Also in the News - Part 2

[The Doctor]

11 minutes ago, Daggers said:

He did what he needed to do in order to drag the party back to normality, making it electable, and somehow this makes him untrustworthy and incompetent? Erm, ok. 

I mean if lying to get elected and advocating for violations of the Geneva convention is normality maybe normality is bad

[The Doctor]

2 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Honestly couldn't give a flying fvck about how many pledges he breaks to self-important Labour members (and I say that as one of them) as long as he gets in with a whacking great majority and starts changing the lives of the poor folk across this country who desperately need their help.

Problem is he's given no indication that he actually will given he keeps backtracking on any policy that actually would do so out of fear of being called woke by the daily ****ing mail. 

 

Like, not convinced a guy who's policy positions has lead to the name "Sir Kid Starver" is gonna make significant change to the current state of things

[Daggers]

2 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

I mean if lying to get elected and advocating for violations of the Geneva convention is normality maybe normality is bad

You are cleverer than that. Do better.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

I mean if lying to get elected and advocating for violations of the Geneva convention is normality maybe normality is bad

Right, but every way to change that in short order ("breaking the wheel") usually ends up being worse than what came before.

 

It's certainly a dilemma.

[bovril]

9 minutes ago, Daggers said:

You are cleverer than that. Do better.

According to the papers he said this morning Israel has the right to withhold water and power supplies although I haven't heard the actual interview.

 

I guess that's what the Doctor is referring to. 

[Voll Blau]

11 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Problem is he's given no indication that he actually will given he keeps backtracking on any policy that actually would do so out of fear of being called woke by the daily ****ing mail. 

 

Like, not convinced a guy who's policy positions has lead to the name "Sir Kid Starver" is gonna make significant change to the current state of things

By who though, a few divs on Twitter? That's the first time I've ever seen that nickname. If The Trussell Trust start calling him that then I'll reconsider my opinion on the bloke.

 

Again, I don't mind him backtracking on policy right now if it means a few more Tories in swing seats change their votes. Let's worry about how he does if he actually starts backtracking from policies when he has the power to enact them from Downing Street.

[Tommy G]

1 minute ago, Voll Blau said:

By who though, a few divs on Twitter? That's the first time I've ever seen that nickname. If The Trussell Trust start calling him that then I'll reconsider my opinion on the bloke.

 

Again, I don't mind him backtracking on policy right now if it means a few more Tories in swing seats change their votes. Let's worry about how he does if he actually starts backtracking from policies when he has the power to enact them from Downing Street.

Don't think he will get the opportunity, Tories have left a gaping open goal and all Labour need to do is score a tap in, I just don't think he's got it in him to get it over the line.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Tommy G said:

Don't think he will get the opportunity, Tories have left a gaping open goal and all Labour need to do is score a tap in, I just don't think he's got it in him to get it over the line.

If the Conservatives can really overcome a 17-point poll deficit (that has remained at least around that for over a year) in the next year and a bit, then fair play to them. Can imagine it would take some pretty radical circumstances for it to happen, though.

[StanSP]

37 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Good grief, Andrew Tate actually said something sensible and vaguely agreeable.

'peace is always worth a conversation' 

 

Unless it's a female rejecting his advances or one of his acquaintances' advances... 

[Dunge]

13 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

By who though, a few divs on Twitter? That's the first time I've ever seen that nickname. If The Trussell Trust start calling him that then I'll reconsider my opinion on the bloke.

 

Again, I don't mind him backtracking on policy right now if it means a few more Tories in swing seats change their votes. Let's worry about how he does if he actually starts backtracking from policies when he has the power to enact them from Downing Street.

I’ve seen it, but only from people who are upset that he isn’t left wing enough. The voters around the centre that he’s trying to win don’t care. And the ones on the hard right probably wish he’d commit to it.

[The Doctor]

59 minutes ago, Daggers said:

You are cleverer than that. Do better.

Starmer on LBC this morning: "Israel has the right to withhold power and water from Gaza".

 

Geneva convention IV On Civilians 1949: "Article 33 - Individual responsibility, collective penalties, pillage, reprisals

No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

 

Pillage is prohibited.

 

Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited."

 

Withholding power and water from a nation is a collective penalty and is a war crime.

 

If the only way to be electable is to claim nations have a right to commit war crimes if they really want to, then democracy is long past dead and it's time to stop trying to prop it up 

[st albans fox]

3 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Starmer on LBC this morning: "Israel has the right to withhold power and water from Gaza".

 

Geneva convention IV On Civilians 1949: "Article 33 - Individual responsibility, collective penalties, pillage, reprisals

No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

 

Pillage is prohibited.

 

Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited."

 

Withholding power and water from a nation is a collective penalty and is a war crime.

 

If the only way to be electable is to claim nations have a right to commit war crimes if they really want to, then democracy is long past dead and it's time to stop trying to prop it up 

I predict that water will be restored when women, children and foreign hostages are released. hopefully won't take too long as qatar are on it.  keeping the power on at hospitals is going to be tricky to sort.

[The Doctor]

50 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

By who though, a few divs on Twitter? That's the first time I've ever seen that nickname. If The Trussell Trust start calling him that then I'll reconsider my opinion on the bloke.

 

Again, I don't mind him backtracking on policy right now if it means a few more Tories in swing seats change their votes. Let's worry about how he does if he actually starts backtracking from policies when he has the power to enact them from Downing Street.

Started on twitter, ended up on newsnight, GMB, in the independent and the big issue, including from a former labour mayor (Jamie Driscoll). Where it started isn't really a concern mind, "thatcher thatcher milk snatcher" wasn't a more valid label because the internet didn't exist yet. The guy laid out a commitment to maintain the 2 child cap and so keep thousands of kids in food poverty. He's backtracked on every single left of centre policy at the moment it gets the slightest push back in the press and kept to the right wing ones because the pushback isn't coming from media barons. 

 

Frankly, if someone tells you who they are, believe them, and Starmer has repeatedly told us he's a spineless red tory, and as a lifelong labour voter in a constituency that went blue for the first time in 2019, he's not getting my vote. That'll go greens/WEP if they stand, no vote if they don't 

[SecretPro]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

I predict that water will be restored when women, children and foreign hostages are released. hopefully won't take too long as qatar are on it.  keeping the power on at hospitals is going to be tricky to sort.

Still a war crime, rather than a bargaining chip.

[Lionator]

54 minutes ago, Tommy G said:

Don't think he will get the opportunity, Tories have left a gaping open goal and all Labour need to do is score a tap in, I just don't think he's got it in him to get it over the line.

He doesn't even need to score the tap in, as the Tories will just do a Jamie Pollock and score the own goal for him.

 

 

I half shared your view but after the two conferences, there is zero chance that Labour don't win the next election, the only factor to be determined is how big their majority will be. 

[st albans fox]

1 minute ago, SecretPro said:

Still a war crime, rather than a bargaining chip.

i guess so - but i'd argue if the water being off for a day or two leads to the release of those hostages then some will justify it.  

 

hopefully you get to read this before its all deleted!

[Lionator]

3 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Started on twitter, ended up on newsnight, GMB, in the independent and the big issue, including from a former labour mayor (Jamie Driscoll). Where it started isn't really a concern mind, "thatcher thatcher milk snatcher" wasn't a more valid label because the internet didn't exist yet. The guy laid out a commitment to maintain the 2 child cap and so keep thousands of kids in food poverty. He's backtracked on every single left of centre policy at the moment it gets the slightest push back in the press and kept to the right wing ones because the pushback isn't coming from media barons. 

 

Frankly, if someone tells you who they are, believe them, and Starmer has repeatedly told us he's a spineless red tory, and as a lifelong labour voter in a constituency that went blue for the first time in 2019, he's not getting my vote. That'll go greens/WEP if they stand, no vote if they don't 

If Starmer gets through his housing reforms and they're effective, then they'll be more effective at reducing poverty than any other policy I could think of which doesn't involve wild, out of control spending. Honestly voting for the green party, is a vote for the tories in a FPTP system (unless you live in Brighton or Bristol), and their NIMBY and anti-infrastructure policies will only reinforce the social inequality which we're seeing now.  

[HighPeakFox]

England is a highly conservative country with a very Conservative voting base. Much as I hate to say it, the only way Starmer gets a clear majority is if the hugely right wing press decides to tell the significant minority voters to do so. 

 

Most people won't be swayed - dyed in the wool voters know what they'll do, but some people want to be told the winning side so they herd with the majority. Sad but true. 

[bovril]

2 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

England is a highly conservative country with a very Conservative voting base. Much as I hate to say it, the only way Starmer gets a clear majority is if the hugely right wing press decides to tell the significant minority voters to do so. 

 

Most people won't be swayed - dyed in the wool voters know what they'll do, but some people want to be told the winning side so they herd with the majority. Sad but true. 

Polls suggest that Labour are on course for a majority and that England is not a very conservative country, not in terms of attitudes to social issues nor on the economy. 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, bovril said:

Polls suggest that Labour are on course for a majority and that England is not a very conservative country, not in terms of attitudes to social issues nor on the economy. 

I guess such things are very subjective and relative to whatever they are being compared to.

[Tommy Fresh]

23 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Starmer on LBC this morning: "Israel has the right to withhold power and water from Gaza".

 

Geneva convention IV On Civilians 1949: "Article 33 - Individual responsibility, collective penalties, pillage, reprisals

No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.

 

Pillage is prohibited.

 

Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited."

 

Withholding power and water from a nation is a collective penalty and is a war crime.

 

If the only way to be electable is to claim nations have a right to commit war crimes if they really want to, then democracy is long past dead and it's time to stop trying to prop it up 

Followed by “Obviously, everything should be done within international law,"

[The Doctor]

2 minutes ago, Tommy Fresh said:

Followed by “Obviously, everything should be done within international law,"

You can't enact collective punishment within international law though...

[Voll Blau]

19 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

Started on twitter, ended up on newsnight, GMB, in the independent and the big issue, including from a former labour mayor (Jamie Driscoll). Where it started isn't really a concern mind, "thatcher thatcher milk snatcher" wasn't a more valid label because the internet didn't exist yet. The guy laid out a commitment to maintain the 2 child cap and so keep thousands of kids in food poverty. He's backtracked on every single left of centre policy at the moment it gets the slightest push back in the press and kept to the right wing ones because the pushback isn't coming from media barons. 

 

Frankly, if someone tells you who they are, believe them, and Starmer has repeatedly told us he's a spineless red tory, and as a lifelong labour voter in a constituency that went blue for the first time in 2019, he's not getting my vote. That'll go greens/WEP if they stand, no vote if they don't 

Good for you. Enjoy the moral high ground if/when the most morally-bankrupt government in our history remain in power. I'm sure the people who are struggling for cash, food and warmth right now will really thank you for that principled stand.

[Dunge]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I guess such things are very subjective and relative to whatever they are being compared to.

I think there’s an argument that Britain’s natural position in living memory has been centre-right as compared to the world stage, but no more than that. The country is comparatively secular and remember that many European nations have been far more inclined to vote for something described as a “national front” than we have. We tend to be very consistent in our voting choices and political parties almost always need to win over the centre ground to get elected.

It’s one reason why I think PR advocates should be careful what they wish for, but that’s another argument.

[The Doctor]

3 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Good for you. Enjoy the moral high ground if/when the most morally-bankrupt government in our history remain in power. I'm sure the people who are struggling for cash, food and warmth right now will really thank you for that principled stand.

And will they thank you for ensuring that the labour party are committed to things never getting better either? Maybe if labour did some actual opposing rather than "the problem with the Tories evils are that they're not doing it competently", and you could slide a cig paper between the two in terms of policies on benefits, refugees etc then maybe it wouldn't be a choice between two cheeks of the same arse.