What grinds my gears...

[filbertway]

2 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

rapes occur in daylight.. in peoples homes, schools, hospitals... etc etc...

 

If a woman is raped at home at midday.. is she less responsible than a woman raped at 2am outside a club?

Neither are responsible, it depends where your local rapists hang out, but I'd assume it's more likely to happen outside a club at 2am.

 

Just like I'd be more likely to be mugged walking drunk or even sober around town at 2am than I would if I was on my way to work in the morning.

 

The most annoying thing, if anything, is that he's pointing out the obvious (to most people).

[Webbo]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Again, I raise my point from earlier. Rape is the only 'major' crime in which this discussion is widespread, even institutionalised as a regular defence lawyer tactic.

 

Why is that?

It's not that widespread though is it? 95% of the population don't consider this an issue and think the judge was talking common sense.

[ozleicester]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Again, I raise my point from earlier. Rape is the only 'major' crime in which this discussion is widespread, even institutionalised as a regular defence lawyer tactic.

 

Why is that?

Ive no idea.... is it because "we" use it to continue to shame, blame and subjugate women?

[FoxesDeb]

15 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

But how far must you reduce it... not getting drunk... not going out at night... not leaving your house at all. All of these things increase your risk... but YOU are not responsible, you should be able to do these things... and if women are told that they shouldnt "do that, go there, drink that"... we are placing some responsibility on them.

Any victim of any crime, whether sexual assault or not, is never actually responsible for the crime as they didn't commit it. But what we are all responsible for is reducing our risk, and I really can't see why rape is treated any differently. I know in an ideal world I should be able to do these things, but the fact is I would be putting myself at risk, and my risk is my responsibility

Edited 28 March 2017 by FoxesDeb
Typo

[ozleicester]

Just now, FoxesDeb said:

Any victim of any crime, whether sexual assault or not, is never actually responsible for the crime as they didn't commit it. But what we are all responsible for is reducing our risk, and I really can't see why rape is treated any differently. I know in an ideal world I should be able to do these things, but the fact is I would be putting myself at risk, and my risk is my 

but... by saying that you shouldnt "be there"... "be drunk" etc... we ARE placing some responsibility.

 

Our children are growing up being told... by the law itsself... that (in this case and many others) the victim bears some responsibility because of what they did, where they went.

 

The victim, did not cause the rape, the victim being drunk did not cause the rape. The victim is NOT in any way responsible for the actions of a another person.

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Webbo said:

It's not that widespread though is it? 95% of the population don't consider this an issue and think the judge was talking common sense.

Really? You don't hear the whispers of 'she (or even he) must have done something to..." that happen whenever there is a high-profile rape case, and defence lawyers don't use it as a legitimate tactic - rather than, say, serious assault cases where instead they would focus on some aspect of the accused to mitigate the circumstances, rather than the victim?

 

I don't believe that.

 

Edit: Now that I think on it it happens in a fair few domestic violence cases, too.

Edited 28 March 2017 by leicsmac

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Really? You don't hear the whispers of 'she (or even he) must have done something to..." that happen whenever there is a high-profile rape case, and defence lawyers don't use it as a legitimate tactic - rather than, say, serious assault cases where instead they would focus on some aspect of the accused to mitigate the circumstances, rather than the victim?

 

I don't believe that.

Honestly? No.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Webbo said:

Honestly? No.

Then quite frankly I must resist the urge to go all Big Nige and start talking about ostriches, Webs. But fair enough.

 

It happens, though.

[ozleicester]

i think we may have slipped away from the basis of this discussion....

 

"a judge who said women were putting themselves in danger by drinking "

....that is quite simply BLAMING the victim

 

If you are a woman and you have a drink... you are putting YOURSELF in danger...

 

this is what we are teaching our children.... boys rapists its not all your fault... girls. victims.... some of it is your fault.

[Finnaldo]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Again, I raise my point from earlier. Rape is the only 'major' crime in which this discussion is widespread, even institutionalised as a regular defence lawyer tactic.

 

Why is that?

 

Because it's the only major crime minus assisted suicide in which the incriminating act can be consensual. No-one ever gets consensually murdered, mugged, assaulted, robbed, home invaded or arson'd. Sex is consensual and therefore it's easier to call a drunk victim being willing at the time.

 

Not that I agree with it in the slightest, but it's easy to see why it happens really.

[AKCJ]

8 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

Ive no idea.... is it because "we" use it to continue to shame, blame and subjugate women?

Rapists are the scum of the earth but I don't think it's asking much to say "Don't get out of your mind drunk because bad shit will happen" is shaming anyone.

 

If you do get out of your mind drunk then you're not being a responsible person. I don't think that's a harsh thing to say.

 

That goes for anyone who gets their wallet stolen, smashes their phone screen etc (obviously not comparing the seriousness here).

[Webbo]

Just now, leicsmac said:

Then quite frankly I must resist the urge to go all Big Nige and start talking about ostriches, Webs. But fair enough.

 

It happens, though.

Do you honestly think people in pubs up and down the country are talking about rape cases? People talk about football, what they've seen on the telly, which politicians are w@nkers. Deep philosophical questions are the preserve of internet forums, not normal life.

[AKCJ]

1 minute ago, ozleicester said:

i think we may have slipped away from the basis of this discussion....

 

"a judge who said women were putting themselves in danger by drinking "

....that is quite simply BLAMING the victim

 

If you are a woman and you have a drink... you are putting YOURSELF in danger...

If you get drunk beyond memory then you're not being responsible.

 

1 minute ago, ozleicester said:

 

this is what we are teaching our children.... boys rapists its not all your fault... girls. victims.... some of it is your fault.

 

Literally nobody is saying that.

 

You don't get raped if there isn't a man/woman ready to rape you. However there are steps everybody should take in order to prevent being raped/mugged/stabbed/punched etc.

 

One of the number one steps should be that you need to be in control when you're out in public.

[ozleicester]

2 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Rapists are the scum of the earth but I don't think it's asking much to say "Don't get out of your mind drunk because bad shit will happen" is shaming anyone.

 

If you do get out of your mind drunk then you're not being a responsible person. I don't think that's a harsh thing to say.

 

That goes for anyone who gets their wallet stolen, smashes their phone screen etc (obviously not comparing the seriousness here).

your drunk.... leaning agaist the bar, barely awake....big bloke walks up, grabs your phone smashes it on the floor.... is that your fault?

[AKCJ]

Just now, ozleicester said:

your drunk.... leaning agaist the bar, barely awake....big bloke walks up, grabs your phone smashes it on the floor.... is that your fault?

Partly yes.

[Finnaldo]

Just now, ozleicester said:

i think we may have slipped away from the basis of this discussion....

 

"a judge who said women were putting themselves in danger by drinking "

....that is quite simply BLAMING the victim

 

If you are a woman and you have a drink... you are putting YOURSELF in danger...

 

this is what we are teaching our children.... boys rapists its not all your fault... girls. victims.... some of it is your fault.

 

That was a very rudimentary summary by Jon. 

 

Here's some of what she actually said:

 

Judge Kushner, 64, said "as a woman judge" it would "be remiss" if she did not beg women to protect themselves from predatory men who ''gravitate'' towards drunken females.

The mother of two, who has sat as a senior circuit judge since 2002, said judges have been criticised for "putting more emphasis on what girls should and shouldn't do than on the act and the blame to be apportioned to rapists".

"There is absolutely no excuse and a woman can do with her body what she wants and a man will have to adjust his behaviour accordingly," she said.

But she said she does not "think it's wrong for a judge to beg woman to take actions to protect themselves".

 

And honestly, what do you think of the victim's comments defending the judge?

[ozleicester]

1 minute ago, AKCJ said:

If you get drunk beyond memory then you're not being responsible.

 

 

Literally nobody is saying that.

 

You don't get raped if there isn't a man/woman ready to rape you. However there are steps everybody should take in order to prevent being raped/mugged/stabbed/punched etc.

 

One of the number one steps should be that you need to be in control when you're out in public.

what about if you are raped in your home on a tuesday afternoon around tea time? who's fault then?

[Izzy]

Just now, ozleicester said:

what about if you are raped in your home on a tuesday afternoon around tea time? who's fault then?

Just going to go lock my doors and windows....

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

 

Because it's the only major crime minus assisted suicide in which the incriminating act can be consensual. No-one ever gets consensually murdered, mugged, assaulted, robbed, home invaded or arson'd. Sex is consensual and therefore it's easier to call a drunk victim being willing at the time.

 

Not that I agree with it in the slightest, but it's easy to see why it happens really.

 

I'm guessing that you mean where the incriminating act can, sometimes, start consensually - but yeah, I see your point and it's a fair one.

 

(I would warrant that the majority of rape cases do not fall into that category, however, and the amount of times the spiel is given outnumbers them. But I could be wrong.)

 

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Do you honestly think people in pubs up and down the country are talking about rape cases? People talk about football, what they've seen on the telly, which politicians are w@nkers. Deep philosophical questions are the preserve of internet forums, not normal life.

 

Speak for yourself, mon ami.

 

(Though yeah, it does tend to be the Internet where most of the victim-blaming BS is found.)

[ozleicester]

1 minute ago, Finnaldo said:

 

That was a very rudimentary summary by Jon. 

 

Here's some of what she actually said:

 

Judge Kushner, 64, said "as a woman judge" it would "be remiss" if she did not beg women to protect themselves from predatory men who ''gravitate'' towards drunken females.

The mother of two, who has sat as a senior circuit judge since 2002, said judges have been criticised for "putting more emphasis on what girls should and shouldn't do than on the act and the blame to be apportioned to rapists".

"There is absolutely no excuse and a woman can do with her body what she wants and a man will have to adjust his behaviour accordingly," she said.

But she said she does not "think it's wrong for a judge to beg woman to take actions to protect themselves".

 

And honestly, what do you think of the victim's comments defending the judge?

Sadly i think the victim is one who may have had the "its a bit your fault"  imprinted on her from an early age from the very things we are discussing here.

 

The fact that so many here are saying... if you are drunk... you have some responsibility, (and make no mistake that it what most of the statements come down to)

 

Obviously i dont know the full facts.. or her and her history, so i shouldnt be making a judgement... but as a society we tell women that... they have to" be safe", "stay with friends", "dont get drunk".. "dont walk alone at night".. etc or you might get raped... is reinforcing that stopping rape is up to them.... and therefore if they are raped, they have some responsibility.

[ozleicester]

4 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Just going to go lock my doors and windows....

I came to rape you the other day.. but walked into the room.. and forgot why i was there

[ozleicester]

8 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Partly yes.

so.. the woman is "partly" responsible for being raped then?

[Finnaldo]

Just now, leicsmac said:

I'm guessing that you mean where the incriminating act can, sometimes, start consensually - but yeah, I see your point and it's a fair one.

 

(I would warrant that the majority of rape cases do not fall into that category, however, and the amount of times the spiel is given outnumbers them. But I could be wrong.)

 

Yes, it could be argued by a lawyer that it was a consensual act and that the victim was consensual whilst she was drunk/was embarrassed to have sex with the defendant/all the above.

 

Topping old Doris down the street can never have the same defence of a totally legal, honest act, you're at least looking at manslaughter. Same goes for most other crimes.

[AKCJ]

4 minutes ago, ozleicester said:

what about if you are raped in your home on a tuesday afternoon around tea time? who's fault then?

I didn't say that taking these steps to avoid being raped are fool proof. No two crimes are the same and neither are two rapes. You can obviously be raped through no fault of your own through brute force or whatever.

 

I know it sounds harsh, but we live in a world full of crime. I don't think it's much to ask that you try and prevent crime as much as possible by being responsible with drink when out and about.

 

Everyone should be teaching their kids to be responsible and to look after themselves when out because criminals will pounce when they see they've got a chance.

[Manwell Pablo]

I dunno why you lot are bothering we all know when it comes to thing's like this Oz and his limp left wing wrist is incapable of kind of sensible opinion.

 

It is obvious not drinking until your seriously inebriated is sound advice. Generally to avoid becoming a victim of any crime, or hurting yourself, or losing things, or doing something you seriously regret, or making yourself ill etc etc. It's not blame, it's good advice that is all.