What grinds my gears...

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, ozleicester said:

No, the danger comes from the rapist.. not the womans situation.

I've got 3 daughters, when they go out I tell them to be careful, not because I think they're wanton sluts who are desperate to be raped but because I worry about them. I don't want them raped full stop, saying it was the rapist's fault would be absolutely no consolation . I rather I didn't happen at all and if that means not making yourself an easy target then so be it.

[ozleicester]

5 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

I one hundred percent agree that rapists are the danger.

 

But a woman with lower inhibitions, and barely control themselves yet alone fight off an attacker, are obviously a soft target for said fvckwit cvnts.

 

If I got hammered tonight, stumble into an alley and get mugged, it's not my fault but there's steps I could have taken to make myself less of a target in that situation.

 

The judge, in my opinion, simply outlined that knowing your limit and showing caution could help prevent the opportunity or at the very worst make an undeniable case in court. 

Stepping outside... puts you at a greater risk

Going out after dark... increases your risk

everything increases your risk.

 

[ozleicester]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I've got 3 daughters, when they go out I tell them to be careful, not because I think they're wanton sluts who are desperate to be raped but because I worry about them. I don't want them raped full stop, saying it was the rapist's fault would be absolutely no consolation . I rather I didn't happen at all and if that means not making yourself an easy target then so be it.

By telling them they are making themselves an easy target... you are telling them they are in some way responsible.

[Webbo]

Just now, ozleicester said:

By telling them they are making themselves an easy target... you are telling them they are in some way responsible.

No I'm not.

[AKCJ]

Ultimately, rapists are to blame for rape. Of course they are. However, there are steps women can take to lower their risks. Surely you can understand that Oz? That's not saying that women are actively looking for it or any of that bollocks, but you need to be responsible for your own well being when out and about because we don't live in a perfect world and there are plenty of opportunist ****heads that will take advantage.

[Finnaldo]

Just now, ozleicester said:

Stepping outside... puts you at a greater risk

Going out after dark... increases your risk

everything increases your risk.

 

 

Come on man you're totally missing the point me & Webbo are making.

 

I don't think they're responsible, clearly neither does Webbo.

 

You can't make rapists and muggers totally disappear but you can take steps to stop yourself being completely incapable of dealing with the situation.

[FoxesDeb]

I know what to do to reduce the risk, should I not bother trying to stay safe because it wouldn't be my fault if something happened to me? There are lots of things we all do every day to reduce risks, a woman taking steps to ensure she is not vulnerable should be no different.

[ozleicester]

2 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

Come on man you're totally missing the point me & Webbo are making.

 

I don't think they're responsible, clearly neither does Webbo.

 

You can't make rapists and muggers totally disappear but you can take steps to stop yourself being completely incapable of dealing with the situation.

Seriously...I am not for one minute suggesting that your or Webbo think  they are responsible. I appreciate that what you are saying is meant and held with the very best intentions.

 

But everyone of those statements reinforces a belief that women are in someway responsible and those women who suffer.. then have to deal with that added suffering that... because they "got drunk.. went out in the dark... wore a short skirt" they have to accept some responsibility.

 

 

[leicsmac]

Difficult topic, this one.

 

The judges comment certainly sounds like there's some victim-blaming in there, but you have to be at least a little pragmatic regarding risk factors. The world we live in is no utopia, and you need to look out for yourself.

 

With that in mind, however, getting people to take adequate steps, while well-meaning, is overlooking and not tackling the problem of why rapists do what they do in the first place. Do we really want to go around with the idea of acceptable risk and therefore fear in that way forever when there is a possibility (however slim) of doing something about it and reducing that risk factor? I don't see much work being done on that score right now.

 

And on a slight tangent, rape seems to be the only 'major' crime where this discussion comes up most of the time rather than in just a few exceptional cases. Might there be a causality there?

[Webbo]

5 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Seriously...I am not for one minute suggesting that your or Webbo think  they are responsible. I appreciate that what you are saying is meant and held with the very best intentions.

 

But everyone of those statements reinforces a belief that women are in someway responsible and those women who suffer.. then have to deal with that added suffering that... because they "got drunk.. went out in the dark... wore a short skirt" they have to accept some responsibility.

 

 

I'm sure your moral high mindedness  will one day eradicate all crime. In the meanwhile I'll tell my daughters not to have too much to drink.

[FoxesDeb]

4 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Seriously...I am not for one minute suggesting that your or Webbo think  they are responsible. I appreciate that what you are saying is meant and held with the very best intentions.

 

But everyone of those statements reinforces a belief that women are in someway responsible and those women who suffer.. then have to deal with that added suffering that... because they "got drunk.. went out in the dark... wore a short skirt" they have to accept some responsibility.

 

 

I never lock my car on my driveway, despite knowing car thieves exist. If it gets stolen, it will be partly my fault. Sometimes I forget to lock my front door at night. If I get burgled it will be partly down to me and my stupidity, I should know better. If I go out tonight and get blind drunk, make a complete show of myself and decide it's a good idea to walk home alone, why shouldn't I share some of the blame if something happens? Maybe I should be able to, but the fact is that these arseholes do exist, so why wouldn't I do everything I can to reduce my risk, and share some responsibility for my own well being?

[Finnaldo]

Just now, ozleicester said:

Seriously...I am not for one minute suggesting that your or Webbo think  they are responsible. I appreciate that what you are saying is meant and held with the very best intentions.

 

But everyone of those statements reinforces a belief that women are in someway responsible and those women who suffer.. then have to deal with that added suffering that... because they "got drunk.. went out in the dark... wore a short skirt" they have to accept some responsibility.

 

 

 

But the thing is I don't just think it's just women. As I said men can be just as vulnerable if they get ridiculously hammered and try and walk home. In fact it happened to my Uncle a few years back. The fact is, male or female, you have to know your limit. The judge made this in reference to a rape case but that was the case in subject but it goes for all crimes on drunk targets.

[ozleicester]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I'm sure your moral high mindedness  will one day eradicate all crime. In the meanwhile I'll tell my daughters not to have too much to drink.

A (what i thought was a) reasonable discussion collapses with with petty personal attacks.

 

[leicsmac]

https://www.the-pool.com/news-views/latest-news/2017/13/cricketer-spared-jail-despite-vicious-attack-on-wife

[ozleicester]

3 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

I never lock my car on my driveway, despite knowing car thieves exist. If it gets stolen, it will be partly my fault. Sometimes I forget to lock my front door at night. If I get burgled it will be partly down to me and my stupidity, I should know better. If I go out tonight and get blind drunk, make a complete show of myself and decide it's a good idea to walk home alone, why shouldn't I share some of the blame if something happens? Maybe I should be able to, but the fact is that these arseholes do exist, so why wouldn't I do everything I can to reduce my risk, and share some responsibility for my own well being?

so to be clear.... if a woman is raped she is in someway responsible?

[ozleicester]

5 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

But the thing is I don't just think it's just women. As I said men can be just as vulnerable if they get ridiculously hammered and try and walk home. In fact it happened to my Uncle a few years back. The fact is, male or female, you have to know your limit. The judge made this in reference to a rape case but that was the case in subject but it goes for all crimes on drunk targets.

again.. to be clear.. if a woman has had a drink and is raped, she is in some way responsible then?

[Webbo]

9 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

A (what i thought was a) reasonable discussion collapses with with petty personal attacks.

 

It wasn't an attack on you, just what you were saying.

[FoxesDeb]

6 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

so to be clear.... if a woman is raped she is in someway responsible?

Obviously it depends on the circumstances, but I believe every time we take risks we should be prepared to take responsibility for the possible outcome. Not all rapes happen in the same circumstances so of course not every woman is in some way responsible. But reducing your vulnerability is common sense, surely?

[Strokes]

53 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

No, the danger comes from the rapist.. not the womans situation.

But the rapist would target the vulnerable, is it not best to try and avoid that?

[ozleicester]

1 minute ago, FoxesDeb said:

Obviously it depends on the circumstances, but I believe every time we take risks we should be prepared to take responsibility for the possible outcome. Not all rapes happen in the same circumstances so of course not every woman is in some way responsible. But reducing your vulnerability is common sense, surely?

But how far must you reduce it... not getting drunk... not going out at night... not leaving your house at all. All of these things increase your risk... but YOU are not responsible, you should be able to do these things... and if women are told that they shouldnt "do that, go there, drink that"... we are placing some responsibility on them.

[ozleicester]

2 minutes ago, Strokes said:

But the rapist would target the vulnerable, is it not best to try and avoid that?

rapes occur in daylight.. in peoples homes, schools, hospitals... etc etc...

 

If a woman is raped at home at midday.. is she less responsible than a woman raped at 2am outside a club?

[Strokes]

Just now, ozleicester said:

rapes occur in daylight.. in peoples homes, schools, hospitals... etc etc...

 

If a woman is raped at home at midday.. is she less responsible than a woman raped at 2am outside a club?

I'm not saying the victim (not always women) is in any way responsible. But that everybody should atleast try to make themselves less vulnerable.

[Finnaldo]

Just now, ozleicester said:

again.. to be clear.. if a woman has had a drink and is raped, she is in some way responsible then?

 

In my mind absolutely not.

 

If she is completely hammered, unaware of her surroundings and wanders off without telling her friends and leaves with some sketchy bloke and is sexually assaulted, it's still not her fault she was sexually assaulted.

 

But would she have wandered off from her friends and left with said bloke had she been within her limits? Would she not at least tell her friends if she was leaving? 

 

It's the same with blokes who go out and say they're fine to walk home rather get a cab, then get jumped. Would they of got jumped if they took a cab?

 

Rape is a sensitive issue and victim blaming is terrible, but we all have our limits and know when too much is too much. Some sexual assaults on drunken women are unavoidable but there are definitely some cases where people have gone out, gone overboard and put themselves in a vulnerable position.

Edited 28 March 2017 by Finnaldo

[leicsmac]

Again, I raise my point from earlier. Rape is the only 'major' crime in which this discussion is widespread, even institutionalised as a regular defence lawyer tactic.

 

Why is that?

[ozleicester]

1 minute ago, Strokes said:

I'm not saying the victim (not always women) is in any way responsible. But that everybody should atleast try to make themselves less vulnerable.

yep, certainly not just women. But the saying people should make themselves less vulnerable still places some responsibilty on the victim.

 

Which especially when stated by a judge after an attack is just making the victim feel guilty.