Absolute *** of our time Pt.MXXVI

[Fez of Mahrez]

it's a horrific story. having saying that I think we're calling our pub quiz team tonight.

''Black Eyed Baby P's''

Obviously not that horrific to you.

[Daggers]

Just somtimes there is some natural justice...

...and in a similar vein:

Beaten man had child porn images

A 22-year-old Carlisle man has pleaded guilty to the possession of 86 indecent images of children.

Matthew Adams, of Semple Road, Harraby, was arrested on Sunday night, shortly after being attacked in his own home by two men armed with a baseball bat.

Police are urging people not to take the law into their own hands.

Adams was remanded in custody for his own safety after his appearance at Carlisle Magistrates' Court. He is due to be sentenced on 11 September.

The court heard he had recently sold his laptop computer and the new owner had contacted police after discovering images of "varying degrees of seriousness".

Police are still investigating the baseball bat attack, in which Adams was also pushed through a glass door.

They have asked the community to remain calm.

[Jon the Hat]

...and in a similar vein:

Not one to take the law into my own hands, but when it is your kids, logic goes out of the window for sure.

[lou]

These pair....................

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Y...South_Yorkshire

Life meaning a few years in a secure accomodation as theyre too young for YOI then they get let out and given new identities like the 2 animals that killed Jamie Bulger who now have their own kids.

Cant believe any child could be as depraved as this... it defies belief.

I hope the victims can move on and make a full recovery

Edited 4 September 2009 by lou

[StanSP]

I can't believe they get a new life. Utterly ridiculous.

[Bellend Sebastian]

I can't believe they get a new life. Utterly ridiculous.

Sounds like they could do with one:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_y...ire/8235661.stm

Mark Easton ponders a tricky subject:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/

I wish I had the answers

Edited 4 September 2009 by Bellend Sebastian

[Guest]

The system that we use in the UK is not just punitive, it's meant to be rehabilitative as well. This is especially the case with children, where it is hoped that they can be transformed from little monsters into law abiding adults. We know that this doesn't always happen, but apparently it does in some cases. I can see both the pros and cons in this, so if anyone decides to reply to this stating that it is my actual belief (Thracian), don't bother.

Giving these kids new identities is supposed to allow them to live as adults without recrimination for their past actions, for which they have supposedly repented and changed their ways. I can why this is the case. It seems fairly obvious that in this case, their upbringing will be one major factor leading up to this horrific criminal act. Maybe earlier intervention would have prevented it, who knows. Similarly, we don't know if they can be rehabilitated to a stage where they can live as law abiding adults. It's all speculation. Locking them up, and spending all day with other kids, some of whom are older, from similar backgrounds, and just as much, if not more, experience of criminal activity isn't my idea of reforming their characters.

Like I say, I can see why they would be given the benefit of the doubt, but then again I can see the argument for locking them up and throwing away the key. I really don't know what the best solution is.

[Bert]

When I was reading the paper this morning, I could not believe it. It really makes my blood boil. I can't even begin to imagine what they'll be like when they hit the peak of their teens. I work with children this age, and although some of them are brats, I could never imagine any of these doing something like this.

I'd love to go and kick the shit out of those two lads who planned that massacre up at school in Manchester.

[Jon the Hat]

Sounds like they could do with one:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_y...ire/8235661.stm

Mark Easton ponders a tricky subject:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/

I wish I had the answers

This link from the Mark Easton blog to a pamphlet on early intervention is very interesting. I particulary like the quote "If people keep falling off a cliff, don't worry about where to park the ambulance at the bottom. Build a fence at the top and stop them falling off in the first place."

For those who derided my comments a few months ago about the huge extent to which people learn their social skills and empathy before they are 3 years old, have a read of chapter 2. We will continue to see horiffic cases like these until we learn that we cannot let kids grow up without care and expect the results to be good.

[Guest]

When I was reading the paper this morning, I could not believe it. It really makes my blood boil. I can't even begin to imagine what they'll be like when they hit the peak of their teens. I work with children this age, and although some of them are brats, I could never imagine any of these doing something like this.

I'd love to go and kick the shit out of those two lads who planned that massacre up at school in Manchester.

Indeed, utter fuckers too!

Idolising those kids from Columbine, reading some of their half-arsed philosophies about bombing a shopping centre just before they were planning the school too, talking about a 'wake-up call' to society. i doubt they even understand what they're talking about, like they've picked that up as some sort of buzz phrase and decided to take out all their hatred un undeserving people. Cunts

Edited 4 September 2009 by Guest

[Guest]

For those who derided my comments a few months ago about the huge extent to which people learn their social skills and empathy before they are 3 years old, have a read of chapter 2. We will continue to see horiffic cases like these until we learn that we cannot let kids grow up without care and expect the results to be good.

I was saying the other night that scumbags seem able to breed easily, yet those who can provide a loving, stable family environment struggle to conceive. I have friends who are undergoing fertility treatment, and it's heartbreaking for them when it fails. I can't imagine what they must be going through when they read about the way some 'people' treat their kids.

[StanSP]

Sickening and disgraceful.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8048635.stm

[Guest]

I sat in on this case. When certain posters start having a pop at the judiciary and so-called lenient sentences, I just hope that they believe me when I say that other factors can determine the sentences that can be handed out.

The criminal justice system in this country has numerous faults, but there are more reasons than soft judges.

[lou]

Jack Tweed

[Daggers]

I sat in on this case. When certain posters start having a pop at the judiciary and so-called lenient sentences, I just hope that they believe me when I say that other factors can determine the sentences that can be handed out.

The criminal justice system in this country has numerous faults, but there are more reasons than soft judges.

In all my dealings with the CPS I have rarely found them competent.

[Guest]

In all my dealings with the CPS I have rarely found them competent.

I was considering a career with the CPS, until I started visiting the courts regularly. Then I saw what a shambles the organisation is. I applied for work experience with them over 18 months ago, and apparently I am still nowhere near the top of the waiting list.

It's going to be the self-employed Bar for me.....

[lou]

I was considering a career with the CPS, until I started visiting the courts regularly. Then I saw what a shambles the organisation is. I applied for work experience with them over 18 months ago, and apparently I am still nowhere near the top of the waiting list.

It's going to be the self-employed Bar for me.....

Can understand why but its a shame in a way youre not as they could obviously use some sensible people in their to shake things up.

Bit like Social Services

[Guest]

Can understand why but its a shame in a way youre not as they could obviously use some sensible people in their to shake things up.

Bit like Social Services

Thanks lou!

[lou]

Thanks lou!

Well Ive had dealings with both departments in the past and it seems to me they have a lot of highly qualified people in them without an ounce of common sense.

Think they place too much emphasis on academic abilities sometimes and forget about the basics

[Father Ted]

These pair....................

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Y...South_Yorkshire

Life meaning a few years in a secure accomodation as theyre too young for YOI then they get let out and given new identities like the 2 animals that killed Jamie Bulger who now have their own kids.

Cant believe any child could be as depraved as this... it defies belief.

I hope the victims can move on and make a full recovery

Disgusting! They need to be hanged, killed, whatever because if they are doing it at that age, imagine what they will be like when they're older.

They are the children of the devil.

SCUM.

[Jon the Hat]

I was saying the other night that scumbags seem able to breed easily, yet those who can provide a loving, stable family environment struggle to conceive. I have friends who are undergoing fertility treatment, and it's heartbreaking for them when it fails. I can't imagine what they must be going through when they read about the way some 'people' treat their kids.

Unfortunately nature makes life very easy for those who care not for how they might care for or raise their children, and at a young age with no plans or resources behind them thoughtlessly become parents. Those of us who want to meet the right person, get married, buy a home and ensure we can support our future family are increasingly finding that it is very difficult to have that family once things are in place. 1 in 6 couples trying for a baby need some kind of help.

[Thracian]

I sat in on this case. When certain posters start having a pop at the judiciary and so-called lenient sentences, I just hope that they believe me when I say that other factors can determine the sentences that can be handed out.

The criminal justice system in this country has numerous faults, but there are more reasons than soft judges.

I believe you. Doesn't mean it's right, doesn't mean we shouldn't remove the reasons that prevent us having a more effective and respected justice system and doesn't mean we shouldn't take every chance to change things given the opportunity.

They are not so-called lenient sentences by the way. They are lenient sentences. In fact many make a mockery of the concept of worthwhile, fair or effective "justice".

In general I feel for the judges who a) Are frustratingly limited in the sentences they can hand down and the way those sentences will pan out in a practical sense and b) Seem to be at serious risk of censure if they publicly criticise the system.

I don't pretend that legal reform is simple.

But we need a whole new attitude towards dealing with crime in this country. We need to have full control as a nation over the laws we make, an education system which ensures that both parents and pupils understand the meaning and value of decent behaviour and we need to direct vast sums of presently wasted money towards a genuine effort to tackle the causes of crime. Particularly the unfairness and associated lack of incentive that has been allowed to pervade our society.

Hopefully then we will start to develop a nation of motivated people who have the respect for themselves that comes from having a real purpose in life whether through professional skills, technical skills, teaching skills, community/caring skills, communication skills, organisational skills or any other skills.

Skills, and the opportunity to use those skills in a way that fairly benefits self and community, is the key to a healthy nation and right now we have at least 10 million people whose skills either don't exist or are being wasted.

Once people feel that they are valued and that their life does have purpose there is far greater chance they will have respect for others and that crime will fall.

And once the education system puts over that the very notion of crime is for losers and the inadequate while emphasising too that it simply won't be tolerated by the law or by society then the sooner our national community will get healthier.

That doesn't mean we need more laws - quite the contrary - but we do need simple, unambiguous laws that safeguard the people of this land and protect its national interest. Laws that are fairly but uncompromisingly enforced and which follow our concept of what human rights are about not that of the EC.

Because no law should defend the human rights of an offender at the expense of the human rights of a victim.

As I've said countless times. Human rights should be championed only in partnership with human responsibility and responsibilities should be emphasised from birth to adulthood both in the home and the classroom.

No society should be putting up with or excusing the sort of bestial crimes that seem to be more and more commonplace in our community and which are being invariably committed by people already identified as violent or despicable criminals and should never be free in any case.

Our nation has to start taking some responsibility for the rights and safety of the lawbiding people on its streets and stop making any excuse they can find to abdicate that responsibility at the first opportunity.

Trouble is the human rightists simply won't accept responsibility for the consequences of their misguided beliefs any more than the Government. Perhaps we should bring back capital punishment..... and hang them first. Cos there's a case for saying they do more harm to this country than any criminal.

[Thracian]

The system that we use in the UK is not just punitive, it's meant to be rehabilitative as well. This is especially the case with children, where it is hoped that they can be transformed from little monsters into law abiding adults. We know that this doesn't always happen, but apparently it does in some cases. I can see both the pros and cons in this, so if anyone decides to reply to this stating that it is my actual belief (Thracian), don't bother.

Like I say, I can see why they would be given the benefit of the doubt, but then again I can see the argument for locking them up and throwing away the key. I really don't know what the best solution is.

And yet you'd sit in judgement?

With your education, if you don't know the answers, what chance is there that anyone else will?

The trouble with being "reasonable" is that you will always see both sides. And so you should but not at the expense of allowing argument to obscure the broader picture.

Laws exist first and foremost to protect people and our society from wrongdoers and the duty of a judge is to see those laws work as intended.

Anything else like rehabilitation is a bonus. A social service.

And the judge's first duty, surely, is to take responsibility for seeing that the public are protected rather than to second guess whether someone will or might reform.

Others involved like psychiatrists have the same responsibilities. They have no right to put the public at unnecessary risk just to satisfy an inner desire to be reasonable or because they are naive enough to believe they cannot be hoodwinked by the words and demeanour of an evil person or their representatives.

Debate is always never ending. What matters in relation to crime and punishment is the outcome - and first of all whether the public are properly and responsibly protected from perceived threats for as long as the system allows.

For that reason the judge must and should be fair in considering the evidence and deciding the sentence, remembering of course the circumstances in which that sentence will be served.

If you say allowing kids to develop among criminals might be counter productive, I'd probably agree. But you might also argue they are lucky to be allowed to grow up at all. The judge must take all this into consideration and in a wise society he'd probably have far more choices than seem to be available today and that, surely, is something that needs to be addressed.

But whatever the sentence it needs to be served for its duration. First and foremost the crime should be punished out of respect for the law and for the victims. Time should not be taken off for good behaviour but added on for bad.

And as I've said, all costs should be paid for in cash or in work by the offenders. The bill isn't my responsibility and society has no right to charge it to the public account. In the case of minors it is surely the responsibility of the parents who would doubtless think twice about bringing up criminal kids if it were going to cost them in lost benefit/ together with enforced community or perhaps even military service.

Hard but fair is far better than soft but ineffective.

[Thracian]

Disgusting! They need to be hanged, killed, whatever because if they are doing it at that age, imagine what they will be like when they're older.

They are the children of the devil.

SCUM.

While many in the broader population might think that, the excuse-making so-called intelligensia will seek to convince us that:

a) They might not be guilty.

b) They are only aresholes because of their upbringing and it's therefore someone else's fault.

c) They might well reform anyway and become really nice guys.

Not that the intelligensia will take responsibility for getting it wrong if the reality is that the offenders are subsequently released and go on to commit more hideous crimes and cost even more lives. Which we all know is so often the case.

I've always believed that if our worst criminals are removed from society once and for all there is virtually no chance of getting it wrong. Deportation to the central Antarctic and consequent banishment from Britain still has great appeal to me.

Even our resident lawyer admits to not knowing the answers some time and that's entirely understandable because there aren't any "answers" that are acceptable to all as well as being effective and foolproof.

So, given that, you have to accept that there will be mistakes on occasions and do your best to stand up for the greater good ie the protection of the general population. There is no doubting the crime and no doubting it should be effectively punished. Effectively meaning that they don't get the chance to do it again - or worse.

Edited 7 September 2009 by Thracian

[Guest]

There is an argument amongst criminologists that you will never be able to eradicate criminal behaviour from society. Some go as far to say that criminality is necessary for a functioning society.

Chew over that one.