We do not have a superior squad to our relegation rivals.

[Clever Fox]

22 minutes ago, BigGibbo said:

If you put this squad down on paper 18 months ago we would be expecting a 7th to 9th place finish.

 

Stop drinking the Rodgers kool-aid.

The problem is we don't play on paper. The players simply haven't performed full stop.

There's various reasons but the biggest reason is recruitment.

We've got to be more professional on and off the pitch.

We've no midfield,no pace, no balance in the team.

The club needs to get back to what we done well a few seasons ago. 

[koop.]

3 hours ago, Number 6 said:

We do though? It's maybe not as good as some make out but the squads at Bournemouth, Southampton, and Everton for instance, are absolutely honking.

This.

 

Our squad is nowhere near as good as it was, but it's definitely good enough to be top half when on tune 

[indierich06]

3 hours ago, SkidsFox said:

We still get posters claiming our squad is better than our rivals. What planet are they on? We have regular first team starters - Amartey, Soumare, Daka, Vardy (sorry not the great player he once was), NDidi (ditto), Ward, Castagne, Mendy who would struggle to be chosen elsewhere. Yes we have the odd star player like Barnes and Maddison, but every Premiership team has at least a couple of good players.

I'm not saying it's totally impossible to avoid relegation, but let's not kid ourselves we have a superior squad.

You look at Forest, Everton, Bournemouth, Southampton - half our squad ****ing strolls into all of those sides. They are total trash. More or less this same squad - minus a couple of players - finished 8th last season.

[coolhandfox]

More than anything after 15\16 City fans should realise it is the sum of the parts, not the parts themselves.

 

We have good individuals but a poor team.

 

If we are to have a chance we need in the last 8 games we need to become a team with a structure and a way of playing.

 

 

 

[MancFox24]

12 minutes ago, indierich06 said:

You look at Forest, Everton, Bournemouth, Southampton - half our squad ****ing strolls into all of those sides. They are total trash. More or less this same squad - minus a couple of players - finished 8th last season.

So by that logic the other half of our squad doesn't stroll into their sides and half of their squads also stroll into ours? 

[indierich06]

14 minutes ago, MancFox24 said:

So by that logic the other half of our squad doesn't stroll into their sides and half of their squads also stroll into ours? 

No, that logic doesn't suggest that 'half of their squads also stroll into ours' - I didn't remotely make that suggestion.

 

Here's what it boils down to - would you swap our squad for Bournemouth's, Everton's, Southampton's, Forest's? I can say that's a very easy, absolutely categorical NO from me.

[dmayne7]

39 minutes ago, Rossiter said:

'Light years' ...not sure about that. Imagine sitting down to write down our first 11. Normally a manager can write it out and the first three or four are certainties, put your mortgage on kind of players. At the moment who can you rely on? Question marks over all of them at the moment imo. Various reasons why. Hope it changes. 

Highlighted this bit as it's exactly my point. You're confusing quality/ability with the current situation. We're down there because we deserve to be and the players have been awful, so on current form, of course you wouldn't pick many if any.

 

But if football were as simplistic as saying everyone plays to the best of their ability every game, we'd be nowhere near where we are. Sadly that's not how it works but maybe the new manager gives them the confidence to get back to where they should be.

[MancFox24]

2 minutes ago, indierich06 said:

No, that logic doesn't suggest that 'half of their squads also stroll into ours' - I didn't remotely make that suggestion.

 

Here's what it boils down to - would you swap our squad for Bournemouth's, Everton's, Southampton's, Forest's? I can say that's a very easy, absolutely categorical NO from me.

From Everton I would take Pickford over Ward/Iverson, Tarkowski over Faes, Coady over Souttar, Onana over KDH, Doucoure or Gueye over Ndidi. Don't think there's much between Mykolenko/Coleman full backs and Castagne/Kristiansen's. 

 

Don't think it's nearly as categorical as you're making out.

[fox_up_north]

Majority of our first XI would walk into squads below 10th and some are sniffing for top 8.

 

Maddison, Youri, Barnes, Soyuncu, Kelechi, Castagne, Ricardo would all be happily taken by other clubs. Even Ndidi, in his dire form, would get into a prem club. 

 

That we haven't got these players firing and doing well is a travesty. 

[MancFox24]

6 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

Majority of our first XI would walk into squads below 10th and some are sniffing for top 8.

 

Maddison, Youri, Barnes, Soyuncu, Kelechi, Castagne, Ricardo would all be happily taken by other clubs. Even Ndidi, in his dire form, would get into a prem club. 

 

That we haven't got these players firing and doing well is a travesty. 

So if they would walk into squads below 10th then they would have also been in a relegation threatened team this year? Maddison and Youri aside, I'm not sure I share your confidence in these players' abilities. Barnes has 1 good game in 4- might be enough to get him a move but the price will put teams off. We were looking for buyers for Kel and Cags in the summer and none came. If ricky, castagne, and ndidi get moves then it will be purely based on performances 2 years ago rather than the last 2 years

[Rossiter]

18 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

Highlighted this bit as it's exactly my point. You're confusing quality/ability with the current situation. We're down there because we deserve to be and the players have been awful, so on current form, of course you wouldn't pick many if any.

 

But if football were as simplistic as saying everyone plays to the best of their ability every game, we'd be nowhere near where we are. Sadly that's not how it works but maybe the new manager gives them the confidence to get back to where they should be.

I get your point. Football is all about opinions. For me, I don't really rate most of our players as top class PL footballers. Mindset and attitude cannot be separated from ability for me, they're one and the same. A good PL player should be 6 or 7 out of 10 most games at least. A lot of sport is played in the mind. I don't always get this excuse about confidence. What does it actually mean in footballing terms? Seems like an excuse half the time. What are they not confident about? 

 

[dmayne7]

2 minutes ago, Rossiter said:

I get your point. Football is all about opinions. For me, I don't really rate most of our players as top class PL footballers. Mindset and attitude cannot be separated from ability for me, they're one and the same. A good PL player should be 6 or 7 out of 10 most games at least. A lot of sport is played in the mind. I don't always get this excuse about confidence. What does it actually mean in footballing terms? Seems like an excuse half the time. What are they not confident about? 

 

They've been coached to death and that shows in their decision making. And they're more nervous about making the right decision or being able to hold onto a lead etc. I played at a terrible standard and that was definitely a thing when it didn't matter, so no matter the mental toughness (and agree that we're lacking in that), players will feel the pressure when the games are so important.

[ParkerPen]

16 minutes ago, MancFox24 said:

So if they would walk into squads below 10th then they would have also been in a relegation threatened team this year? Maddison and Youri aside, I'm not sure I share your confidence in these players' abilities. Barnes has 1 good game in 4- might be enough to get him a move but the price will put teams off. We were looking for buyers for Kel and Cags in the summer and none came. If ricky, castagne, and ndidi get moves then it will be purely based on performances 2 years ago rather than the last 2 years

Barnes gets a ridiculous amount of stick on here

[MancFox24]

6 minutes ago, ParkerPen said:

Barnes gets a ridiculous amount of stick on here

Fair enough, might be being a bit harsh on him because I do like him. I think that goal against Villa was so good and shows the talent he has. I don't expect him to be a world beater every game but the difference between his good games and bad games is massive. I also think you can tell within 10 minutes if he's going to have a good game or not. If someone gets into him early then he seems to go into his shell a bit. 

[Rossiter]

4 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

They've been coached to death and that shows in their decision making. And they're more nervous about making the right decision or being able to hold onto a lead etc. I played at a terrible standard and that was definitely a thing when it didn't matter, so no matter the mental toughness (and agree that we're lacking in that), players will feel the pressure when the games are so important.

Fair point. I agree, they seem to have been over coached but it's difficult to prove that. What I have seen though, with my own eyes, is some poor technique at PL level. I know even the best make mistakes but...KDH miss against Chelsea, VK snatching at shots last Saturday, Iheanacho missing sitters v Soton etc etc etc etc etc. Is it a question of  ability/confidence/over coaching? Could be a mixture. Hopefully the new mgt team can improve things. It shouldn't be too hard to get team selection better after they've studied the videos. 

[volpeazzurro]

7 hours ago, Matt said:

I see two sides to this.

 

I have seen some nonsense wrote about this squad, these players not being good enough - It was only the summer before last how we were universally lauding that we'd got the strongest squad and depth we've ever had. This is the same group of players that were 4th all season, dropping out to 5th two seasons running, who won an FA Cup, a Charity Shield, got to a Europa conference semi-final, a team who we're struggling last season yet still managed to finish 8th.

 

Yes the players get older, yes we do need a rebuild, we have been in decline each year and you might get a drop off but i'm sorry, you don't go from the above, to fighting relegation in the space of one summer.

 

On the other hand i've seen people claiming "We're too good to go down" or "There are 3 worse teams than us"", that is all dangerous mentality to have.

We have also had a manager who in the media was less than ambitious in what he thought our aims and achievements should be. He absolutely mirrored the media expectation that we should almost know our place. People in business that only aim low generally get there. The reality was that if expectations were lowered, then he'd far easily look a better manager than he really is if he did reasonably ok. His lack of ambition or confidence, for me, was mirrored in how he set up his teams and the tactics he employed, seemingly always trying not to lose rather than trying to win.

 

Constant blaming of the players when surely he should accept some of the blame would also begin to wrankle with a few after a while and if you seemingly didn't agree with him, then you wouldn't get a look in. I think after 4yrs he started to honk the place out and standards, interest and ambitions dropped.

 

S and S must have sounded like and represented just more of the same. Slim I know, but there is at least a glimmer of hope now. I do honestly believe that we have the players capable of survival if managed and employed in the right way. 

Edited 11 April 2023 by volpeazzurro

[ParkerPen]

2 minutes ago, MancFox24 said:

Fair enough, might be being a bit harsh on him because I do like him. I think that goal against Villa was so good and shows the talent he has. I don't expect him to be a world beater every game but the difference between his good games and bad games is massive. I also think you can tell within 10 minutes if he's going to have a good game or not. If someone gets into him early then he seems to go into his shell a bit. 

agree on these points, I just thought 1 in 4 good games was harsh.

 

10 goals in 28 league games this season, I want to see more assists but he hasnt been bad if you average it all out. 

[Bob Hazels shorts]

12 minutes ago, ParkerPen said:

Barnes gets a ridiculous amount of stick on here

He's a far better player than we have seen for almost 2 seasons.  Great game against Villa and I for one and many more have recognized that and have commented. 

 

When he has a poor game though, you can't comment he's great 

 

I got the impression he wasnt for Rodgers stopping the ball on the halfway line and passing back and looked frustrated. Smith will hopefully see him different and play the ball in front of him to run on too and take + hopeful pass occasionally !

 

He's going in the summer so every good game makes us safer and him worth more.

[weller54]

4 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

This club has done it (League and FA Cup) in recent memory, but everyone knows we cannot do it again, big 6 have seen to that, so where’s the drive? The hunger? The target?

 

We are stale, we have been in this space for a generation, so mid table pushing for Europe yet falling short, is that enough to inspire given we have tasted better?

Not only have the Big 6 seen to that possibility ever happening again by spending obscene amounts of money (FFP my arse!!)...but the corruption by officials and VAR decisions going in favour of these clubs is just so blatant!!

 

[BigGibbo]

2 hours ago, Clever Fox said:

The problem is we don't play on paper. The players simply haven't performed full stop.

There's various reasons but the biggest reason is recruitment.

We've got to be more professional on and off the pitch.

We've no midfield,no pace, no balance in the team.

The club needs to get back to what we done well a few seasons ago. 

I agree that the recruitment has been sub standard at best and we need to get back to actually scouting players based on what we need, but that is not THE biggest reason world class or even competent Premier League players turn to shite overnight.

 

This exact squad under good management is still top half is what I'm saying.

 

[Hammo]

If we go down it will not be because of the lack of quality of the players. It will be because of the team’s collective lack of ‘heart’, ‘character’, ‘fight’ (call it what you will) - one of many weaknesses Rodgers refused even to acknowledge let alone address (essentially because it is a chronic weakness of his too).

 

If Smith and co can restore some real endeavour and grit to this team, I believe we will be more than halfway towards avoiding relegation.

[honeybradger]

The difference between where we are now and being comfortably out of the relegation zone is Ward starting for the first 26 games this season. Our confidence is shot now but if we didn't have a human sieve playing in net at the start of the season when we were still scoring goals we would not be in this position. The fact that we had a decent goalkeeper on our bench that whole time just highlights Rodger's pure incompetency.

 

If we get relegated it's not because of the players, it's because of our manager and his refusal to correct any mistakes that he's made and also our board for allowing him to get us into this position.

[trooky]

43 minutes ago, honeybradger said:

The difference between where we are now and being comfortably out of the relegation zone is Ward starting for the first 26 games this season. Our confidence is shot now but if we didn't have a human sieve playing in net at the start of the season when we were still scoring goals we would not be in this position. The fact that we had a decent goalkeeper on our bench that whole time just highlights Rodger's pure incompetency.

 

If we get relegated it's not because of the players, it's because of our manager and his refusal to correct any mistakes that he's made and also our board for allowing him to get us into this position.

Agreed Rodgers should never have started Ward, Amartey, Soumare or Vardy regularly and we wouldn't be in this mess. Its like he's tried to prove a point over the lack of transfer activity in the  summer now the club is paying a huge price.

 

 

[BenTheFox]

I think there's a quite simple way of summing this up... Our best players i.e. Maddison, Barnes, Tielemans, are better than anything almost any team in the bottom half can offer. On the flipside, the likes of Amartey, Thomas, Soumare, Vestegaard, Ward etc. are as bad as anything the other bottom clubs can offer. Our squad has a high ceiling but a low floor. 

[Stadt]

The average bottom half squad is light on quality.

 

https://fbref.com/en/squads/33c895d4/Southampton-Stats

https://fbref.com/en/squads/e4a775cb/Nottingham-Forest-Stats

https://fbref.com/en/squads/d3fd31cc/Everton-Stats

 

Lots of dross there. We have a few very shit players like Ward, Amartey and Soumare - these have squads full of them. 

Edited 11 April 2023 by Stadt