Tottenham and other disturbances / riots

[pSinatra]

I don't have any faith in the police.  Some of the biggest wankers out there, in my experience.

 

Would I call the police if I had been burgled?  Yes.......because I need a crime number.  Not because I have any faith in them actually doing anything about it.

[leicsmac]

Fully understand your point. And I agree. We should definitely avoid taking any innocent lives unnecessarily and strive to have the best information available.

 

It is my belief that this was the case in this situation. Information gathering continues to improve, while people will complain about freedoms being diminished and a big brother state, I disagree. More information available to the intelligence and security forces makes us safer and reduces the chances of other unfortunate situations like that one. However, unless we disarm the armed police and security forces there will always be some chance of such things happening again.

 

I do not believe that a crime was committed by the police. They were operating under the statutes set out by the government. Which is a different discussion as to whether you agree with those.

 

Under the law and according to a jury of our peers, a crime wasn't committed, so fair enough. I do believe it is something of a miscarriage of justice when a man who does not pose a capital threat is shot, though.

 

As for the flow of information to the authorities and intelligence services...well, that's a matter for another thread. I'll say though that I have very, VERY little trust for those in power given its corrupting ability, especially those who seem to not be held accountable for the actions they take 'defending the nation'.

 

Out of curiosity you say someone should answer for it but who should that be? What would be satisfactory in this case? A senior police figure stepping down won't change the law related to police defending themselves when they perceive a threat to themselves or others around a particular area. Or would a change in that law be considered a decent outcome of all this?

I'm not criticising your opinion I'm just curious as to what you and others would see as an okay outcome from all this.

 

A good question. 

 

I would say that the officers involved and their commanding officer should all be held accountable for this. Agree with you that them doing so would not change the law, but it would at least give the impression that there is accountability for serious screwups like this.

 

And yes, a change in the law regarding accountability for events like this would be welcome, given what has happened here.

 

The police are a shambolic institution (public sector, what do you expect?) but Duggan got what he deserved.

 

He managed to breed 6 times though, so in a decade or so they'll be 6 more scumbags in London, as if London needed more.

 

TBH I'd rather have them loyal to the Crown (in so many words) than just loyal to money, ala private sector.

[ADK]

I don't trust the IPCC and courts to hold the police to account at all. I think that is part of the problem. It doesn't just relate to killings either. This case doesn't make the police look good either. The jury agreed that they shot an unarmed man beyond reasonable doubt. Cameras for all policeman would be a great idea, although it shows how little they can be trusted when police need cameras to stop them abusing their powers rather than for stopping criminals.

[Babylon]

although it shows how little they can be trusted when police need cameras to stop them abusing their powers rather than for stopping criminals.

Well actually I think the use of cameras is more for proving they acted correctly, rather than stopping them from abusing their powers.

[ADK]

Sounds like largely the same thing to me. The police ought to be trained and responsible enough to act correctly without needing cameras.

[Zingari]

I don't have any faith in the police.  Some of the biggest wankers out there, in my experience.

 

Would I call the police if I had been burgled?  Yes.......because I need a crime number.  Not because I have any faith in them actually doing anything about it.

So many of us now think like this unfortunately.  

[Samilktray]

I don't have any faith in the police.  Some of the biggest wankers out there, in my experience.

 

Would I call the police if I had been burgled?  Yes.......because I need a crime number.  Not because I have any faith in them actually doing anything about it.

Funnily enough they were fvck all help when my house got burgled a few years back.

[MC Prussian]

Funnily enough they were fvck all help when my house got burgled a few years back.

My room was once broken into some seven years back, when I was in British Columbia.

It was one of the most surreal experiences - first, coming to terms that I was burgled (for the very first time), then being unpleasantly surprised and even shocked that the police would only do a minimum of work.

They didn't care one bit about the incident, one officer came by and took a look at it, but didn't even bother taking fingerprints.

 

For days, I frequented the local pawn shops to figure out whether my belongings were already back on the market. I had no luck.

 

Worst part, however, was that I had to pay an additional 50 Dollars for an official police paper that confirmed the burglary to my insurance company back home.

 

Still, I can't be that angry at the police.

Given the circumstances and other problem hotspots in town (drugs, gang violence and the usual murder or missing person cases), my issue was of little relevance in the grand scheme of things.

 

Coming back to your original post, yes, it must hurt and feel like a massive downer, but all in all, the police are doing a good to great job upholding the law (exceptions apply).

[hackneyfox]

I have no faith in the police but I bring my lad up to believe in them, hopefully he won't have his belief in them destroyed as I did.

Constantly picked on for being a punk in the late 70s.

Arrested and then slapped around for an incident in The Kop, thankfully enough people stepped forward to say it wasn't me, including the guy who got assaulted.

Thrown out and slapper around in The Kop after a crowd surge, they grabbed whoever they felt like collaring.

 

As for asking a policeman the time, a few years back I asked a copper 'which way to the station mate?'

'I ain't your ****ing mate' was the reply, to be fair the copper with him rolled his eyes and gave me directions.

 

I wouldn't do the job whatever they paid but I instinctively distrust them.

[Babylon]

I don't have any faith in the police.  Some of the biggest wankers out there, in my experience.

 

Would I call the police if I had been burgled?  Yes.......because I need a crime number.  Not because I have any faith in them actually doing anything about it.

What would you like them to do, a full on CSI Miami job on your house?

[Merging Cultures]

I have been broken into twice in my life. Once in Leicester and once in London.

 

Both times the police came, took fingerprints, pictures and an inventory of what was stolen. Exactly what I expected them to do.

 

What I didn't expect them to do was suddenly produce the idiots who broke in. However, I am sure that the evidence collected from the two houses was stored to be used against anyone they actually were able to catch.

 

I am not sure what people expect of the police.

[Babylon]

I have no faith in the police but I bring my lad up to believe in them, hopefully he won't have his belief in them destroyed as I did.

Constantly picked on for being a punk in the late 70s.

Arrested and then slapped around for an incident in The Kop, thankfully enough people stepped forward to say it wasn't me, including the guy who got assaulted.

Thrown out and slapper around in The Kop after a crowd surge, they grabbed whoever they felt like collaring.

 

As for asking a policeman the time, a few years back I asked a copper 'which way to the station mate?'

'I ain't your ****ing mate' was the reply, to be fair the copper with him rolled his eyes and gave me directions.

 

I wouldn't do the job whatever they paid but I instinctively distrust them.

My only bad experiences with Police have been related to football. Outside of that they have always been friendly and done as much as they can to help.

 

I see so many people lay into the police on facebook, with ridiculous comments like. "****ing pigs, got nothing better to do" Then someone will ask what's up, and you get the reply "got fined for driving whilst on my mobile". Err how about, try not doing something wrong in the first place!!!!

[pSinatra]

So many of us now think like this unfortunately.  

 

There seems to be an 'us & them' mentality........in both directions & incidents like this just broaden the gap.

 

They suffer from an unwarranted superiority complex.......that they can go around doing whatever they like in the knowledge that they will be ultimately protected by the law - retrospectively manipulating the facts to suit themselves.

 

These cameras will cost an absolute fortune, as the suppliers will know full well they will be able to charge what they like as it's the government paying.  They seem to have all the latest toys, the fastest vehicles, etc.  I'm sure that some of that money could be better spent elsewhere, providing a service that could actually serve us.

 

I would be all for more policemen on the beat, interacting with the community (after some thorough training into how to speak to people without looking down their noses at them).  They don't need cameras, stab vests, a 3 litre BMW, etc.  Give them an Escort Popular or a decent pair of walking boots & a whistle.......like when I was a nipper.

[pSinatra]

What would you like them to do, a full on CSI Miami job on your house?

 

I am lucky enough to have never been burgled, but I know people that have & the service they actually provide is piss poor........a long way short of what any of us would hope for.

[Jon the Hat]

That they did, but an innocent man still died because of it and someone should answer for that. Incompetence due to lack of information that leads to a criminal act is not an excuse for being punished in other walks of life, so why should it be here?

 

I should add that (sorry about this BB) I think 'collateral damage' is one of the most disgusting terms used in the world today. If an innocent person dies due to acts by our own enforcement agencies (whether they be domestic or military) on account of preventing this nebulous 'terrorist' threat then they died a heinous and perhaps even meaningless death (which should be defined as such), and those responsible should be punished under full penalty of law.

 

if you are going to take that approach then you would not have armed police, and therefore the country would be a lot more dangerous, likely resulting in more innocent deaths.  You have to balance the risk of innocent deaths by well meaning police with the risk of innocent deaths if the protection of armed officers is not available.

[MrSpaM]

Anybody remember that TV program a few years ago showing the Leicester police playing hide and seek in their cars during working hours? Also buying Pizza's and stuff when they should have been responding to calls.

 

And they wonder why people have no faith in them.

[Zingari]

if you are going to take that approach then you would not have armed police, and therefore the country would be a lot more dangerous, likely resulting in more innocent deaths.  You have to balance the risk of innocent deaths by well meaning police with the risk of innocent deaths if the protection of armed officers is not available.

why ?

we didn't have armed police back in the 60's , and we've been constantly  reassured that crime keeps on  falling and we're only imagining a more violent society  , so surely there's less need for armed police now .

or are we being lied to about the crime statistics ?

 

edit

interesting stuff from the only public eyewitness 

 

 

 

The only known member of the public to witness the death of Mark Duggan has told BBC News that he believes the police did not need to shoot him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25657206

[Guest MattP]

Can you provide proof that Duggan has killed anyone.

 

How do you know Duggan was off to kill someone, people don't get killed every time a gun is pulled.

The gun had previously been used to pistol whip someone in a barbers in Hackney.

Unfortunately no, the Police tried on numerous occasions to get him in court for murder or attempted murder but we still have these places like Broadwater Farm in Britain where walls of silence are held so probable killers are almost impossible to bring to justice unless caught on CCTV or red handed.

 

The Police intelligence recieved was he was off to pick up a gun and then to kill someone, hence why they followed him, given the fact the first part of that information was correct I'd say it's a safe bet the second part probably was.

 

Whatever the right or wrong of the shooting I'm sure we can all agree that officer may have killed, but given Duggans age, lifestyle and prevvious actions I think its fair to say he has saved far more lives than he has killed.

 

I wonder how passionate your defence of him would be if your son had been killed by him in the past and you had to watch him walk away because no one would grass him up.

 

He is certainly no loss to society in any form, the worst part of two cultures come together and thats what you get, Jamaican Yardie influence crossed with utter white trash and that's the result.

 

People seem to get a weird kick in this day and age (only in this country mind) about defending these people, I reallty don't understand it. A jury made a decision based on evidence.

Do people actually have faith in the police? Genuine question...

 

Nope, said this on many times on here. That said I can't throw any criticism at them here.

 

 

 

On a sidenote I'd like to give a shout to the Tottenham MP David Lammy, what a man of dignity he is, he could easily have used this to his own end but he hasn't..

 

In contrast to the inevitable intended community division race baiting from the usual suspects Diane Abbott and Les Jasper last night Lammy has came out and appealed for calm, told people to respect the justice system, made clear his absolute contempt for the way the family and their supporters behaved in and out of the courtroom yesterday and forcefully stated that race has no part or influence on the case, I wouldn't vote for a Labour MP but if I had to Lammy would be top of the list.

[Merging Cultures]

if you are going to take that approach then you would not have armed police, and therefore the country would be a lot more dangerous, likely resulting in more innocent deaths. You have to balance the risk of innocent deaths by well meaning police with the risk of innocent deaths if the protection of armed officers is not available.

why ?

we didn't have armed police back in the 60's , and we've been constantly reassured that crime keeps on falling and we're only imagining a more violent society , so surely there's less need for armed police now .

or are we being lied to about the crime statistics ?

Realistically though a very small number of police are armed and lethal force is rarely used. They also are there to respond to the potentially deadly crimes. They are not the police who turn up to help your granny find her lost necklace.

Having lived in the US I can honestly say I really appreciate that only a few of the UK police are armed. And also say that I am pleased some are armed.

[ADK]

I think we have it right with armed/unarmed police.

[Zingari]

I think we have it right with armed/unarmed police.

Maybe so , but given that, we also have to accept that we now live in a more violent society than it once was, and stop pretending it's all just our imagination.

[Merging Cultures]

I think we have it right with armed/unarmed police.

Maybe so , but given that, we also have to accept that we now live in a more violent society than it once was, and stop pretending it's all just our imagination.

Oh I get it.

Your point is that the government is covering up the crime stats.

I believe on the whole that crime is decreasing for the average citizen. However, there is more violent crime happening in localised areas.

However, we do have the unpredictable but low risk of terrorism and the extreme level of violence that entails.

So, yes the intensity of violence has increased in relatively small pockets of geography and time. Which requires a highly trained small armed police unit to help contain for the majority of the population.

[Haydos]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-25663495

[Itsthejoeker]

why ?

we didn't have armed police back in the 60's , and we've been constantly  reassured that crime keeps on  falling and we're only imagining a more violent society  , so surely there's less need for armed police now .

or are we being lied to about the crime statistics ?

 

edit

interesting stuff from the only public eyewitness 

 

 

 

The only known member of the public to witness the death of Mark Duggan has told BBC News that he believes the police did not need to shoot him.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25657206

 

I didn't grow up in the 60's, but how easy was it to access a gun?

[ADK]

I don't think violence has increased in my lifetime. I was not around in the 60's however.