Ruud van Nistelrooy - New Manager - Official

[robski]

2 hours ago, FrankieADZ said:

RVN came into a shit storm, behind the scenes and on the pitch

the bad appointment of Cooper in the first place didnt help, then the shit show behind the scenes where it looks like nothing has been fixed etc doesnt help either

 

think if we had RVN from the start of the season etc we might be in a better spot, and im sure we wouldnt have gone for some of the targets we did in the summer either

hes also not got mads,wilf,Ricky P and Fatawu, all 4 i think would be starting

im not sure if it would change alot,

Don’t think RVN has any management skills and we will be bottom half of championship with him still in charge.

He needs to go asap imo  

[Foxdiamond]

25 minutes ago, robski said:

Don’t think RVN has any management skills and we will be bottom half of championship with him still in charge.

He needs to go asap imo  

I think the nagging issue was the lack of experience over a decent period as main coach/manager. The brief period at Man U was no indication. I wonder if Dyche had been available how many here would have preferred him. Unfortunately everything thing is now looking bleak for the foreseeable.

[FrankieADZ]

34 minutes ago, robski said:

Don’t think RVN has any management skills and we will be bottom half of championship with him still in charge.

He needs to go asap imo  

Skill? like really? and yeah we probably will be bottom half cos the EFL will stop us from buying cos of the charge they want to bring against us, thats not on him thats on the board

i guess you was one of the cooper stay lot

4 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

I think the nagging issue was the lack of experience over a decent period as main coach/manager. The brief period at Man U was no indication. I wonder if Dyche had been available how many here would have preferred him. Unfortunately everything thing is now looking bleak for the foreseeable.

brief period? 

he was Jong PSV(youth)then PSV manager, why do people harp on about experience, that is a load of crap, look at the likes of Iroala at Bournemouth for one

[Foxdiamond]

14 minutes ago, FrankieADZ said:

Skill? like really? and yeah we probably will be bottom half cos the EFL will stop us from buying cos of the charge they want to bring against us, thats not on him thats on the board

i guess you was one of the cooper stay lot

brief period? 

he was Jong PSV(youth)then PSV manager, why do people harp on about experience, that is a load of crap, look at the likes of Iroala at Bournemouth for one

We shall see. One or two exceptions doesn't make the argument invalid or crap as you put it

[Corky]

4 hours ago, RonnieTodger said:

Some serious revisionism about Cooper. Does anyone think we’d have picked up more than 4pts from these games with him in charge?

 

He was blessed with luck. A fully fit squad and being played off the park every week.

 

Southampton and Ipswich both had 10 men, should’ve had a penalty and we somehow limped away with 4pts from those.

The points total from the performances of both managers in imbalanced. I don't think this spell has been as bad as 4 from 8 games, whilst I have no idea how Cooper's games managed 10 points.

 

To be honest, I would have had neither in charge but I think we would be in the same position under Cooper. It was turning before he left.

[Dan]

Cooper really did get out at the right time didn't he. We were every bit as abject. Not convinced by RVN at all but I was convinced by Cooper - very much so that he's shit.

[The Doctor]

3 hours ago, Fox92 said:

Nobody knows, it's all guessing, which is why it's a stupid debate that keeps going on.

 

But if people want to debate and compare managers then at least make the arguments fair. For example people defend Van Nistelrooy's defeats with the club's we've played yet under Cooper we only lost to teams in the top 10 anyway, aside from Man Utd (Fulham, Villa, Arsenal, Forest, Man Utd, Chelsea, Brentford). Cooper did not drop points against relegation rivals and we picked up points against Palace, Everton, Southampton and Ipswich. But under Van Nistelrooy we've played Wolves and Palace at home and lost both games without scoring. 

 

Also people defend Van Nistelrooy with "it's individual mistakes" but we were conceding due to individual mistakes under Cooper too. I lose track of the amount of points we lost under him due to player mistakes (Fulham, Palace, Arsenal and Ipswich all spring to mind).

 

I think our general play, and keeping the ball, is better under Van Nistelrooy but we're still conceding at least 2 a game. Nothing has changed. I see arguments of "he has made us more organised" - where? We're conceding at a ridiculous rate.

 

At the end of the day this squad was never good enough. I said prior to the season that 17th would have been a good season for us. These people who thought a better manager than Cooper would have us mid table were mad. It's a rubbish squad and all stems from above the manager.

the problem is, much as football isn't played on paper, you're unable to account for variance. Under Cooper our xG was 19th in the division, xGA was 19th and our xPts was 20th, while actual goals was 14th, goals against 18th, points was 16th. Cooper was the beneficiary of good variance (not least driven by having a top class keeper available, which Ruud hasn't). Conversely, under RvN our xG is 14th in the division, xGA is 17th and xPts is 17th, however actual goals is 17th, goals against and the form table 19th. The underlying stats have improved, but Ruud has been hit by bad variance and while we out performed our underlying stats under Cooper, we're underperforming them under Ruud, however long term, underperforming gives better prospects than over performing, because you can't keep being the beneficiaries of or victims of variance long term.

[FrankieADZ]

1 hour ago, Foxdiamond said:

We shall see. One or two exceptions doesn't make the argument invalid or crap as you put it

people keep on saying about "experience" in terms of management and players; but sometimes youve just got to take the risk, sort of like with Enzo

he didnt do great at Parma but did well with us

 

 cos you can have all the experience in the world and it still doesnt mean that it makes you better than someone else who has less

think whoever we got it will probably go tits up, cos we are a shambles behind the scenes

 

[Foxmeister]

9 minutes ago, The Doctor said:

the problem is, much as football isn't played on paper, you're unable to account for variance. Under Cooper our xG was 19th in the division, xGA was 19th and our xPts was 20th, while actual goals was 14th, goals against 18th, points was 16th. Cooper was the beneficiary of good variance (not least driven by having a top class keeper available, which Ruud hasn't). Conversely, under RvN our xG is 14th in the division, xGA is 17th and xPts is 17th, however actual goals is 17th, goals against and the form table 19th. The underlying stats have improved, but Ruud has been hit by bad variance and while we out performed our underlying stats under Cooper, we're underperforming them under Ruud, however long term, underperforming gives better prospects than over performing, because you can't keep being the beneficiaries of or victims of variance long term.

xG is as misleading as statistics get, the assumption is that xG will always prevail long term but creating chances can fluctuate as easily as converting them.

[Dickov22]

7 hours ago, Marshall Cockney Fox said:

Sorry I can't absolve the manager of responsibility. He took the gig and likely said at interview that he would use tactical nous and motivational skills to improve that (turd) defence. He hasn't and that's the measure I'm applying to my assessment.

 

Prior, Taggart, Walsh, Elliot, Marshall etc etc. Sometimes it's about how you set them up and motivate them. The whole is greater!!!!

Well he hasn’t had long but you cannot possibly compare any of the above with the current crop of centre halves we have! All streets ahead. Walsh and Elliott in particular. 
 

I would be interested to see how we’d be doing if Enzo had stayed however. Maybe RVN isn’t the right man, but this squad to me just aren’t good enough. Nowhere near. 

Edited 16 January by Dickov22

[Gazza3]

If I were Top I'd offer Dyche an assistant manager/ defensive coach role to help Ruud . Give him a massive bonus if we stay up . Stop conceding is our only chance . 

[The Doctor]

9 minutes ago, Foxmeister said:

xG is as misleading as statistics get, the assumption is that xG will always prevail long term but creating chances can fluctuate as easily as converting them.

nope, your failure to understand it doesn't make it misleading. It's a measure of ongoing performance, it is essentially a quantification of the old adage of "if you keep getting in the right places, the goals will come". Yes, you can stop getting in the right places and then the goals won't come but that's rather besides the point when assessing performances and tactics, no manager is ever saying "guys we need to start creating fewer chances and giving more up"

Edited 16 January by The Doctor

[Harpenden Fox]

I feel you can see that we have a game plan now, and at times play some decent stuff. I'd argue that last night against Palace was about as well as we can play. But they had better strikers, and we have terrible central defenders - all of them.

 

And we can't keep changing managers. We can't afford to paying millions in compensation.  I've accepted that in all likelihood we will go down. I just hope next season we blood the likes of Nelson and Alves, and see if we can build a new team recruiting from the lower leagues and Scandinavia.

[Muzzy_no7]

No doubt in my mind that we’ve been better since Ruud took over but it’s not gonna be enough.

 

The damage was done with the appointment of Pooper and his staff with the summer signings being by and large, poor. 

[Foxdiamond]

19 minutes ago, FrankieADZ said:

people keep on saying about "experience" in terms of management and players; but sometimes youve just got to take the risk, sort of like with Enzo

he didnt do great at Parma but did well with us

 

 cos you can have all the experience in the world and it still doesnt mean that it makes you better than someone else who has less

think whoever we got it will probably go tits up, cos we are a shambles behind the scenes

 

Agree about club in shambolic state

[Hirsty The Blue 94]

Would say there are some real double standards with Cooper and Ruud. If Cooper had lost 6 on the spin, scoring 2 and conceding 16 (2 against our relegation rivals at home without finding the net) his head would be on a spike outside the KP. Ruud seems to be getting the benefit of the doubt because of the ABC; Anyone But Cooper defence.

 

Pointing to the fact that alot of the 10 points Cooper got were lucky, but conveniently forgetting the 1 game we have won under Ruud West Ham could have scored 7 and had the most recorded shots all season, and the draw was a game we were hammered in and scored 2 late goals to equalise, same blueprint as the way Cooper picked up his points.

 

I think only a Moyes type figure gave us a chance of staying in the division but if he wasn't interested then our hands were tied. Arguably we do have a style now, but it's basically copy and paste from Enzo, but with worse players in a better league. The summer killed us in the recruitment, look what Ipswich have done, signed young players and improved beyond us rather than journeyman. 

 

Not convinced at all by Ruud yet, will give him another 5 games to show any improvement, I've accepted we're down, but if we go with a whimper then I'm not sure i trust him with the major overhaul needed for us to have any chance of being a relevant football club again. 

[Mickyblueeyes]

49 minutes ago, Gazza3 said:

If I were Top I'd offer Dyche an assistant manager/ defensive coach role to help Ruud . Give him a massive bonus if we stay up . Stop conceding is our only chance . 

I would use the bonus money to actually buy proper defenders. 

[teblin]

5 minutes ago, Hirsty The Blue 94 said:

Would say there are some real double standards with Cooper and Ruud. If Cooper had lost 6 on the spin, scoring 2 and conceding 16 (2 against our relegation rivals at home without finding the net) his head would be on a spike outside the KP. Ruud seems to be getting the benefit of the doubt because of the ABC; Anyone But Cooper defence.

 

Pointing to the fact that alot of the 10 points Cooper got were lucky, but conveniently forgetting the 1 game we have won under Ruud West Ham could have scored 7 and had the most recorded shots all season, and the draw was a game we were hammered in and scored 2 late goals to equalise, same blueprint as the way Cooper picked up his points.

 

I think only a Moyes type figure gave us a chance of staying in the division but if he wasn't interested then our hands were tied. Arguably we do have a style now, but it's basically copy and paste from Enzo, but with worse players in a better league. The summer killed us in the recruitment, look what Ipswich have done, signed young players and improved beyond us rather than journeyman. 

 

Not convinced at all by Ruud yet, will give him another 5 games to show any improvement, I've accepted we're down, but if we go with a whimper then I'm not sure i trust him with the major overhaul needed for us to have any chance of being a relevant football club again. 

Issue is cooper was a bad appointment and the jury is still out on RVN.

[shiv]

4 minutes ago, Hirsty The Blue 94 said:

Would say there are some real double standards with Cooper and Ruud. If Cooper had lost 6 on the spin, scoring 2 and conceding 16 (2 against our relegation rivals at home without finding the net) his head would be on a spike outside the KP. Ruud seems to be getting the benefit of the doubt because of the ABC; Anyone But Cooper defence.

 

Pointing to the fact that alot of the 10 points Cooper got were lucky, but conveniently forgetting the 1 game we have won under Ruud West Ham could have scored 7 and had the most recorded shots all season, and the draw was a game we were hammered in and scored 2 late goals to equalise, same blueprint as the way Cooper picked up his points.

 

I think only a Moyes type figure gave us a chance of staying in the division but if he wasn't interested then our hands were tied. Arguably we do have a style now, but it's basically copy and paste from Enzo, but with worse players in a better league. The summer killed us in the recruitment, look what Ipswich have done, signed young players and improved beyond us rather than journeyman. 

 

Not convinced at all by Ruud yet, will give him another 5 games to show any improvement, I've accepted we're down, but if we go with a whimper then I'm not sure i trust him with the major overhaul needed for us to have any chance of being a relevant football club again. 

The reason Cooper didn’t get more of a pass is because:

 

-He had an entire pre season to work with the players. 
-He wasted our transfer budget on players that can’t even make the first team.

-He had us playing some of the worst football we’ve ever seen since the Holloway days.

-He largely got lucky in many of the games where we got results, and that luck had run out by the end of his tenure.

[Dahnsouff]

I think Ruud will be fine as a manager as a system seems to be emerging that has promise.

However I am also not sure we have the time to fully bed the system in nor the personnel to battle to survival.

 

Will always still hope mind. 

Edited 16 January by Dahnsouff

[ARM1968]

Pep at his peak couldn’t do anything with this squad. No point blaming RVN for other people’s mistakes. See if he sticks with us in the Championship. 

[Clarkeyblue]

RVN just does appear to have the skills for this fight - get Dyche in asap 

[87fox]

1 hour ago, Hirsty The Blue 94 said:

Would say there are some real double standards with Cooper and Ruud. If Cooper had lost 6 on the spin, scoring 2 and conceding 16 (2 against our relegation rivals at home without finding the net) his head would be on a spike outside the KP. Ruud seems to be getting the benefit of the doubt because of the ABC; Anyone But Cooper defence.

 

Pointing to the fact that alot of the 10 points Cooper got were lucky, but conveniently forgetting the 1 game we have won under Ruud West Ham could have scored 7 and had the most recorded shots all season, and the draw was a game we were hammered in and scored 2 late goals to equalise, same blueprint as the way Cooper picked up his points.

 

I think only a Moyes type figure gave us a chance of staying in the division but if he wasn't interested then our hands were tied. Arguably we do have a style now, but it's basically copy and paste from Enzo, but with worse players in a better league. The summer killed us in the recruitment, look what Ipswich have done, signed young players and improved beyond us rather than journeyman. 

 

Not convinced at all by Ruud yet, will give him another 5 games to show any improvement, I've accepted we're down, but if we go with a whimper then I'm not sure i trust him with the major overhaul needed for us to have any chance of being a relevant football club again. 

5 against our relegation rivals without finding the net (Wolves and Palace)

[Parafox]

2 minutes ago, Clarkeyblue said:

RVN just does appear to have the skills for this fight - get Dyche in asap 

 

Seriously??????

 

(I assume you meant "doesn't").

 

Dyche has been employed and then ditched by so many clubs, I can't imagine he's a great or popular coach with the players or the fans.

[Mickyblueeyes]

The clamour for Dyche and/or Moyes is staggering. They know how to get players to defend. Dyche did well with Burnley. Until he lost his players every season and they dropped. Moyes did ok with West Ham until the quality suffered and they conceded for fun. Moyes couldn’t get John O’Shea who was about 40 to defend well. 
 

Our problem is we do not have enough quality to defend well. No matter who is in charge. Dyche and Moyes are not miracle workers. The current lot can’t do the basics and hold the ****ing line!