTD open with a whole section on these issues? Are players being asked to stand up and call out those responsible? Are they asked about it day in day out in the media? 
 

Thing is if this was to happen maybe we’d see action. Instead the whole western world has gone over to promote LGBTQ+ in a country that has no intention of listening. 

Edited 24 November 2022 by K1FOX

[Lcfc098]

If people were as enraged about child hunger and poverty here in the UK as they are about being allowed to show a rainbow in another country, maybe the government might take notice and people wouldn’t be struggling to pay their bills and feed their children.

[K1FOX]

10 minutes ago, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

No, the focus on Qatar is just because there's a World Cup taking place in Qatar at the moment.

 

And a lot of people (including me) are well aware that there are many problems in other countries, including the UK. And a lot of people try to draw attention to them quite a lot. But not usually in football forum threads about the world cup taking place in Qatar.

 

And of course you don't have to live in a perfect country to criticise another. That argument taken to a logical conclusion would mean that I have no right to say that what the German and Russian governments did to Jewish people in the 1930s was bad because I live in a country where there is also antisemitism.

Agreed. However as mentioned before you can’t then pick and choose causes. 
 

Funny you mention anti semitism but what’s going on in that part of the world is a farce. Human rights are being disregarded by the minute, children are being shot by soldiers in the street yet when certain sportspeople have decided to stand up in solidarity with Palestine they’ve been shot down (pardon the pun) quicker than they can begin.

[Lcfc098]

Just now, K1FOX said:

Agreed. However as mentioned before you can’t then pick and choose causes. 
 

Funny you mention anti semitism but what’s going on in that part of the world is a farce. Human rights are being disregarded by the minute, children are being shot by soldiers in the street yet when certain sportspeople have decided to stand up in solidarity with Palestine they’ve been shot down (pardon the pun) quicker than they can begin.

Anti semitism? I don’t want it to sound like a competition but what Israel are doing should be regarded as one of the worst abuses of human rights of all time

[westernpark]

Don’t think I will comment again, but everyone I have spoken to on here has made good comments in debating these issues.

I didn’t intend to come across virtuously when my own country is part of the consumer machine that makes these events possible.

However, I stand by the notion that the biggest debate should be regarding the 6500 workers who have died during the construction of these stadiums. I am confident that in the modern stadium era of building in this country we would not even have 0.1% on the deaths totalled in Qatar, which was the only point I was trying to make. Our complicity in Qatar is a wider debate regarding Capitalism.

LGBTQ laws are not something the football is responsible for, however Qatar should not have bid/bribed their way to hosting it if they didn’t want these laws to have attention. However, apart from the ban on certain symbolic items, it sounds like everyone is doing alright thankfully.

[SpacedX]

3 minutes ago, Lako42 said:

People that genuinely love football shouldn't be boycotting the WC because of Qatar internal policy or beliefs, they should absolutely be boycotting it because it was proven to be corruption and greed that ensured it was there in the 1st place. 

 

FIFA are a disgrace of an organisation and they do absolutely nothing that doesn't line their own pockets despite it being completely at the expense of the game that they govern. 

 

FIFA bring the beautiful game into disrepute and imo the footballing world should be sending the message that they won't take a private organisation destroying the game that they love. 

 

 

FIFA are scum, corruption and greed in governments and large governing bodies is creating a worse world to live in and personally that is enough for me to not give a shit about this WC. 

 

 

To an extent I do agree.

 

When you look at the geography of Qatar, it's astonishing that the Saudis didn't gobble it up years ago. Except then you realise that it was a British Protectorate from 1916  - 1971, that the Emirs are educated in British public schools and Sandhurst, that the UK has historically propped up the country for decades. The military forces commanded by the sovereigns of both nations operate in close adherence under an arms supply arrangement that dates back to 1996. Look no further than 12th Squadron that are patrolling the skies above the stadia throughout the tournament. Military and energy alliances epitomise the Qatari-UK relationship but it has also blossomed thanks to the sewing of political seeds. The relationship has flourished through the planting of multibillion-pound arms contracts, royal friendships, vital gas imports and £40bn of Qatari investment in the UK, all contributing to tendrils and a network that entwines and penetrates into the heart of government - and where have we seen this before?  Since the illegal war waged by Russia in Ukraine, Qatar has become an even more vital element in our energy mix. Something in the region of 40% of the UKs LNG come from Qatar and Boris Johnson asked the emir for more help in late 2021. Talks about securing “sustainable gas supplies” are still ongoing. I'm not entirely convinced that everyone whose vocal outrage at the regime is crystallised through the lens of a football tournament perhaps appreciates the extent of Qatar's influence and holdings on theses shores - that it has extensive strategic investments in the UK in addition to significant stakes and shareholdings in our daily lives. Or that the QIA is a $450bn global investment powerhouse that likely taints your consumer world. As publicly vilified as the Mafia were, there was a time when you couldn't buy an ice cream, go to a nightclub, have a haircut or watch a film in New York City without some of the proceeds lining the pockets of one of the crime families there. 

 

Infantino's infantile speech last weekend claimed that the 6,500 construction worker deaths touted by the media were not all related to the tournament. But if so, isn't that the point? Why does it take a four week football tournament to raise popular awareness of the desperate plight of indentured labour in Qatar? - and with it wider human rights violations and suppression of freedom of expression spanning decades?

 

The 'beautiful game' is now a cynical marriage of convenience between money and football’s power barons, with the fans used as pawns to preserve the myth. We cannot watch the World Cup in Qatar with that same innocence. We know full well how it got there. We know what it says about those involved and those that were exploited to make it possible. But ultimately we will watch, we cannot do otherwise - perhaps in the forlorn belief that the humanity in the beautiful game outweighs the rocky path it has taken. 

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never seen any objection on here to the F1 Grand Prix of Losail. And in terms of this tournament, the buck stops with FIFA - as it did in Russia. Boycott the tournament because of them, the governing body of the sport - not the governments themselves - unless you're prepared to sacrifice an awful lot more than 29 days of football on the TV.

 

You want to boycott the World Cup because of the Qatar rulers? Perhaps also visit the 'have you put your heating on?' thread and say no then spend the next four months clinging to a hot water bottle - or is that equally as meaningless as turning off our TVs and then furtively watching the goal highlights online? Perhaps such ethical dilemmas do begin at home? I dunno, but Qatar influence is way more pervasive in our everyday lives than I think some appreciate and the appalling record on labor rights and LGBTQ+ equality transcend and extend beyond the lens of a one month football tournament.  

[hejammy]

3 minutes ago, westernpark said:

Don’t think I will comment again, but everyone I have spoken to on here has made good comments in debating these issues.

I didn’t intend to come across virtuously when my own country is part of the consumer machine that makes these events possible.

However, I stand by the notion that the biggest debate should be regarding the 6500 workers who have died during the construction of these stadiums. I am confident that in the modern stadium era of building in this country we would not even have 0.1% on the deaths totalled in Qatar, which was the only point I was trying to make. Our complicity in Qatar is a wider debate regarding Capitalism.

LGBTQ laws are not something the football is responsible for, however Qatar should not have bid/bribed their way to hosting it if they didn’t want these laws to have attention. However, apart from the ban on certain symbolic items, it sounds like everyone is doing alright thankfully.

Whilst I agree with the focus on the death of the workers - this has to be taken into context. The official number has not been released (nor will it ever be released most likely) - this number I believe is migrant deaths over all not just due to the construction of the stadiums (I think). Now if we compare it to USA - 2019, the United States saw 5,333 construction worker deaths. The thing is - yes the conditions were more than likely relatively poor compared to the UK etc. However if you have ever been to places like India or some places in Africa - you will realise that it isn't just a problem in Qatar - a lot of the world has this problem and deaths of construction workers in these countries would be no lower than those who lost their lives building those stadiums. It's very sad indeed but they are the facts. It's impossible to compare our way of thinking and working to others across the whole spectrum of the world. 

[westernpark]

21 minutes ago, hejammy said:

Whilst I agree with the focus on the death of the workers - this has to be taken into context. The official number has not been released (nor will it ever be released most likely) - this number I believe is migrant deaths over all not just due to the construction of the stadiums (I think). Now if we compare it to USA - 2019, the United States saw 5,333 construction worker deaths. The thing is - yes the conditions were more than likely relatively poor compared to the UK etc. However if you have ever been to places like India or some places in Africa - you will realise that it isn't just a problem in Qatar - a lot of the world has this problem and deaths of construction workers in these countries would be no lower than those who lost their lives building those stadiums. It's very sad indeed but they are the facts. It's impossible to compare our way of thinking and working to others across the whole spectrum of the world. 

I totally agree regarding context. But then we’re in agreement that this means Fifa shouldn’t have allowed the World Cup to have happened in Qatar, due to these conditions. This figure can’t be excused, FIFA has the blood on their hands, as like you say this is unfortunately the conditions that these countries allow to happen.

US stats are astonishing, think UK was between 30-40 last year.

[hejammy]

1 minute ago, westernpark said:

I totally agree regarding context. But then we’re in agreement that this means Fifa shouldn’t have allowed the World Cup to have happened in Qatar, due to these conditions. This figure can’t be excused, FIFA has the blood on their hands, as like you say this is unfortunately the conditions that these countries allow to happen.

US stats are astonishing, think UK was between 30-40 last year.

I agree that the US stats are crazy, probably a lot to do with the fact that a lot of the workers are from South and Central America due to labour costs. The balance between keeping the world cup in the "elite" countries vs trying to spread football across the world is a balancing act that I do not envy being part of. Ultimately it should be down to FIFA to ensure that not only they give the opportunity to parts of the world where football is not at it's peak but also ensure that then the conditions of workers and how the event is run is done properly. They almost wash their hands once they have given the bid to the winner. 

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

30 minutes ago, Line-X said:

I'm not entirely convinced that everyone whose vocal outrage at the regime is crystallised through the lens of a football tournament perhaps appreciates the extent of Qatar's influence and holdings on theses shores

Well with a bit of luck more will be aware of it because of the football tournament.

 

31 minutes ago, Line-X said:

I've never seen any objection on here to the F1 Grand Prix of Losail.

Well I certainly haven't objected to it, but that's because I have no interest in F1. And because far more people are interested in football than F1 (especially on here!) then of course more attention has been paid and more objection made to the World Cup.

 

34 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Why does it take a four week football tournament to raise popular awareness of the desperate plight of indentured labour in Qatar? - and with it wider human rights violations and suppression of freedom of expression spanning decades?

The answer to that, whatever it is, is the answer to a lot - if not all - of problems in the world, probably including the last question we'll ever ask: 'Why are we still hurtling towards an uninhabitable planet even though everyone knows we are and we don't have to be?'

[Mickyblueeyes]

59 minutes ago, Line-X said:

. Or that the QIA is a $450bn global investment powerhouse that likely taints your consumer world. As publicly vilified as the Mafia were, there was a time when you couldn't buy an ice cream, go to a nightclub, have a haircut or watch a film in New York City without some of the proceeds lining the pockets of one of the crime families there. 

 

 

I read this the other day. Incredible. Someone could boycott the tournament but actually contribute to Qatar just by carrying on with their every day life. 
 

By the way, really well written and informative post. Thank you.

[Lcfc098]

27 minutes ago, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

 

 

Well I certainly haven't objected to it, but that's because I have no interest in F1. And because far more people are interested in football than F1 (especially on here!) then of course more attention has been paid and more objection made to the World Cup.

 

I'm assuming you will be campaigning against Qatar long after the World cup is over then?

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

6 minutes ago, Lcfc098 said:

I'm assuming you will be campaigning against Qatar long after the World cup is over then?

If that question had even the most tenuous connection to the post of mine it replied to, maybe I'd address it!

 

 

Edited 24 November 2022 by Manley Farrington-Brown
Edited to replace the original word 'answer' with the more accurate 'address.' Because 'answer' could be interpreted as 'reply,' and as I did reply, to give the impression - in my reply - that I wasn't going to reply would be ridiculous!

[Lcfc098]

4 minutes ago, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

If that question had even the most tenuous connection to the post of mine it replied to, maybe I'd answer it!

Clearly did have. You said football brought attention to the issue hence why i asked will you continue to campaign against it once the World cup is over as your attention has now been brought to it or is it only for this month you like to talk about it

[SpacedX]

36 minutes ago, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

Well with a bit of luck more will be aware of it because of the football tournament.

I read a rather peculiar article recently applying the same logic to the vilification of brand Beckham being used to promote the country's tourism.

 

Neither FIFA nor Beckham should have gone there in the first place. 

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

1 minute ago, Lcfc098 said:

Clearly did have. You said football brought attention to the issue hence why i asked will you continue to campaign against it once the World cup is over as your attention has now been brought to it or is it only for this month you like to talk about it

Fair enough then, although you framed your question to sound like I was being hypocritical in pointing out that the topicality of the tournament explains the current focus on Qatar.

I will continue to do all I am doing here, which is to criticise things I think are wrong if they come up in conversation.