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[Daggers]

The standard of teaching and the quality of courses at British universities has fallen off a cliff over the last thirty years. The only establishment to maintain a quality output is the OU, but its fee rises means course value has fallen. My advice to young people would be to enter work and complete a degree by release or distance learning if you have to - there is no longer any value differential in attending full-time, and the additional cost of accommodation kills the entire proposition. This is grounded in the experience of obtaining multiple degrees, higher degrees and certificates. Due to fee rises and poor standards, I do all my study as an autodidact now.

[LCFCJohn]

7 hours ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Ah ok fair enough. I get there are loads of grifter unis out there with about 5 hours contact time a week. But I assumed our top unis were still top given how many foreigners come solely to study 

They are still amongst the top. I work for a Russell Group Uni and they get loads of contact time, personal tutors for all their needs, loads of wrap around support etc. 

 

The issue has obviously come mainly from the drop in overseas students due to the Country having an inhospitable narrative putting people off coming here. In terms of home students, apparently they can’t be given the education for what the fees have been!

 

I do think the Unis need to be smarter with their money. I wonder why they can’t be taught for the previous £9250 or whatever it was a year.

 

But, people who either just say let Unis fold rather than fund, must not realise the economic value they add and the mess some of our towns and cities would be in without them. I live and work in Sheffield and the Unis are the biggest employers directly for a start. But all the associated businesses and industry, not just accommodation but restaurants and bars that rely on it being a student city. If that was gone, the city would fall into the dark ages and it can’t be alone. 

[ozleicester]

University is mostly about keeping kids off of unemployment and sadling them with a debt that means they have no choice but to work...paid slavery

[grobyfox1990]

55 minutes ago, LCFCJohn said:

They are still amongst the top. I work for a Russell Group Uni and they get loads of contact time, personal tutors for all their needs, loads of wrap around support etc. 

 

The issue has obviously come mainly from the drop in overseas students due to the Country having an inhospitable narrative putting people off coming here. In terms of home students, apparently they can’t be given the education for what the fees have been!

 

I do think the Unis need to be smarter with their money. I wonder why they can’t be taught for the previous £9250 or whatever it was a year.

 

But, people who either just say let Unis fold rather than fund, must not realise the economic value they add and the mess some of our towns and cities would be in without them. I live and work in Sheffield and the Unis are the biggest employers directly for a start. But all the associated businesses and industry, not just accommodation but restaurants and bars that rely on it being a student city. If that was gone, the city would fall into the dark ages and it can’t be alone. 

Nice one, good luck to your uni. Not just the teaching but the people you meet were the main thing for me. You see people who haven’t gone to uni using the argument ‘I joined this company as the milkman when I was 18 and now I’m the MD 20 years later.’ That sounds like horrible hell to me. People I met at uni have been the main source for new jobs and clients 

[Otis]

9 hours ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

The last government and the current are working on that right now. 

Are they, in what way?

[Otis]

1 hour ago, ozleicester said:

University is mostly about keeping kids off of unemployment and sadling them with a debt that means they have no choice but to work...paid slavery

There's a element of truth in this.

[Sampson]

There isn’t. You don’t pay back your student loan until you earn over a certain amount. It doesn’t really saddle anyone with a debt that forces them to work as if you never work you don’t pay a penny back, it’s just an income tax masquerading as a loan.

[Muzzy_no7]

Unless they are working in law, medical/scientific research or teaching I very rarely come across someone at work or in life that is employed somewhere relevant to the degree they studied. 
 

Value of university has definitely decreased IMO. 

[davieG]

4 hours ago, Daggers said:

The standard of teaching and the quality of courses at British universities has fallen off a cliff over the last thirty years. The only establishment to maintain a quality output is the OU, but its fee rises means course value has fallen. My advice to young people would be to enter work and complete a degree by release or distance learning if you have to - there is no longer any value differential in attending full-time, and the additional cost of accommodation kills the entire proposition. This is grounded in the experience of obtaining multiple degrees, higher degrees and certificates. Due to fee rises and poor standards, I do all my study as an autodidact now.

I introduced Technical/Engineering Graduate Apprentices at two places I worked at one private and one public about 15 years ago. They either did sandwich courses 6 months work / 6 months uni or 3 days release to uni. When finished after 4/5 years they were debt free and able to move into higher level technician roles. Absolute no brainier for the employee and employer. Of course there was always the risk of them leaving but as I pointed out that applied to all employees who were in high demand roles at that time so all they needed to do was to treat them as valued employees.

[Grebfromgrebland]

1 hour ago, Otis said:

Are they, in what way?

The downward trajectory of living standards isn't going to stop anyone soon. Brexit has ensured that things may never get better. 

 

But that does mean that we're less attractive to many immigrants who wanted to come here previously.

 

Anyone from Europe has just about moved back for a better life. Romanians, Polish etc. Even Ukrainian refugees are nipping back to Ukraine for dental care and medical care.

 

Give it time immigration will slow as long as we carry on pretending all is ok.

Edited 5 November 2024 by Grebfromgrebland

[reporterpenguin]

11 hours ago, Izzy said:

The thought of her getting massively into student debt worries me although @reporterpenguinseems pretty chilled about it 

As others have said, think of it as an extra tax you only pay if, as it should, university has helped you be in a position to earn more. 
 

I got a great education and it’s my circumstances that mean I’m not earning enough to pay it back at this point. Most of my friends from uni are earning a decent wage because of their degrees and are paying something back. 
 

Good luck to your daughter, what’s she hoping to do?

Edited 5 November 2024 by reporterpenguin

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

Unless they are working in law, medical/scientific research or teaching I very rarely come across someone at work or in life that is employed somewhere relevant to the degree they studied. 
 

Value of university has definitely decreased IMO. 

Don't want to come across as one of those boomers claiming they are poor despite being born in the wealthiest time ever to live but...that is your specific situation only. Everyone sitting around me right now in the office has a degree in their relevant field.

PS Law?!!?!? Corporate solicitors are failed arts students from mid-tier unis. Barristers yeh fair enough

[SpacedX]

11 hours ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Ah ok fair enough. I get there are loads of grifter unis out there with about 5 hours contact time a week. But I assumed our top unis were still top given how many foreigners come solely to study 

That is very much a consequence of Higher Education institutions pivoting to the overseas marketplace in order to survive. The numbers have now been curtailed due to changes to the student visas meaning that overseas applicants for postgraduate taught can no longer bring their families. Many 'modern' teaching universities have anticipated change and have been developing the provision of apprenticeships for years. The big Russell Group institutions have maintained their substantial research revenues and plough on. 

 

12 hours ago, UniFox21 said:

I think you're mixing up research output compared to teaching quality and employability. The quality of research in many areas is world leading for sure. 

 

Many of our universities are 'world class', but that number is smaller compared to those which aren't. The actual quality of teaching is not increasing overall. That's not to say we don't have skilled lecturers who excel in teaching, but it's certainly not the norm. 

Actually, many of the 'moderns' are awarded gold standard in the Teaching Excellence Framework, where many Russell Group universities and red-bricks have failed to adapt their mainly transmissive teaching styles. 

 

Unfortunately, since the abandonment of polytechnics an increasing proportion of students today find themselves out of sorts in academia. In order to survive the current revenue crisis current universities are offering places via clearing to applicants with shockingly bad grades. 

[Izzy]

35 minutes ago, reporterpenguin said:

As others have said, think of it as an extra tax you only pay if, as it should, university has helped you be in a position to earn more. 
 

I got a great education and it’s my circumstances that mean I’m not earning enough to pay it back at this point. Most of my friends from uni are earning a decent wage because of their degrees and are paying something back. 
 

Good luck to your daughter, what’s she hoping to do?

Thanks mate,

 

She's hoping to do a degree in either Maths or Economics as it stands. She's also looking at Accountancy too, so something to do with numbers 

 

She also applied for the London School of Economics but I think you need 3 A's at A level for that and she's currently predicted A,A,B atm (I think)

 

But looking at Muzzy No 7 comments above, it sounds like she's wasting her time with a degree in that area.

 

I don't know what to advise her for the best but I keep hearing that Russell Group Uni's are good so I'm hoping a degree at one of those will ultimately be beneficial.

 

Edited 5 November 2024 by Izzy

[grobyfox1990]

11 minutes ago, SpacedX said:

That is very much a consequence of Higher Education institutions pivoting to the overseas marketplace in order to survive. The numbers have now been curtailed due to changes to the student visas meaning that overseas applicants for postgraduate taught can no longer bring their families. Many 'modern' teaching universities have anticipated change and have been developing the provision of apprenticeships for years. The big Russell Group institutions have maintained their substantial research revenues and plough on. 

 

Actually, many of the 'moderns' are awarded gold standard in the Teaching Excellence Framework, where many Russell Group universities and red-bricks have failed to adapt their mainly transmissive teaching styles. 

 

Unfortunately, since the abandonment of polytechnics an increasing proportion of students today find themselves out of sorts in academia. In order to survive the current revenue crisis current universities are offering places via clearing to applicants with shockingly bad grades. 

Yep, saw a CV from someone who has a masters from one of these grifter unis but got DEE in their A-levels LOL. Dude cmon, they're just stealing your money, you are not made for academics which is totally fine

[grobyfox1990]

1 minute ago, Izzy said:

Thanks mate,

 

She's hoping to do a degree in either Maths or Economics as it stands. She's also looking at Accountancy too, so something to do with numbers 

 

She also applied for the London School of Economics but I think you need 3 A's at A level for that and she's currently predicted A,A,B atm (I think)

 

But looking at Muzzy No 7 comments above, it sounds like she's wasting her time with a degree in that area.

 

I don't know what to advise her for the best but I keep hearing that Russell Uni's are good so I'm hoping a degree at one of those will ultimately be beneficial.

She is defo NOT wasting her time IMO 

[Muzzy_no7]

28 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

She is defo NOT wasting her time IMO 

Stay calm obviously a degree in that field is worth its weight 

[grobyfox1990]

2 minutes ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

Stay calm obviously a degree in that field is worth its weight 

The entire future fate of Izzy daughter rests on Muzzy_no7 dictating which courses are worth it or not. This is not a time for calm you masochist !!!

[filbertway]

23 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Yep, saw a CV from someone who has a masters from one of these grifter unis but got DEE in their A-levels LOL. Dude cmon, they're just stealing your money, you are not made for academics which is totally fine

I remember getting  C D E at A level, had good GCSE grades A's, B's and a few C's but just lost interest in the subject material at A Level and ended up going through the motions.

 

Finished them and spent a year doing god awful work in factories for temp agencies.

 

Then applied to Hallam for a Games Development undergrad degree, they didn't offer me that but offered me Animation and programming. Absolutely fell in love with the course and ended up with a 2:1 - felt pretty cheated out of a first as I missed out by 1%. This was because 1 person gave my dissertation 80% and the other marker gave me 40% (which didn't surprise me as he didn't grilled me asking why someone from an animation course was developing a Football Chairman game in Java) The fact that 4 of my 6 modules were programming and only 1 animation didn't appear to be good enough for him

 

Anyway long story short - I got an opportunity with a company in Notts shortly after graduating where I became a junior web developer. The CEO at the company also asked me why I had done so poorly at A Levels and so well at Uni. A combination of working awful jobs and finding something that interested me was the one for me. 

 

I've now been working in Web Development for 12 years and loved it. Had I not been given that opportunity by Sheff Hallam I dread to think how many miserable jobs I'd have had without hitting my potential.

 

If you're judging someone based on their A levels and not what they've managed to achieve since they stopped being 16-18, then that's incredibly short-sighted.

[Sampson]

36 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Thanks mate,

 

She's hoping to do a degree in either Maths or Economics as it stands. She's also looking at Accountancy too, so something to do with numbers 

 

She also applied for the London School of Economics but I think you need 3 A's at A level for that and she's currently predicted A,A,B atm (I think)

 

But looking at Muzzy No 7 comments above, it sounds like she's wasting her time with a degree in that area.

 

I don't know what to advise her for the best but I keep hearing that Russell Group Uni's are good so I'm hoping a degree at one of those will ultimately be beneficial.

 

Yeah don’t listen to the naysayers, encourage her to go for it for sure.
 

Plus, let’s face it, people often poo poo the soft benefits of university as being wish washy nonsense, but as a parent you just want to see your children happy. Having a secure income can be a part of that but it’s only really a small part as a parent (and let’s be honest, with technology development there’s very few jobs we know will still be viable jobs in 20-30 years time).
 

Plenty who go to university even if they don’t “use their degree” for work still find it helps them become independent as a young adult, make friends, interact with people and ideas they wouldn’t have otherwise etc. Plus let’s be honest, it’s can be hard for young people to move out of home and feel that independence without going to uni these days.

Edited 5 November 2024 by Sampson

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

Not an academic subject by any stretch but I'm a graphic designer and you can't really get a foot on the ladder without a relevant degree, its practically a barrier to entry if you don't have one.

[grobyfox1990]

50 minutes ago, filbertway said:

I remember getting  C D E at A level, had good GCSE grades A's, B's and a few C's but just lost interest in the subject material at A Level and ended up going through the motions.

 

Finished them and spent a year doing god awful work in factories for temp agencies.

 

Then applied to Hallam for a Games Development undergrad degree, they didn't offer me that but offered me Animation and programming. Absolutely fell in love with the course and ended up with a 2:1 - felt pretty cheated out of a first as I missed out by 1%. This was because 1 person gave my dissertation 80% and the other marker gave me 40% (which didn't surprise me as he didn't grilled me asking why someone from an animation course was developing a Football Chairman game in Java) The fact that 4 of my 6 modules were programming and only 1 animation didn't appear to be good enough for him

 

Anyway long story short - I got an opportunity with a company in Notts shortly after graduating where I became a junior web developer. The CEO at the company also asked me why I had done so poorly at A Levels and so well at Uni. A combination of working awful jobs and finding something that interested me was the one for me. 

 

I've now been working in Web Development for 12 years and loved it. Had I not been given that opportunity by Sheff Hallam I dread to think how many miserable jobs I'd have had without hitting my potential.

 

If you're judging someone based on their A levels and not what they've managed to achieve since they stopped being 16-18, then that's incredibly short-sighted.

Fair play, you are a stone cold killer!!! Amazing work.

As I said a bit above, my degree was useful in content for sure, but the professional qualification afterwards were more useful. It was the contacts made that were most important. 

Obvs I am nowhere near good enough to do a Harvard MBA, but I'd gladly pay $200k a year to do one just for the people you meet.

[bmt]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

Thanks mate,

 

She's hoping to do a degree in either Maths or Economics as it stands. She's also looking at Accountancy too, so something to do with numbers 

 

She also applied for the London School of Economics but I think you need 3 A's at A level for that and she's currently predicted A,A,B atm (I think)

 

But looking at Muzzy No 7 comments above, it sounds like she's wasting her time with a degree in that area.

 

I don't know what to advise her for the best but I keep hearing that Russell Group Uni's are good so I'm hoping a degree at one of those will ultimately be beneficial.

 

This is absolutely wild. A degree in Maths (or Econ) from LSE could get her a job for a top company in finance (investment banking, asset management, private equity) and the networking opportunities would be huge. She could genuinely be earning £100k+ a couple of years post uni from doing that lol. 

 

I would advise her to do something quantitative, but not accountancy. If she wants to be an accountant she could easily get a job at a Big 4 auditor with a good quality quantitative degree from a Russell Group uni.

 

EDIT: Also, if she is close to achieving AAA she should speak to her teachers about why they aren't predicting that. I went to a school where they'd slightly inflate your predictions to get you the best offer possible which subsequently acted as a huge incentive to do well. 

Edited 5 November 2024 by bmt

[ajthefox]

2 hours ago, Izzy said:

Thanks mate,

 

She's hoping to do a degree in either Maths or Economics as it stands. She's also looking at Accountancy too, so something to do with numbers 

 

She also applied for the London School of Economics but I think you need 3 A's at A level for that and she's currently predicted A,A,B atm (I think)

 

But looking at Muzzy No 7 comments above, it sounds like she's wasting her time with a degree in that area.

 

I don't know what to advise her for the best but I keep hearing that Russell Group Uni's are good so I'm hoping a degree at one of those will ultimately be beneficial.

 

 

2 hours ago, grobyfox1990 said:

She is defo NOT wasting her time IMO 

I just want to echo this, Izzy.

 

A degree in maths or economics from a good uni is absolutely worth it and she will go places with that behind her.

 

But to reiterate what others have said, student finance is a tax not a debt. I have about 50k worth (Pre fee rises) from studying to be an architect, I won't ever come close to paying it off but it occupies absolutely 0 mental head space. Below my NI and tax is another slightly smaller number on my payslip before my take home, and that's it.

 

My experience is that our school certainly pushed more kids towards uni that it should've, but suggesting you've basically got to be a doctor or a lawyer for it to be worth it are talking out their backside. 

 

Interestingly, I was speaking to a former tutor/head of school on Friday and he was saying that their most lucrative income stream is selling their curriculum to foreign unis who teach it abroad under a 'partnership' and there is a UK uni 'campus' in China, Malaysia etc

Edited 5 November 2024 by ajthefox

[grobyfox1990]

37 minutes ago, bmt said:

This is absolutely wild. A degree in Maths (or Econ) from LSE could get her a job for a top company in finance (investment banking, asset management, private equity) and the networking opportunities would be huge. She could genuinely be earning £100k+ a couple of years post uni from doing that lol. 

 

I would advise her to do something quantitative, but not accountancy. If she wants to be an accountant she could easily get a job at a Big 4 auditor with a good quality quantitative degree from a Russell Group uni.

 

EDIT: Also, if she is close to achieving AAA she should speak to her teachers about why they aren't predicting that. I went to a school where they'd slightly inflate your predictions to get you the best offer possible which subsequently acted as a huge incentive to do well. 

Total comp for a half decent IBD or PE associate is above £100k p.a in year 1 now.