Animal rights

[Manwell Pablo]

I can't vouch for ozleicester's kitty, but I'm not sure I've ever seen a depressed cat. From my observation they seem to spend 20 hours a day sleeping, and the rest of it eating and killing stuff. Looks like quite a nice life.

Sure you can't stop them following their instinct and hunting, but you can limit their opportunity. I think that was the idea of the cat curfew here - to keep them away from nocturnal wildlife. Unfortunately it relies on owners to enforce it, and judging by all the pussy activity in my street that ain't happening

Surely you can see the obvious mistake you've made here.

According to Oz apparently you can.

[OzFox]

Surely you can see the obvious mistake you've made here.

According to Oz apparently you can.

Sorry I think I skipped a few pages. Last thing I remember it was Chinese dog eating and bullfighting. You might need to fill me in on the cat stuff.

[Carl the Llama]

Cat - depressed

How absurd, it is healthy, happy and living out its life better than i do...and, isnt out killing for fun....cant really say any of the same for you now can we?

Why is it absurd? If animals aren't capable of the cognitive functions that (amongst other things) lead to depression why do you care if they get eaten?

Keep telling yourself you aren't being cruel to a sentient being, I'll keep eating my steak.

[Guest MattP]

So his justification for harming an animal is to prevent it from harming other animals? Flawless, absolutely flawless.

I look forward to him supporting my local hunt now he has said that.

[ozleicester]

Is it actually happy? You're keeping it locked up inside - cats are independent little buggers who's instincts are to explore and to hunt, trying to tell them not to is like telling Lemmy not to be incredibly cool, it's not possible. While we may have domesticated it to some degree, the instincts to hunt are still there, you keeping it locked up is mistreating it.

I deeply appreciate your concern for my cat and as a result of this discussion i acknowledge that keeping my cat permanently inside may be cruel, as a result, today i took him outside and put him on the grass, he spent approximatey 1 minute standing perfectly still, another minute or so crouching down.. then sprinted to the back door, at which point i let him back inside.

I will continue offering him this opportuntiy in the future to see if he wishes to make use of the garden.

Thank you again for your concern.

You really are tool, I am referring to the fact that every time this drops off you bring back to life with another animal story no one cares about. If you stopped bothering us with this shit this topic would be gone within a week, why don't you give it a go?

Oh, im sorry, i mustve mised the election of you as decider of what is of interest to the entire forum... or are you referring to your little forum posse? Heres a tip for you, if your not interested (which given your constant comments in this topic and your apparent need to follow me around the forum, doesnt seem to makes sense)... dont click on the topic, it really is that easy.

You've compared meat eaters to Nazi's and the KKK so I'd say that's comparison enough wouldn't you, unless you don't view these groups as evil?

No i did not compare them... go back and read what i said.

If you say so, unfortuantley for you you've already unwittingly told us it's not "doing fine" by describing its daily actions which are classic cat bored out of it's brain behaviour. I really think you should give it to somebody who can look after it properly instead of mis-treating him quite so badly.

See answer above

Thank you for proving my point regarding childish remarks and attempting to draw the conversation back on to meat eating though.

your comprehension skills are something of a problem arent they, this is a topic about animal rights... you having them killed for your pleasure.... is cruel. That kinda makes sense as to why it would be discussed.

Why is it absurd? If animals aren't capable of the cognitive functions that (amongst other things) lead to depression why do you care if they get eaten?

It is absurd, because the cat in question demonstrates NO SIGNS of anything resembling depression, however, as noted above, i will offer him the opportuntity to wander the garden and see if that assists him.

Keep telling yourself you aren't being cruel to a sentient being, I'll keep eating my steak.

So... youll stop eating your steak now?

I really am so very pleased that so many people in this discussion have taken up the fight for my cat, your concern for the rights of an animal is music to my ears. Now, just need to look at that carcass on your dinner plate and think about its rights

[Jimothy]

I deeply appreciate your concern for my cat and as a result of this discussion i acknowledge that keeping my cat permanently inside may be cruel, as a result, today i took him outside and put him on the grass, he spent approximatey 1 minute standing perfectly still, another minute or so crouching down.. then sprinted to the back door, at which point i let him back inside.

I will continue offering him this opportuntiy in the future to see if he wishes to make use of the garden.

Thank you again for your concern.

Haha you muppet. You don't just pick it up and plonk it outside. You've kept it inside so long it's a huge shock. Just leave the kitchen door open for a few hours, he will gradually find the nerve to go out and explore and will come back later when he's had his fill. He'll want to find his own way out, just as cats will find there own way to anything. They're independent little buggers. Have you never noticed, if you pick your cat up and put it down somewhere, no matter how nice the spot is they'll always walk off. Go in try it now, pick him up and plonk him in front of his food bowl, I bet even if he is hungry he'll do a few laps of the room before he goes back to eat something. It's the same with you putting him outside, you put him there, he doesn't like that, he wants it on his terms.

[Rincewind]

My brother and wife's cat Socks gets up on the window sill looks at you and purrs when he wants to go out.. It can be late at night and in any weather. They open the window and if it's chucking it down he hesitates for a few seconds then goes. Next morning he is waiting at the door. Sometimes he is seen on the ledge outside wanting to come back in. He is very independent. No idea what he does but he's been done I think so the neighbourhood is Socks look-alike kitten free. There is a bit of wildlife. In the house he has his favourite spot on the back of the settee which a blanket is placed for him where he sleeps most of the time. Either there or where somebody else wants to sit forcing them to sit on the floor or on another chair.

[ozleicester]

Haha you muppet. You don't just pick it up and plonk it outside. You've kept it inside so long it's a huge shock. Just leave the kitchen door open for a few hours, he will gradually find the nerve to go out and explore and will come back later when he's had his fill. He'll want to find his own way out, just as cats will find there own way to anything. They're independent little buggers. Have you never noticed, if you pick your cat up and put it down somewhere, no matter how nice the spot is they'll always walk off. Go in try it now, pick him up and plonk him in front of his food bowl, I bet even if he is hungry he'll do a few laps of the room before he goes back to eat something. It's the same with you putting him outside, you put him there, he doesn't like that, he wants it on his terms.

For goodness sake, i didnt just dump him.

Ive been in animal rescue and care for more than 15 years, we have a family member who works as a professional in animal and specifically cat care, i am more than able to know how to treat and manage an animal.

as an aside the back door is reguarly left open and he doesnt make any effort to leave.

[Manwell Pablo]

I deeply appreciate your concern for my cat and as a result of this discussion i acknowledge that keeping my cat permanently inside may be cruel, as a result, today i took him outside and put him on the grass, he spent approximatey 1 minute standing perfectly still, another minute or so crouching down.. then sprinted to the back door, at which point i let him back inside.

I will continue offering him this opportuntiy in the future to see if he wishes to make use of the garden.

Thank you again for your concern.

I really am so very pleased that so many people in this discussion have taken up the fight for my cat, your concern for the rights of an animal is music to my ears. Now, just need to look at that carcass on your dinner plate and think about its rights

Thank you for your concern over my dinner, as a result I looked up the rights that pigs raised on farms have on the internet

Turns out, it doesn't have the right to not be slaughtered for my pleasure. Happy days.

I'm quite amused by the fact you've actually tried to put your cat outside just because some people are winding you up on the internet because you keep it inside.

[The Doctor]

I really am so very pleased that so many people in this discussion have taken up the fight for my cat, your concern for the rights of an animal is music to my ears. Now, just need to look at that carcass on your dinner plate and think about its rights

Well, according to the internet animals don't have the right not to be killed for my food. It wasn't really your cats right, more that you're a hypocrite to declare animal rights but think imprisoning them is fine.

[Jaspa]

Thank you for your concern over my dinner, as a result I looked up the rights that pigs raised on farms have on the internet

Turns out, it doesn't have the right to not be slaughtered for my pleasure. Happy days.

I'm quite amused by the fact you've actually tried to put your cat outside just because some people are winding you up on the internet because you keep it inside.

He probably doesnt even have a cat, hes obviously abit crazy

Anyway Oz, whats your opinion on bathing a cat?

Most of them obviously hate it, but you dont want a smelly pussy

[Manwell Pablo]

He probably doesnt even have a cat, hes obviously abit crazy

Anyway Oz, whats your opinion on bathing a cat?

Most of them obviously hate it, but you dont want a smelly pussy

So many jokes so little time.

[ozleicester]

Thank you for your concern over my dinner, as a result I looked up the rights that pigs raised on farms have on the internet

Turns out, it doesn't have the right to not be slaughtered for my pleasure. Happy days.

I'm quite amused by the fact you've actually tried to put your cat outside just because some people are winding you up on the internet because you keep it inside.

Well, according to the internet animals don't have the right not to be killed for my food. It wasn't really your cats right, more that you're a hypocrite to declare animal rights but think imprisoning them is fine.

Both..been researching the same thing at the same time?

What exactly is 'Animal Rights'?

The concept of rights for animals is simple. The most basic right of a sentient being, whether they are human or any other animal, is the right to not be someone else's property.

Being the property of another means that you are treated as a resource; your only value is that which your owner places on you.

When it comes to other animals, being the property of humans means that they can be tortured and killed in the name of profit – whether it is being imprisoned and mutilated on farms, exploited in zoos, circuses and rodeos or poisoned for a new detergent or mascara.

The economic interests of the property owner always outweigh the interests of the property, even when this interest is to avoid suffering, to be free from exploitation or even, simply, to live.

As long as other animals are considered property both in law and mainstream opinion they will never be free from exploitation. Just as we oppose the exploitation of humans, Animal Rights Advocates Inc. opposes the exploitation of other animals. Whilst there is suffering and injustice in the world we will never be at peace.

http://www.ara.org.au/animal-rights/animal-rights

[FoxyPV]

Oz, since we can't even treat other as humanely, why the **** do you expect us to treat animals better than humans?

[Mark_w]

The concept of rights for animals is simple. The most basic right of a sentient being, whether they are human or any other animal, is the right to not be someone else's property.

Being the property of another means that you are treated as a resource; your only value is that which your owner places on you.

Are you even trying to win this cat argument?

[ozleicester]

Oz, since we can't even treat other as humanely, why the **** do you expect us to treat animals better than humans?

So very true Foxy, but it has been proven that the way we treat animals is reflected in the way we treat other people.

I fully and unconditionally support (and regularly fight for) human rights and will choose a human life ahead of an animals. however ....

The test of a civilisation is the way that it cares for its most helpless members... and to me, that includes animals.

[FoxyPV]

So very true Foxy, but it has been proven that the way we treat animals is reflected in the way we treat other people.

I fully and unconditionally support (and regularly fight for) human rights and will choose a human life ahead of an animals. however ....

The test of a civilisation is the way that it cares for its most helpless members... and to me, that includes animals.

There are many tests that have proven that people who kill animals are more likely to be abusive to people etc but animals aren't even close in terms of status to humans.

Let's look after our own children first then we'll may be think about animals

[Captain...]

I'm probably going to regret wading back into this one but the relevance of how oz treats his cat compared to the wider picture of animal rights in general is very minimal, and it is an odd thing to fixate on.

Whatever oz or anyone on here has or hasn't done on an individual level is irrelevant compared to the institutionalised abuse of animals.

It is like ignoring everything that blue army Andy says about running and diet because he occasionally has a McDonald's.

The questions raised and challenges made by oz are valid and so are some of the rebuttals, such as the debate about powdered milk for babies. We should be taking on board what he is saying (and everyone else) and looking to improve our lives and not desperately looking for a flimsy excuse to justify ignoring it completely and not consider the massive health, economic and ethical benefits to reducing meat in our diets.

[FoxyPV]

I'm probably going to regret wading back into this one but the relevance of how oz treats his cat compared to the wider picture of animal rights in general is very minimal, and it is an odd thing to fixate on.

Whatever oz or anyone on here has or hasn't done on an individual level is irrelevant compared to the institutionalised abuse of animals.

It is like ignoring everything that blue army Andy says about running and diet because he occasionally has a McDonald's.

The questions raised and challenges made by oz are valid and so are some of the rebuttals, such as the debate about powdered milk for babies. We should be taking on board what he is saying (and everyone else) and looking to improve our lives and not desperately looking for a flimsy excuse to justify ignoring it completely and not consider the massive health, economic and ethical benefits to reducing meat in our diets.

We should all eat less meat for health reasons but the growing use of soya and soya based products is actually taking up more rainforest space than any other legitimate industry.

[Captain...]

We should all eat less meat for health reasons but the growing use of soya and soya based products is actually taking up more rainforest space than any other legitimate industry.

But isn't that mainly used for animal feed?

Actually before you reply I need to check your opinion is valid on the matter, have you ever kept an outdoors plant indoors? If so I think that means you are not allowed an opinion on protecting plants and plant life.

[FoxyPV]

But isn't that mainly used for animal feed?

Actually before you reply I need to check your opinion is valid on the matter, have you ever kept an outdoors plant indoors? If so I think that means you are not allowed an opinion on protecting plants and plant life.

It's used as a meat substitute as well as a method for green energy.

My podocarpus bonsai lives outside three / four days a week.

[ozleicester]

We should all eat less meat for health reasons but the growing use of soya and soya based products is actually taking up more rainforest space than any other legitimate industry.

im pretty sure 80% of the worlds Soy crop is used for animal feeds etc, ill check and get back to you.

A quick google says... "according to... soyatech.com

“About 85 percent of the world’s soybean crop is processed into meal and vegetable oil, and virtually all of that meal is used in animal feed. Some two percent of the soybean meal is further processed into soy flours and proteins for food use… Approximately six percent of soybeans are used directly as human food, mostly in Asia.â€

[ozleicester]

It's used as a meat substitute as well as a method for green energy.

My podocarpus bonsai lives outside three / four days a week.

...Do you just pick it up and put it outside?... try leaving by the door and see if it sends out a tap root.

[ozleicester]

I'm probably going to regret wading back into this one but the relevance of how oz treats his cat compared to the wider picture of animal rights in general is very minimal, and it is an odd thing to fixate on.

Whatever oz or anyone on here has or hasn't done on an individual level is irrelevant compared to the institutionalised abuse of animals.

It is like ignoring everything that blue army Andy says about running and diet because he occasionally has a McDonald's.

The questions raised and challenges made by oz are valid and so are some of the rebuttals, such as the debate about powdered milk for babies. We should be taking on board what he is saying (and everyone else) and looking to improve our lives and not desperately looking for a flimsy excuse to justify ignoring it completely and not consider the massive health, economic and ethical benefits to reducing meat in our diets.

Red Herring

Explanation

The red herring is as much a debate tactic as it is a logical fallacy. It is a fallacy of distraction, and is committed when a listener attempts to divert an arguer from his argument by introducing another topic. This can be one of the most frustrating, and effective, fallacies to observe.

The fallacy gets its name from fox hunting, specifically from the practice of using smoked herrings, which are red, to distract hounds from the scent of their quarry. Just as a hound may be prevented from catching a fox by distracting it with a red herring, so an arguer may be prevented from proving his point by distracting him with a tangential issue.

[Manwell Pablo]

Red Herring

Explanation

The red herring is as much a debate tactic as it is a logical fallacy. It is a fallacy of distraction, and is committed when a listener attempts to divert an arguer from his argument by introducing another topic. This can be one of the most frustrating, and effective, fallacies to observe.

The fallacy gets its name from fox hunting, specifically from the practice of using smoked herrings, which are red, to distract hounds from the scent of their quarry. Just as a hound may be prevented from catching a fox by distracting it with a red herring, so an arguer may be prevented from proving his point by distracting him with a tangential issue.

You wish, this is what you do when you get bought off the subject of eating meat! last time I checked the subject was "aniaml rights" so I think the mis-treatment of a domestic animal by yourself is far from a Red Hearing! As Mark, one of your own supporters might I add, has pointed out, you look fvcking ridiculous posting that animal rights passage about animals not being imprisoned by Humans and exploited, when you've got one imprisoned yourself. You can't even follow your own stupid beliefs yourself so why should anyone listen to a thing you've got to say?

Although why we are here I've been meaning to ask, plants are also living breathing creatures, fair enough they don't have a nerveous system so can't feel pain in the same way but they still alive until you come along and pluck them from the ground, and then they die, so why is this so different?

Mr Sharpenel, I completley disagree if your going to come lecture people on being cruel when you can't even look after an animal in your care and state such ridiculous things such as "he is not for my pleasure" or "I do not own him" but yet he keeps him locked up in the house, you're going to get laughed at.

Health wise, meat's like anything else, if you eat it in moderation, it's good for you. I eat meat, I am not overweight, I am not unhealthy. If you mean should we eat meat less on the whole then yeah your probably right there are too many people eating too much of it but I'd most certainly perfer a world where there is choice to do so than one that controls my diet for me. The fact some people cannot control their own diets is not the fault of the meat industry. This is without mentioning taking away all animal based products (which is what he is arguing in favour of let us remember) would lead to people with certain dietry requirements at best struggling through life and at worse dying.

Econimically I don't know what you're on. How much money does the meat trade make? How much does it spend on animal feed and other equipment, how many jobs will be lost? As I say, you've already said 80% of Soy grown is for animals, so that's going to go as well, so there obviously is going to be an unemployment issue. No meat Industry lowers productively and pushes up costs, it's be an economic disaster. Bemused by that comment.