What grinds my gears...

[AKCJ]

2 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Obviously i dont know the full facts.. or her and her history, so i shouldnt be making a judgement... but as a society we tell women that... they have to" be safe", "stay with friends", "dont get drunk".. "dont walk alone at night".. etc or you might get raped... is reinforcing that stopping rape is up to them.... and therefore if they are raped, they have some responsibility.

Responsible parents should be saying that to their sons as well as their daughters. Everyone should stay safe when out and about because we live in a world full of criminals.

[ozleicester]

1 minute ago, AKCJ said:

I didn't say that taking these steps to avoid being raped are fool proof. No two crimes are the same and neither are two rapes. You can obviously be raped through no fault of your own through brute force or whatever.

 

I know it sounds harsh, but we live in a world full of crime. I don't think it's much to ask that you try and prevent crime as much as possible by being responsible with drink when out and about.

 

Everyone should be teaching their kids to be responsible and to look after themselves when out because criminals will pounce when they see they've got a chance.

No rape is the victims fault... that is the point. Whether in a back alley at 2am.... or your lounge room... it is NOT the victims fault EVER.

 

This is the exact attitude that im talking about

[Izzy]

4 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

I came to rape you the other day.. but walked into the room.. and forgot why i was there

 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

Yes, it could be argued by a lawyer that it was a consensual act and that the victim was consensual whilst she was drunk/was embarrassed to have sex with the defendant/all the above.

 

Topping old Doris down the street can never have the same defence of a totally legal, honest act, you're at least looking at manslaughter. Same goes for most other crimes.

 

Again, I think those cases (consensual turning to nonconsent so lines getting blurred) are a minority of cases and so the amount of times where such a defence can be used (as well as the whole discussion on the topic) is vastly out of proportion to the amount of times it "should" (using that term loosely) be used.

[Strokes]

35 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

yep, certainly not just women. But the saying people should make themselves less vulnerable still places some responsibilty on the victim.

 

Which especially when stated by a judge after an attack is just making the victim feel guilty.

Absolute nonsense.

[Finnaldo]

Just now, ozleicester said:

but as a society we tell women that... they have to" be safe", "stay with friends", "dont get drunk".. "dont walk alone at night".. etc or you might get raped... is reinforcing that stopping rape is up to them.... and therefore if they are raped, they have some responsibility.

 

That's because these people exist, it's the same as not telling blokes or lasses to not waddle off down a dark alley pissed at 3am. It's a lot more dangerous an environment than any other time especially when you're less able.

 

As to warnings, if I told my old man I going out when I was 18 he told me all those things, so I don't see how that's a female only issue? When you have kids it's your responsibility to teach them that it can be dangerous if you don't look after yourself at that time.

Edited 28 March 2017 by Finnaldo

[Finnaldo]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Again, I think those cases (consensual turning to nonconsent so lines getting blurred) are a minority of cases and so the amount of times where such a defence can be used (as well as the whole discussion on the topic) is vastly out of proportion to the amount of times it "should" (using that term loosely) be used.

 

I agree with you, it's just that in many cases it's the only way out so as many lawyers use it as possible, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

[ozleicester]

1 minute ago, Finnaldo said:

 

That's because these people exist, it's the same as not telling blokes or lasses to not waddle off down a dark alley pissed at 3am. It's a lot more dangerous an environment than any other time especially when you're less able.

 

As to warnings, if I tell my old man I going out when I was 18 he told me all those things, so I don't see how that's a female only issue? When you have kids it's your responsibility to teach them that it can be dangerous if you don't look after yourself at that time.

Did you dad tell you that it was your fault that you got beaten up or lost your phone etc  when you went out?... if so... did that make you feel better about the event?

[AKCJ]

Just now, ozleicester said:

No rape is the victims fault... that is the point. Whether in a back alley at 2am.... or your lounge room... it is NOT the victims fault EVER.

 

This is the exact attitude that im talking about

It is though. Obviously there needs to be a rapist in the equation and it wouldn't happen without him/her but if a woman goes out and gets that drunk they can't remember then she has been irresponsible. It's that simple.

 

We don't live in a perfect world where you can do what you want without repercussions. Rapists are opportunistic dickheads. If they spot a chance they will take it. It's up to everybody to be responsible enough to be able to stop it as much as possible. If you get plastered you have to accept that you've given someone a chance to commit a crime upon you.

 

Unfortunately we don't live in a plush heaven. There are people wanting to take advantage of you.

[Manwell Pablo]

3 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

That's because these people exist, it's the same as not telling blokes or lasses to not waddle off down a dark alley pissed at 3am. It's a lot more dangerous an environment than any other time especially when you're less able.

 

As to warnings, if I told my old man I going out when I was 18 he told me all those things, so I don't see how that's a female only issue? When you have kids it's your responsibility to teach them that it can be dangerous if you don't look after yourself at that time.

 

Nah, what you actually do is tell them to go out, do what they want, and if something happens to them it's ok, as it wasn't their fault. 

 

 

 

 

[AKCJ]

Just now, ozleicester said:

Did you dad tell you that it was your fault that you got beaten up or lost your phone etc  when you went out?... if so... did that make you feel better about the event?

I lost my phone in my first week at Uni and my dad gave me the bollocking of my life because I couldn't remember what had happened but that's because he realised that you can't just blame everybody else in life. I had a responsibility to look after my phone and I was careless enough to get stupidly drunk.

[Manwell Pablo]

Just now, AKCJ said:

I lost my phone in my first week at Uni and my dad gave me the bollocking of my life because I couldn't remember what had happened but that's because he realised that you can't just blame everybody else in life. I had a responsibility to look after my phone and I was careless enough to get stupidly drunk.

 

Tbf no third party involved there so not the greatest example. 

[matty98]

3 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Did you dad tell you that it was your fault that you got beaten up or lost your phone etc  when you went out?... if so... did that make you feel better about the event?

It's not about making the victim feel better about it, it's about preventing it in the future surely?

[AKCJ]

Just now, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Tbf no third party involved there so not the greatest example. 

How do I know?

It was probably snatched right out of my hands. I was ****ing wankered.

[ozleicester]

to my comment

 

"No rape is the victims fault"

 

.. this is a response...

 

 

2 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

It is though. Obviously there needs to be a rapist in the equation and it wouldn't happen without him/her but if a woman goes out and gets that drunk they can't remember then she has been irresponsible. It's that simple.

The judges comments and (apparently the generally held opinion on here) reinforces this absurd idea.. and forces it on our children, our young men have a built in excuse.. our young women have a built in guilt.

 

and on that note.. its late and im off to bed, thanks for the chat

 

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

It is though. Obviously there needs to be a rapist in the equation and it wouldn't happen without him/her but if a woman goes out and gets that drunk they can't remember then she has been irresponsible. It's that simple.

 

We don't live in a perfect world where you can do what you want without repercussions. Rapists are opportunistic dickheads. If they spot a chance they will take it. It's up to everybody to be responsible enough to be able to stop it as much as possible. If you get plastered you have to accept that you've given someone a chance to commit a crime upon you.

 

Unfortunately we don't live in a plush heaven. There are people wanting to take advantage of you.

 

3

 

Then let's at least try to do something about that, rather than merely accepting it. Don't see much of that. Yeah, the world is a deeply messed up place right now with messed up people, and as such don't we have the obligation to the future to try to make it a bit better by lessening the underlying issue?

 

(Of course, it might be there is nothing we can do about it.)

 

7 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

I agree with you, it's just that in many cases it's the only way out so as many lawyers use it as possible, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

 

 

That's fair enough.

Edited 28 March 2017 by leicsmac

[Manwell Pablo]

Just now, AKCJ said:

How do I know?

It was probably snatched right out of my hands. I was ****ing wankered.

  Good point

[matty98]

1 minute ago, ozleicester said:

to my comment

 

"No rape is the victims fault"

 

.. this is a response...

 

 

The judges comments and (apparently the generally held opinion on here) reinforces this absurd idea.. and forces it on our children, our young men have a built in excuse.. our young women have a built in guilt.

 

and on that note.. its late and im off to bed, thanks for the chat

 

What a ridiculous thing to say. No one here has excused anyone for raping someone.

[AKCJ]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

Then let's at least try to do something about that, rather than merely accepting it. Don't see much of that.

 

(Of course, it might be there is nothing we can do about it.)

Absolutely. We need to make this country safer but in the mean time it's smart to be cautious when out and about.

 

4 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

to my comment

 

"No rape is the victims fault"

 

.. this is a response...

You tell your friends and family to do as they please when out and about and i'll continue to tell mine to be safe and to be cautious.

 

I'm not suggesting that anything is flat out the victims fault. Only that every adult has a responsibility to look after themselves to the best of their ability.

Edited 28 March 2017 by AKCJ

[Finnaldo]

Just now, ozleicester said:

Did you dad tell you that it was your fault that you got beaten up or lost your phone etc  when you went out?... if so... did that make you feel better about the event?

 

What are you talking about?? I never lost my phone because I never drank myself under the table and I never got beaten up because I was aware enough to avoid confrontation and always got a cab home.

 

I don't know what point you're trying to make because I never blamed or put fault on the victim. It's about avoiding future situations IF POSSIBLE by drinking to your limit. Of course it won't make rape disappear but I don't get how you can't understand that male or female or fvcking alien you're more vulnerable when you're drunk. It's not a discussion, it's a fact. You're just using strawman after strawman at this point.

[leicsmac]

Just now, AKCJ said:

Absolutely. We need to make this country safer but in the mean time it's smart to be cautious when out and about.

 

1

Yeah, that's about right.

 

I'd just like to see a bit more effort placed on making things better rather than grudging acceptance. But so it goes.

[stix]

56 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

yep, certainly not just women. But the saying people should make themselves less vulnerable still places some responsibilty on the victim.

 

So to be clear then, to absolve all responsibility, Human beings should make no personal effort to make themselves less vulnerable to acts of crime?

 

Nobody on here is saying that a victim of rape is in any way responsible for that hideous crime being commited against them. 

 

What people ARE saying is that us human beings have a responsibility to ourselves to put us in the best position to prevent crimes being committed against us, because the fact is that there are plenty of sick & twisted cnuts in this world. Whether that is trying to prevent us from being a victim of burglary, assault, rape, whatever. 

 

Not one person has said that if a woman or man goes in town, gets pissed and is sexually assaulted it's their fault. 

 

 

[Countryfox]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

Would these women be in less danger if they could run away, scream or fight back against the racist?

Is the rapist a racist ?? ....     The discussion isn't quite as black and white as i first thought .....

[Darkon84]

1 hour ago, ozleicester said:

Did you dad tell you that it was your fault that you got beaten up or lost your phone etc  when you went out?... if so... did that make you feel better about the event?

 

When I was 18, I'd been out in Leicester on all day bender from midday on the Stella with a mate. By the time 11pm came, I was well and truly hammered, ran my mouth off at a group of older lads who'd barged past us, and we (me in particular though because I was such a state) got the absolute pasting of my life. Broken nose, chipped eye socket, black eyes, cuts and bruises on my body from being booted on the floor. Then I had to go for a nice Easter Sunday meal with all my family and my Grandad the next day

Needless to say, I got a severe talking to, called every name under the sun by my Dad etc. he did tell me it was my fault, because it was, almost 100%. Yes the other lads barged past, but if I'd not been wasted, I'd have either avoided them or certainly not run my mouth off at them in the way I did. It didn't make me feel better, but it definitely opened my eyes and I've never been in the situation since.

[potter3]

So from what I can gather, Oz thinks it's better that to be in a situation where we're telling rape victims that it wasn't their fault, after a rape has occurred, than to be reminding women that we do in fact live in the real world, and there are people out there that will hurt you given half a chance? Mind-boggling.