General News Thread

[danny.]

17 hours ago, CornwallFox said:

Reform would produce an American style healthcare system. The most expensive system in the world with pretty awful results. 

 

The average insurance payment is more than the average mortgage payment in the US. And then insurers find ways to not pay out so you end up losing your house for calling an ambulance.

You’ve made that up. 

[danny.]

16 hours ago, Lcfcbl said:

Again, I refer to my point of £20 (example fee) to see a GP. I never mentioned private hospitals, that's a wider debate. I don't interact a lot on this forum but read a lot and unfortunately this seems a common theme of trying to shut a person/conversation down by just ignoring a point made and changing the argument.

It’s easier for some people to argue with a straw man than debate you. 
 

16 hours ago, AKCJ said:

Why do you think a flat fee of £20 or £30 would be what it would cost? I'd love for that to be the case. I'm sure we all would. However, it's completely unrealistic.

 

It's more likely to be 10 times that amount. Would you still be happy?

Why don’t you think of it like a prescription? They cost around £10, but the medicine often doesn’t cost £10, it’s a contribution towards the medicine. Some people who can’t afford that don’t pay it. Make more sense?

 

 

15 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

I find it especially weird that so many people in the north, relatively unaffected by immigration, get drawn into this.

You’re in for a real shock if you ever visit Bradford. 

[Dahnsouff]

12 hours ago, Heathrow fox said:

Reading the last few pages you would think using the NHS is totally free.Roughly 5% of average bods income tax goes on funding it.Not enough maybe but the NHS certainly isn’t free.

Indeed but it is free at the point of use, which is a critical difference when you actually require it

[Super_horns]

Shouldn’t the police and other public bodies always be expected to be truthful?

 

I know they aren’t always but will this stop the cover ups .

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czrpvrrrmj2o

Edited 16 September 2025 by Super_horns

[Dahnsouff]

It's simple, if we want Scandinavian or French level public services, then we can have it. It is just a big increase in taxation (for all). 

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, danny. said:

You’ve made that up. 

Given their affinity for the current American model of practically everything, is there a compelling counter reason to suggest it wouldn't end up that way?

[CornwallFox]

.

Edited 16 September 2025 by CornwallFox

[Mickyblueeyes]

 

Stating the obvious but will now be interesting to see how other nations respond. 

[AKCJ]

17 minutes ago, danny. said:

Why don’t you think of it like a prescription? They cost around £10, but the medicine often doesn’t cost £10, it’s a contribution towards the medicine. Some people who can’t afford that don’t pay it. Make more sense?

It's not the point.

 

People always say things like "We'd all pay this small fee for a GP appointment, wouldn't we?"

 

The answer is obviously yes. But the problem is that it wouldn't be a small fee and we all know that so it's a pointless debate.

 

The second the NHS is sold off prices will go through the roof.

[Greg2607]

just for record, I don't actually think Reform would go for a fully Americanised model of healthcare.  There are lots of other viable models out there in Europe that are what you would almost call "Hybrid".   BUT and lots of people have sort of cited this, it does require people to pay more in.   Virtually every healthcare system that performs better than the NHS, has higher levels of funding, whether that's through general taxation or through some form of "insurance". 

 

The UK is kind of stuck generally isn't it. We are absolutely tied in to the ways that the country has done things, but ultimately, we aren't the industrial or economic powerhouse that we used to be.   So something needs to change...

 

I DO think labour are trying to change some of those things.... moving things out of Westminster, trying to set up technical colleges to train the required industries of the future, trying to move towards renewable energy (Nuclear or SMR absolutely needs to be part of that mix) privatising rail, improving the performance of the NHS... 

 

and yet... People are only looking at things at a Macro level and screaming about boats. 

 

I'm pretty confident that the next Government will be a Reform government. Now, clearly, I can't predict the future, but based on their performance for Leicestershire County Council, I suspect they will be a disaster for the country. 

 

I used to think that Labour could run a platform at the next election, that was based on re-joining the EU. There would be a large part of the population that would think that would be a good idea. but I fear that the malice and discontent towards Labour, would mean that the opportunity to rejoin would be lost forever at that point.

 

 

[Kisnorbo fox]

9 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

It's not the point.

 

People always say things like "We'd all pay this small fee for a GP appointment, wouldn't we?"

 

The answer is obviously yes. But the problem is that it wouldn't be a small fee and we all know that so it's a pointless debate.

 

The second the NHS is sold off prices will go through the roof.

You say it’s a pointless debate, however that’s just your opinion. Do you dictate what’s fact and what’s not ?.
It certainly wouldn’t be a small fee if Rachael Theaves was involved in it. Anything logical doesn’t bear thinking about if it involves labour.

However I completely see Danny’s point and think this could work. The issue we have is the hard working individual who goes to work, pays tax, national health and is contributing to propping the country up, gets no better access to Gp or hospital appointments than a lot of the lazy free loaders who don’t work or contribute to society. 

[danny.]

28 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Given their affinity for the current American model of practically everything, is there a compelling counter reason to suggest it wouldn't end up that way?

Because that is just baseless speculation, probably fuelled by preexisting bias on other policies, aka you-made-that-up. The very best healthcare systems in the world/Europe (i.e. Switzerland, Netherlands, Germany) are all insurance based.

 

16 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

It's not the point.

 

People always say things like "We'd all pay this small fee for a GP appointment, wouldn't we?"

 

The answer is obviously yes. But the problem is that it wouldn't be a small fee and we all know that so it's a pointless debate.

 

The second the NHS is sold off prices will go through the roof.

It is the point he was making. Again using the same example, we currently pay small fees for prescriptions, of course we could pay similarly small fees only to see a GP via the NHS. I'm not sure how you can't see this when a current example already exists and is used by everyone.

[danny.]

3 minutes ago, Kisnorbo fox said:

You say it’s a pointless debate, however that’s just your opinion. Do you dictate what’s fact and what’s not ?.
It certainly wouldn’t be a small fee if Rachael Theaves was involved in it. Anything logical doesn’t bear thinking about if it involves labour.

However I completely see Danny’s point and think this could work. The issue we have is the hard working individual who goes to work, pays tax, national health and is contributing to propping the country up, gets no better access to Gp or hospital appointments than a lot of the lazy free loaders who don’t work or contribute to society. 

We could actually all get better experiences and probably access to GPs with a fee system. It would raise funds and also triage people that really don't need to see a GP.

Personally I gave up on even trying to use the NHS for GPs years ago as waiting 4 weeks to see someone for something you need to see someone for the same or next day is already functionally pointless. Which is why I'm in favour of moving to an insurance based system, as friends in France and Germany have massively better experience and outcomes with healthcare issues, either immediate or ongoing.

 

For example, without being too detailed, one friend in Bavaria developed mental health issues and needed help. In the UK you'd get maybe a 6-9 month wait to see a CBT therapist, which for many people will achieve nothing. In Germany she saw a psychotherapist (not a councillor) and have treatment three times a week for two years and was actually fixed. She didn't actually believe me when I explained the UK equivalent as it's so awful in comparison.

 

tl;dr for many people if you want to see a GP or get any effective help you have to pay anyway.

[AKCJ]

3 minutes ago, danny. said:

Because that is just baseless speculation, probably fuelled by preexisting bias on other policies, aka you-made-that-up. The very best healthcare systems in the world/Europe (i.e. Switzerland, Netherlands, Germany) are all insurance based.

 

It is the point he was making. Again using the same example, we currently pay small fees for prescriptions, of course we could pay similarly small fees only to see a GP via the NHS. I'm not sure how you can't see this when a current example already exists and is used by everyone.

But when the NHS isn't funded by the tax payer, it gets funded by appointment/prescription fees that anyone looking to use the service will have to pay.

 

If Farage sells the NHS off and it becomes privatised they can pretty much charge what they like. As I say, Bupa is probably the most well known and established nationwide private health service and they charge around £200 for an appointment.

 

Expecting to pay a small fee for a private health service appointment is just a fantasy. It will not happen and people need to realise this because if Reform get their way and sell the NHS off it will make hundreds of thousands of British people's lives a misery. Either pay ludicrous health insurance fees or pray to god you don't fall ill.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Kisnorbo fox said:

You say it’s a pointless debate, however that’s just your opinion. Do you dictate what’s fact and what’s not ?.
It certainly wouldn’t be a small fee if Rachael Theaves was involved in it. Anything logical doesn’t bear thinking about if it involves labour.

However I completely see Danny’s point and think this could work. The issue we have is the hard working individual who goes to work, pays tax, national health and is contributing to propping the country up, gets no better access to Gp or hospital appointments than a lot of the lazy free loaders who don’t work or contribute to society. 

And therein lies the fundamental difference in worldview that drives a lot of the disagreements today.

 

What defines the measure of a person and how that tallies to if they should be allowed to survive in any kind of comfort. 

 

4 minutes ago, danny. said:

Because that is just baseless speculation, probably fuelled by preexisting bias on other policies, aka you-made-that-up. The very best healthcare systems in the world/Europe (i.e. Switzerland, Netherlands, Germany) are all insurance based.

 

And a lot of advanced Asian nations use a similar insurance based system and are very good, too. 

 

However, I would ask again that given their obvious affinity for American style systems and their dislike of European ones (which is a matter of factual record, not speculation), what makes someone think they would follow the latter and not the former?

[danny.]

Just now, AKCJ said:

But when the NHS isn't funded by the tax payer, it gets funded by appointment/prescription fees that anyone looking to use the service will have to pay.

 

If Farage sells the NHS off and it becomes privatised they can pretty much charge what they like. As I say, Bupa is probably the most well known and established nationwide private health service and they charge around £200 for an appointment.

 

Expecting to pay a small fee for a private health service appointment is just a fantasy. It will not happen and people need to realise this because if Reform get their way and sell the NHS off it will make hundreds of thousands of British people's lives a misery. Either pay ludicrous health insurance fees or pray to god you don't fall ill.

Why have you jumped from the NHS to a hypothetical system where people either pay full price for treatment or an unaffordable system? Switzerland, Netherlands, Germany, France etc. all have better outcomes and quality of care than we do. Feels like you have an agenda other than being objective.

 

And re: selling off the NHS, that started decades ago with PFI and privatisation, and it was under Labour not reform https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1246070/

 

 

Just now, leicsmac said:

And therein lies the fundamental difference in worldview that drives a lot of the disagreements today.

 

What defines the measure of a person and how that tallies to if they should be allowed to survive in any kind of comfort. 

 

And a lot of advanced Asian nations use a similar insurance based system and are very good, too. 

 

However, I would ask again that given their obvious affinity for American style systems and their dislike of European ones (which is a matter of factual record, not speculation), what makes someone think they would follow the latter and not the former?

Do you have any evidence that Reform dislikes European examples of healthcare such as Switzerland et al?

A quick Google tells me (https://fullfact.org/health/reform-nigel-farage-pay-for-nhs-labour/):

- Reform UK: “Our policy is to always keep the NHS free at the point of use.”

- Reform UK’s 2024 election manifesto: “Services will always be free at the point of use.”

- When asked about the possibility of introducing health insurance, Mr Farage said: “If we could get a more efficient, better funding model, provided we give free care at the point of delivery, I’m prepared to consider anything.” Mr Farage was asked if he was open to moving to “a French-style insurance model for the NHS”, to which he replied: “I’m not saying we should absolutely mimic the French system, but let’s have a much deeper, broader thing.” 

[AKCJ]

15 minutes ago, Kisnorbo fox said:

You say it’s a pointless debate, however that’s just your opinion. Do you dictate what’s fact and what’s not ?.
It certainly wouldn’t be a small fee if Rachael Theaves was involved in it. Anything logical doesn’t bear thinking about if it involves labour.

However I completely see Danny’s point and think this could work.

 

The debate on whether we want the NHS to be sold off and privatised is there to be had. Of course it is.

 

What isn't right though is pretending that fees would be small and easily affordable.

 

15 minutes ago, Kisnorbo fox said:

The issue we have is the hard working individual who goes to work, pays tax, national health and is contributing to propping the country up, gets no better access to Gp or hospital appointments than a lot of the lazy free loaders who don’t work or contribute to society. 

I completely agree. The NHS is totally underfunded and is totally mismanaged. It needs to be sorted but we can't lose sight of the fact that it's one of Britain's great strengths and we can't allow it to be sold off.

[StanSP]

13 minutes ago, danny. said:

For example, without being too detailed, one friend in Bavaria developed mental health issues and needed help. In the UK you'd get maybe a 6-9 month wait to see a CBT therapist, which for many people will achieve nothing. In Germany she saw a psychotherapist (not a councillor) and have treatment three times a week for two years and was actually fixed. She didn't actually believe me when I explained the UK equivalent as it's so awful in comparison

In the interests of fairness, I know someone who was in MH crisis, had a breakdown, was seen by a GP on a Monday as the last appt (5.30pm), referred to MH Team to be assessed by the Thursday. Was seen by a specialist by the Friday and was given medication to use for two months. Seen 3 times within those 2 months to monitor the health and the medication dosage. 

End of the two months they were off everything, assessed again and recovered... 

[AKCJ]

2 minutes ago, danny. said:

Why have you jumped from the NHS to a hypothetical system where people either pay full price for treatment or an unaffordable system? Switzerland, Netherlands, Germany, France etc. all have better outcomes and quality of care than we do. Feels like you have an agenda other than being objective.

 

And re: selling off the NHS, that started decades ago with PFI and privatisation, and it was under Labour not reform https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1246070/

 

 

Do you have any evidence that Reform dislikes European examples of healthcare such as Switzerland et al?

A quick Google tells me (https://fullfact.org/health/reform-nigel-farage-pay-for-nhs-labour/):

- Reform UK: “Our policy is to always keep the NHS free at the point of use.”

- Reform UK’s 2024 election manifesto: “Services will always be free at the point of use.”

- When asked about the possibility of introducing health insurance, Mr Farage said: “If we could get a more efficient, better funding model, provided we give free care at the point of delivery, I’m prepared to consider anything.” Mr Farage was asked if he was open to moving to “a French-style insurance model for the NHS”, to which he replied: “I’m not saying we should absolutely mimic the French system, but let’s have a much deeper, broader thing.” 

I suppose it boils down to whether or not you trust the serial liar Nigel Farage.

[Tommy G]

3 minutes ago, danny. said:

Why have you jumped from the NHS to a hypothetical system where people either pay full price for treatment or an unaffordable system? Switzerland, Netherlands, Germany, France etc. all have better outcomes and quality of care than we do. Feels like you have an agenda other than being objective.

 

And re: selling off the NHS, that started decades ago with PFI and privatisation, and it was under Labour not reform https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1246070/

 

 

Do you have any evidence that Reform dislikes European examples of healthcare such as Switzerland et al?

A quick Google tells me (https://fullfact.org/health/reform-nigel-farage-pay-for-nhs-labour/):

- Reform UK: “Our policy is to always keep the NHS free at the point of use.”

- Reform UK’s 2024 election manifesto: “Services will always be free at the point of use.”

- When asked about the possibility of introducing health insurance, Mr Farage said: “If we could get a more efficient, better funding model, provided we give free care at the point of delivery, I’m prepared to consider anything.” Mr Farage was asked if he was open to moving to “a French-style insurance model for the NHS”, to which he replied: “I’m not saying we should absolutely mimic the French system, but let’s have a much deeper, broader thing.” 

He doesn't understand the points being made despite 99% of everyone else understanding it.

[Tommy G]

2 minutes ago, StanSP said:

In the interests of fairness, I know someone who was in MH crisis, had a breakdown, was seen by a GP on a Monday as the last appt (5.30pm), referred to MH Team to be assessed by the Thursday. Was seen by a specialist by the Friday and was given medication to use for two months. Seen 3 times within those 2 months to monitor the health and the medication dosage. 

End of the two months they were off everything, assessed again and recovered... 

They were one of the lucky ones. Glad they are getting the treatment they need. 

[Zear0]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

If you were fed as much fancy rich food as these leaders are fed, you would be craving some simple fast food as well!

Gout is a sign of affluence ill have you know

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, danny. said:

 

Do you have any evidence that Reform dislikes European examples of healthcare such as Switzerland et al?

A quick Google tells me (https://fullfact.org/health/reform-nigel-farage-pay-for-nhs-labour/):

- Reform UK: “Our policy is to always keep the NHS free at the point of use.”

- Reform UK’s 2024 election manifesto: “Services will always be free at the point of use.”

- When asked about the possibility of introducing health insurance, Mr Farage said: “If we could get a more efficient, better funding model, provided we give free care at the point of delivery, I’m prepared to consider anything.” Mr Farage was asked if he was open to moving to “a French-style insurance model for the NHS”, to which he replied: “I’m not saying we should absolutely mimic the French system, but let’s have a much deeper, broader thing.” 

The entire existence of that party is born from the idea of Brexit and antipathy towards the way the rest of Europe does things - if you want me to find specific examples I can do so, but it's a bit like having to prove the Earth is an oblate spheroid.

 

WRT the manifesto promises, it wouldn't be the first time a party has violated those once in power, would it?

 

You could be right and I might be wrong about this, or the other way round, but I honestly don't see the point in taking the chance in the first instance when if we get it wrong so much unnecessary suffering will result. Ditto with the stance of that party on some other issues, too. 

 

The road to hell in history is paved with people saying that things "wouldn't be that bad".

[danny.]

18 minutes ago, StanSP said:

In the interests of fairness, I know someone who was in MH crisis, had a breakdown, was seen by a GP on a Monday as the last appt (5.30pm), referred to MH Team to be assessed by the Thursday. Was seen by a specialist by the Friday and was given medication to use for two months. Seen 3 times within those 2 months to monitor the health and the medication dosage. 

End of the two months they were off everything, assessed again and recovered... 

I’m not sure that was typical based on my own experience and experiences of family members and friends but it’s great to hear and very glad your friend is doing well. 
 

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

The entire existence of that party is born from the idea of Brexit and antipathy towards the way the rest of Europe does things - if you want me to find specific examples I can do so, but it's a bit like having to prove the Earth is an oblate spheroid.

 

WRT the manifesto promises, it wouldn't be the first time a party has violated those once in power, would it?

 

You could be right and I might be wrong about this, or the other way round, but I honestly don't see the point in taking the chance in the first instance when if we get it wrong so much unnecessary suffering will result. Ditto with the stance of that party on some other issues, too. 

 

The road to hell in history is paved with people saying that things "wouldn't be that bad".

it’s not the way “the rest of Europe does things”, healthcare systems are extremely mixed in ideology and implementation throughout Europe. I’d encourage you to do some research on this as it does seem like you’re not very well informed (I don’t mean that as an insult). 
 

Of course politicians lie, I don’t trust any of them. But to a point we have to go on statements and manifestos, otherwise why talk about anything? They might just u-turn on the lot (i.e. many important things Starmer promised) or implement things they have no mandate for (i.e. digital ID). 

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 hour ago, Super_horns said:

Shouldn’t the police and other public bodies always be expected to be truthful?

 

I know they aren’t always but will this stop the cover ups .

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czrpvrrrmj2o

I thought this. If you're covering stuff up, making it illegal is hardly going to stop you.