Is anyone genuinely going to boycott?

[CosbehFox]

27 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

The other thing to note is why hasn’t there been this level of uproar for any other tournament in the past? And will there be the same consistent scrutiny of USA 26 or is that going to be back to normal and enjoy the football. Keep politics out of it?

Well there’s quite obviously a reason for that but Argentina 1978 is the next largest example. 
 

Both British broadcaster considered boycotting because of the political situation there. West Germany and Netherlands threatened to boycott. FIFA were expected to switch it to Brazil. 

[grobyfox1990]

36 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

Get your post and all but he’s an Australian who lives in Qatar. 
 

Western foreign nationals have a different lifestyle to others in Qatar (and plenty of other ME examples). I don’t think that can be denied really. 
 

Funnily enough I know a lad who had to exit the country quick with his partner because they had sex outside of marriage and she was pregnant. They were advised to do two seperate bookings for the flight back to the UK  and enter the airport as though they were individuals. They were concerned that if their employer or the local authorities spotted anything they’d be arrested. His Dad had very good job managing property in Doha 

Good point i did not know he was an Aussie, i assume we are talking about the same poster. I agree that ex-pats lead a very different life. It's like when our broad-spectrum media go into another country and solely interview middle class, libertarians from the capital city of said country to get their viewpoint. And us little Englanders think that's what everyone is said country's viewpoint is, Not true.

 

Terrible about your friend. Lays bare how backward/dangerous these places can be. A ex colleague worked in Saudi. He offered, and intended to take, another offer in Qatar, his CEO made it directly clear he will not be taking that offer for the good of him and his family. All according to him of course

[leicsmac]

50 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

The other thing to note is why hasn’t there been this level of uproar for any other tournament in the past? And will there be the same consistent scrutiny of USA 26 or is that going to be back to normal and enjoy the football. Keep politics out of it?

Speaking personally and depending on how things turn out in the next four years over there, I sincerely hope so.

 

1 hour ago, grobyfox1990 said:

I don't think its the prevailing attitude on this forum, there's been one or two posts and that is no bad thing, diversity of thought is key. It does no one any good by chasing out the Qatari local who used to post on here. I remember the covid thread , absolute cesspit of 'HAVE A YOU A PEER REVIEWED PAPER TO BACK THAT UP!!!' yeh real good way to engage and convince people, confrontation and belittlement... Shouldn't do the same here!

 

Whilst there's no direct translation i think every major religious text indirectly places men above women, at least that's what i was told by a very clever looking man in a tweed jacket few weeks ago.

 

It's great that you are pointing out these things are human rights, not cultural norms, because they are. I hope this momentum continues in highlighting the vast impact we as the UK have on the world with forced labour, emissions dumping and our generally very loose view of human rights when it benefits us via cheap products et al and someone else is dying for them. Methinks it won't....

Diversity of thought in the instance of a matter with consequences down to nature (as opposed to this matter where the consequences are human generated) is much more of a weakness than a strength.

 

What good is a town hall debate when an asteroid is on a collision course? "Don't Look Up" satirised that very accurately. The Covid outbreak was another good example, a lot of people suffered and died unnecessarily because a virus doesn't suffer action based on falsehoods rather than facts about what it can do.

 

Of course diversity of thought is mostly a good thing as it would be a more boring world if we were all alike, but in a few matters, unity of thought and action is a matter of survival.

[Mickyblueeyes]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Speaking personally and depending on how things turn out in the next four years over there, I sincerely hope so.

 

 

You and I both know that the US, despite one of the most damaging decisions to US society to have recently occurred, there just won’t be.  

[shade]

1 hour ago, Mark_w said:

Are you telling me they're trying to overthrow the state, destroy capitalism and bring about a socialist utopia by waving their pretty rainbow flags?

I think they're probably doing it to say, yes we love each other, yes it's ok to love each other (to those who are struggling with the way they feel internally vs. the way they've been educated to view the world) and no we're not going to sit quietly and be discriminated against because of who we love nobody should. I am just guessing, but I think that's a lot more likely.

Possibly not directly, but the underlying ideology is one of destroy capitalism, smash the patriarchy and propagate white guilt.

 

It's naïve or even disingenuous, to not acknowledge that most of these movements have an insidious, trojan horse element to them. Remember, as Greta tells us, there is no back to normal, normal was the system which gave us the climate crisis, a system of colonialism, imperialism, oppression, genocide, of racist, oppressive extractionism.

 

 

Edited 22 November 2022 by shade

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

You and I both know that the US, despite one of the most damaging decisions to US society to have recently occurred, there just won’t be.  

I agree. It's much more of a hope than an expectation.

 

6 minutes ago, shade said:

Possibly not directly, but the underlying ideology is one of destroy capitalism, smash the patriarchy and propagate white guilt.

 

It's naïve or even disingenuous, to not acknowledge that most of these movements have an insidious, trojan horse element to them. Remember, as Greta tells us, there is no back to normal, normal was the system which gave us the climate crisis, a system of colonialism, imperialism, oppression, genocide, of racist, oppressive extractionism.

 

 

"Watermelon" that's green on the outside and red on the inside has been the clarion call for a long time, hasn't it?

 

However, the rather simple empirical fact is that on some matters involving nature the political system trying to sort it out means nothing to it, other than the equally simple sentiment that humanity survives united or dies divided.

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

9 minutes ago, shade said:

Possibly not directly, but the underlying ideology is one of destroy capitalism, smash the patriarchy and propagate white guilt.

This really is a remarkable interpretation of people wearing hats with rainbows on!

 

9 minutes ago, shade said:

It's naïve or even disingenuous, to not acknowledge that most of these movements have an insidious, trojan horse element to them.

No, what's disingenuous - I'd like to say naive, but it's far from that - is to pretend that most of these movements have an insidious trojan horse element to them.

[grobyfox1990]

32 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Speaking personally and depending on how things turn out in the next four years over there, I sincerely hope so.

 

Diversity of thought in the instance of a matter with consequences down to nature (as opposed to this matter where the consequences are human generated) is much more of a weakness than a strength.

 

What good is a town hall debate when an asteroid is on a collision course? "Don't Look Up" satirised that very accurately. The Covid outbreak was another good example, a lot of people suffered and died unnecessarily because a virus doesn't suffer action based on falsehoods rather than facts about what it can do.

 

Of course diversity of thought is mostly a good thing as it would be a more boring world if we were all alike, but in a few matters, unity of thought and action is a matter of survival.

True i should rephrase that. People have diversity of thought, what is key is not belittling, confronting or shutting them down. We saw what happens when you do that re Brexit, people get more entrenched in their views. The covid thread was a brilliant microcosm of society. THIS IS RIGHT AND I KNOW THIS IS RIGHT BECAUSE IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE TO ME AND BECAUSE IT DOESN'T TO YOU, YOU ARE SCUM!!!! Ridiculous attitude from adult human beings. I can only relate to my field, sustainability, you have plenty who don't think it will effect their business, you need to engage with these people not shut them down or call them evil.

 

I think the cure to little England syndrome is everyone working abroad for 1 year+ min and going on an annual holiday to somewhere that isn't a village in France or Italy, a Spanish resort or a f4cking Greek island. We will soon realise not everyone thinks exactly how we do, then have the ability to engage to produce unity of thought, rather than getting scared and calling people names when they think differently. I don't agree with anything K1 Fox says but hope he continues to post. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, grobyfox1990 said:

True i should rephrase that. People have diversity of thought, what is key is not belittling, confronting or shutting them down. We saw what happens when you do that re Brexit, people get more entrenched in their views. The covid thread was a brilliant microcosm of society. THIS IS RIGHT AND I KNOW THIS IS RIGHT BECAUSE IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE TO ME AND BECAUSE IT DOESN'T TO YOU, YOU ARE SCUM!!!! Ridiculous attitude from adult human beings. I can only relate to my field, sustainability, you have plenty who don't think it will effect their business, you need to engage with these people not shut them down or call them evil.

 

I think the cure to little England syndrome is everyone working abroad for 1 year+ min and going on an annual holiday to somewhere that isn't a village in France or Italy, a Spanish resort or a f4cking Greek island. We will soon realise not everyone thinks exactly how we do, then have the ability to engage to produce unity of thought, rather than getting scared and calling people names when they think differently. I don't agree with anything K1 Fox says but hope he continues to post. 

For the first paragraph, I would direct you in the direction of the response that I gave to Finn on this thread a ways back.

 

For the second paragraph, I absolutely agree with the idea that people should travel and seek to know as much as they can about other people and places, as the more we know about each other the more unity we will have where needed, as you say.

[JamieG]

 

Let's be real here....In 6 months time this whole fake outrage thing over human rights in Qatar will all just be a distant memory.

People will move on when the bandwagon rolls into a new station, and Qatar will have just  continued on like nothing ever happened.

 

 

 

 

Edited 22 November 2022 by JamieG

[Mark_w]

34 minutes ago, shade said:

Possibly not directly, but the underlying ideology is one of destroy capitalism, smash the patriarchy and propagate white guilt.

 

It's naïve or even disingenuous, to not acknowledge that most of these movements have an insidious, trojan horse element to them. Remember, as Greta tells us, there is no back to normal, normal was the system which gave us the climate crisis, a system of colonialism, imperialism, oppression, genocide, of racist, oppressive extractionism.

 

And what do you think this new system that the Pride movement supposedly wants to instil looks like? What is it you’re afraid of?

 

The suggestion that the Pride movement is part of and exclusive to an ideological far-left crusade is akin to the people who smeared black people fighting for their civil rights as communists to try and belittle and diminish their fundamentally virtuous cause. People who support Pride almost universally don’t want to infringe on your liberty or alter your way of life. They just want LGBTQ+ people to receive the same respect and rights that everybody else does. 
 

What you are doing would be like me looking at the far right, seeing they use the flag of St. George as a symbol,  seeing the English football team do too, and accusing Gareth Southgate and co of being neo-nazis who wants to deport everyone who isn’t white. It’s just ****ing ridiculous.

[grobyfox1990]

30 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

For the first paragraph, I would direct you in the direction of the response that I gave to Finn on this thread a ways back.

 

For the second paragraph, I absolutely agree with the idea that people should travel and seek to know as much as they can about other people and places, as the more we know about each other the more unity we will have where needed, as you say.

No idea who Finn is but that generalisation wasn't aimed at you, the opposite in fact, often see you not throwing a fit when someone disagrees!

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

No idea who Finn is but that generalisation wasn't aimed at you, the opposite in fact, often see you not throwing a fit when someone disagrees!

I wouldn't go that far. Sometimes I do get acerbically sarcastic.

[kingkisnorbo]

2 hours ago, K1FOX said:

The other thing to note is why hasn’t there been this level of uproar for any other tournament in the past? And will there be the same consistent scrutiny of USA 26 or is that going to be back to normal and enjoy the football. Keep politics out of it?

What would the scrutiny of the US be out of interest? 

[Mickyblueeyes]

30 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I agree. It's much more of a hope than an expectation.

 

 

Which is unfair and wrong. Say something is wrong, by all means but the energy here should be as intense when the US host. Otherwise its hypocritical.

 

Let's be honest, the decision in the US was one of the most ridiculously backward steps we have seen this century. If Putin or Kim Jung Un had overseen that decision, we wouldve been calling them all sorts. But there wont be and to me that is double standards. 

 

The arab world had the brutality of wahabism enforced upon them by a regime who had the support of the British - because it suited the British. The idea that those principles and ideologies just go away because someone said so is naïve. The US example is great for that. The US seen as "one of us" risk their citizens being taken back to the 19th century because of principles and ideologies passed down after generations. Again, expecting that societal change overnight is naïve. 

 

I mean, in this country we still dont have complete equality in the pay differences between men and women - we are trying to fix that but we are not there yet. Ask a woman who takes maternity leave or one who suffers (very much silently) menopause if they feel discriminated against - again, we are trying to fix that. There are many Qatari's/Arabs who are trying to change their society flaws too. Dubai wasnt Dubai as it is now just 10 years ago - there was great reluctance there too. People engaged, its now far more accommodating then it was 10 years ago. 

 

We are country where our vulnerable and our elderly will have to choose between heating and eating for what seems like the foreseeable future. We are a country that actively supports and maintains child labour. We are country where a supermarket can increase profits to the disadvantage of the public and farmers. We are a country where our politicians sometimes get away with murder. We have a lot of faults but we are actively trying to remedy that. Not a quick fix. But the Arab world is trying to do that too - 30 years ago, even the idea of a LGBTQ person entering Qatar would've been a different story - one where real objection would've been seriously warranted. 

 

Has Qatar (and Saudi, UAE for that matter) changed many aspects since just the 90s - yes. Is the average Qatari running after anyone with a rainbow flag in the streets with his pet lion on a leash and a sword in his other hand - no. Has the law around the issue been enforced recently - not really. Are there people in that region openly gay (not saying they dont face prejudices from society but that certainly happens here) yes. Dubai is a great place for the community. Has anyone been denied entry - no ? Is the law equal in terms of those within the community and those outside of it ? Well yes - I cant go to Qatar and snog my wife in the centre of town because society doesn't accept it. In the same way, the death penalty (if ever enforced) is applicable to non-married heterosexuals as it is to homosexuals. However, is a world tournament which invites people of very different backgrounds, races, beliefs etc. a better way to encourage education, cohesion and acceptance then Barry in Barnsley sat behind a computer (never been to the middle east) telling people how great he is and how bad they are ? Of course it is. 

 

By acting in this way, given that the last world cup was held in a country led by a vicious psychopath all its doing is alienating the Arab world. And rightly so, they are reacting in a way to say, fix your own problems, feed your own people first. There are some excellent muslim thinkers in the Arab world - many on this forum would be incredibly impressed with their opinions but you can only understand that if they engaged. These thinkers will develop that region as the great thinkers here will do the same - 

 

But at the moment, Joe Lycett who makes a threat to shred £10,000 then retracts that threat to make a point. Despite the fact that Joe himself has been to and perform in Dubai, Abu Dhabi and, wait for it....Doha is considered a greater voice despite his actions quite clearly having some aspects of public promotion. 

 

We had a world cup in South Korea in 2002 - has anyone seen their current LGBTQ laws ? Better than 2002 but still not perfect but certainly not great - if you're Qatari you would ask where was the fire then just 20 years ago. LGBTQ was classified as "Harmful" right until 2003 - those changes in perception/society didnt occur until after the world cup. 

 

What I am saying is, this is sport. The Russia world cup, the USA world cup hell other tournaments like the Beijing Olympics deserved the same fire but it wont/didnt get it. Even if England get to host a tournament, why shouldnt the Bangladeshi's call us child abusers for the working conditions our businesses force their children into ? 

 

If we are going to make sport political (and discrimination of any person is political) then its got to be equal - at the moment, from where I am sitting I cant see that it is. Which is sad. Instead, the WC will cause further divisions within a region already alienated. That cant be good. 

 

Instead of understanding I am criticism, judgement insults and in part racism - is the highlight of the prejudices of one group justifiable to then prejudice against another - I dont think it is. And people can tell me, it FIFA to an extent ok but surely if it was FIFA we would've been as critical of the last and future world cup hosts ? We werent. What I am saying is, the Qatari's (the average guy/girl on the street) have invited part of this on themselves, criticise what you think they are doing wrong but give them a chance to also tell there story - to date we really havent and I dont think that's fair. 

 

Sorry for the rant. 

 

 

[shade]

1 hour ago, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

This really is a remarkable interpretation of people wearing hats with rainbows on!

 

No, what's disingenuous - I'd like to say naive, but it's far from that - is to pretend that most of these movements have an insidious trojan horse element to them.

 

22 minutes ago, Mark_w said:

 

And what do you think this new system that the Pride movement supposedly wants to instil looks like? What is it you’re afraid of?

 

The suggestion that the Pride movement is part of and exclusive to an ideological far-left crusade is akin to the people who smeared black people fighting for their civil rights as communists to try and belittle and diminish their fundamentally virtuous cause. People who support Pride almost universally don’t want to infringe on your liberty or alter your way of life. They just want LGBTQ+ people to receive the same respect and rights that everybody else does. 
 

What you are doing would be like me looking at the far right, seeing they use the flag of St. George as a symbol,  seeing the English football team do too, and accusing Gareth Southgate and co of being neo-nazis who wants to deport everyone who isn’t white. It’s just ****ing ridiculous.

If only it was wearing hats with rainbows on, fine, but it's far more than that. It's tearing down statues, defunding police, shutting down dissenting views, undermining the nuclear family, deracinating society. It's drag queen story hours, it's 99 genders, it's use my pronouns or it's a hate crime. It's let children that are too young to understand the construct choose their gender without input from parents.

 

It's the complete degradation of traditional society, while people that want to appear virtuous (without doing the work necessary to earn) clap and cheer in the name of progressivism. 

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, shade said:

 

If only it was wearing hats with rainbows on, fine, but it's far more than that. It's tearing down statues, defunding police, shutting down dissenting views, undermining the nuclear family, deracinating society. It's drag queen story hours, it's 99 genders, it's use my pronouns or it's a hate crime. It's let children that are too young to understand the construct choose their gender without input from parents.

 

It's the complete degradation of traditional society, while people that want to appear virtuous (without doing the work necessary to earn) clap and cheer in the name of progressivism. 

I wonder what parts of "traditional society" are worth keeping to anyone apart from the one demographic it heavily, heavily favoured above all others, then.

 

NB. Even if the above merited the worry it seems to generate here, show me an instance where five straight people were shot dead just for being straight, as happened inversely yesterday.

Edited 22 November 2022 by leicsmac

[kingkisnorbo]

8 minutes ago, shade said:

 

If only it was wearing hats with rainbows on, fine, but it's far more than that. It's tearing down statues, defunding police, shutting down dissenting views, undermining the nuclear family, deracinating society. It's drag queen story hours, it's 99 genders, it's use my pronouns or it's a hate crime. It's let children that are too young to understand the construct choose their gender without input from parents.

 

It's the complete degradation of traditional society, while people that want to appear virtuous (without doing the work necessary to earn) clap and cheer in the name of progressivism. 

Could you expand on this please.

[Lako42]

1 minute ago, kingkisnorbo said:

Could you expand on this please.

Probably not 

[K1FOX]

1 hour ago, grobyfox1990 said:

True i should rephrase that. People have diversity of thought, what is key is not belittling, confronting or shutting them down. We saw what happens when you do that re Brexit, people get more entrenched in their views. The covid thread was a brilliant microcosm of society. THIS IS RIGHT AND I KNOW THIS IS RIGHT BECAUSE IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE TO ME AND BECAUSE IT DOESN'T TO YOU, YOU ARE SCUM!!!! Ridiculous attitude from adult human beings. I can only relate to my field, sustainability, you have plenty who don't think it will effect their business, you need to engage with these people not shut them down or call them evil.

 

I think the cure to little England syndrome is everyone working abroad for 1 year+ min and going on an annual holiday to somewhere that isn't a village in France or Italy, a Spanish resort or a f4cking Greek island. We will soon realise not everyone thinks exactly how we do, then have the ability to engage to produce unity of thought, rather than getting scared and calling people names when they think differently. I don't agree with anything K1 Fox says but hope he continues to post. 

Don’t know what to make of that. Pretty simple for me. Make sure your own house is in order before you take the moral high ground over another country, another religion and another culture. People out there are having a great time so what’s the issue of those sitting at home guided by the mainstream media?

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

8 minutes ago, shade said:

 

If only it was wearing hats with rainbows on, fine, but it's far more than that. It's tearing down statues, defunding police, shutting down dissenting views, undermining the nuclear family, deracinating society. It's drag queen story hours, it's 99 genders, it's use my pronouns or it's a hate crime. It's let children that are too young to understand the construct choose their gender without input from parents.

 

It's the complete degradation of traditional society, while people that want to appear virtuous (without doing the work necessary to earn) clap and cheer in the name of progressivism. 

You sound very scared of change, and I can empathise with that.

It's ok though. What it actually is is a few people wanting a more tolerant and inclusive society. Nobody's wishing you any harm, and the aim is to make some people's life a little better, while not making your life (or indeed mine) any worse. Sounds okay, yes?

[grobyfox1990]

11 minutes ago, kingkisnorbo said:

What would the scrutiny of the US be out of interest? 

5 or 6 got shot dead there for being gay the other day... Off the top of my head scrutiny would be on actually repealing the right for a women to have an abortion, still can't believe i'm typing that, if this happened in a Muslim majority country there'd be outrage here.

 

also gun laws and mass shootings, huge racial disparities, emissions, cheap migrant labour, dubya going into the middle east and being responsible for 100k's of needless deaths.

[shade]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I wonder what parts of "traditional society" are worth keeping to anyone apart from the one demographic it heavily, heavily favoured above all others, then.

Everything around you that you see was built on the back of "traditional society", I don't think it should be so casually denigrated, but that's a personal opinion.

 

8 minutes ago, kingkisnorbo said:

Could you expand on this please.

Sure, people like the appearance of virtue more than they like the work that earns true virtue. It's essentially narcissistic posturing, posting a black square, changing a profile picture to a Ukraine flag, wearing an armband, it's empty platitudes engaged in to make the person feel better about themselves.

 

7 minutes ago, Manley Farrington-Brown said:

You sound very scared of change, and I can empathise with that.

It's ok though. What it actually is is a few people wanting a more tolerant and inclusive society. Nobody's wishing you any harm, and the aim is to make some people's life a little better, while not making your life (or indeed mine) any worse. Sounds okay, yes?

I'm not incredibly progressive to be fair, that's a valid point. We have a pretty inclusive and tolerant society as it is, I feel.

[Mickyblueeyes]

25 minutes ago, kingkisnorbo said:

What would the scrutiny of the US be out of interest? 

Many things but I’d say for me Roe v Wade remains a massive problem. 

[grobyfox1990]

9 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

Don’t know what to make of that. Pretty simple for me. Make sure your own house is in order before you take the moral high ground over another country, another religion and another culture. People out there are having a great time so what’s the issue of those sitting at home guided by the mainstream media?

Haha yeh quite a confusing statement from me tbf. I agree with you on your main point, we absolutely need to sort our house out, and i honestly think part of this backlash against Qatar is to deflect our people from the serious breakdown of society we are facing this winter. We are facing a huge and prolonged drop in living standards, and hundreds maybe thousands of avoidable deaths in our own backyard but are concentrating on someones rainbow bucket hat not being allowed into a stadium in Qatar this morning......

 

People are defo having a great time in Qatar and most people on here never have and never will set foot in the middle east so have no idea of reality. But you'll also have plenty (trust me ive met them...) people in the UK who can't understand why heating bill and petrol price increases will affect people, why working people are going hungry, why foodbank usage is increasing, why people can't afford to clothe their kids etc etc and that if you are suffering this winter it's all your fault for not being responsible. Doesn't hide the issue though.