'Gay cake' row

[Mark_w]

So it's OK for people to be intolerant? Then what's the problem?

I didn't say that either. I think you should tolerate some things and you shouldn't tolerate others.

Two men are having sexual intercourse, this has no negative impact on anyone at all and a positive impact on those two people, I think I'll tolerate it. Homophobia is having a negative impact on both the person being homophobic (in that they look like a moron) and the person on the end of it who is being vilified for something they have no control over. I won't tolerate it.

You see the difference?

[Charl91]

Get your point, but hindus will not refuse to serve you a burger, in fact many hindu ran places, actually do serve, all types of food and meat.

You're right, they do. However, if they chose not to, I'd respect their right to do so.

Anyone remember the case of the Muslims who refused to sell pork products in M&S a while back? It's much the same thing here really. Two groups, both motivated by religion, refusing a service to others.

Why is it that we have people keen to highlight the individual's right to choose in one case while openly attacking them in the other? I'm reminded of David Starkey on Question Time - happy to bash one group for their silly views (and rightly so) but keen to let the Christians off for similar offences.

The M&S thing isn't really the same. The bakers are self-employed (I presume), so they can choose what their company wants to sell or not. If you have problems with selling meat or alcohol, don't apply for a job working in a supermarket, where you know you will be required to do so by your employers. If I was a vegan, I wouldn't apply for a job in Mcdonalds and then refuse to sell any meat products, because that's just pretty stupid.

[MooseBreath]

I didn't say that either. I think you should tolerate some things and you shouldn't tolerate others.

Two men are having sexual intercourse, this has no negative impact on anyone at all and a positive impact on those two people, I think I'll tolerate it. Homophobia is having a negative impact on both the person being homophobic (in that they look like a moron) and the person on the end of it who is being vilified for something they have no control over. I won't tolerate it.

You see the difference?

I see you being tolerant towards homosexual views but intolerant towards religious views, based on nothing more than your own opinion that one set of views is more credible the other. You have the right to decide that for yourself, but not on behalf of anyone else.

[Mark_w]

I see you being tolerant towards homosexual views but intolerant towards religious views, based on nothing more than your own opinion that one set of views is more credible the other. You have the right to decide that for yourself, but not on behalf of anyone else.

I'm not being intolerant towards religious views as such. Only towards people who are homophobic, regardless of their faith.

There are many Christians who are not homophobic, and on this issue I have no problem with their religious views.

But I will not tolerate the views of people who let a book tell them that something with no negative impact on any human being, is wrong and that they should treat those people in a negative way.

[I am Rod Hull]

A lot of homophobic undertones in this thread.

AT LAST.... The best thing to come out of NI in the last 800+ years...

Not sure what their best track was though... Teenage cakes? My perfect croissant? Jammy Jammy? True confections? Here comes the summer pudding?

I really cant make my mind up.

[Rincewind]

This may be the only time that I will say I agree with Moose. I do not think the bakers were right but there must have been alternatives. Just move on. The bakery that does the cake can profit from it by the publicity from the couple and recommendations. Advertising slogan like ' We will bake for anyone' will attract more customers than one who says ' No gays'.

[Rincewind]

Why did they pick a bakery who possibly could oppose their views to bake a cake to promote gay rights? were there no bakeries that supported them available? At least it got them publicity for their cause or am I being cynical?

[Mark_w]

Why did they pick a bakery who possibly could oppose their views to bake a cake to promote gay rights? were there no bakeries that supported them available? At least it got them publicity for their cause or am I being cynical?

I don't think there are many bakeries that have 'we support gay rights' posters plastered all over the windows. I guess they wouldn't have foreseen any problem. You shouldn't have to spend hours researching which bakery to visit.

[Rincewind]

Yes but if the first one said sorry we cannot bake a cake supporting those views, they could have moved on to the next one who would be glad of the business.

[ADK]

Not sure on this. They didn't want to print a "pro gay" slogan. They presumably have no problem serving gay customers. They have similar stances on rude language, pornography etc. So would probably refuse a cake that promoted straight sex as well. If we're not careful we might end up needing a long list of what it is acceptable to refuse and what isn't.

[Mark_w]

Yes but if the first one said sorry we cannot bake a cake supporting those views, they could have moved on to the next one who would be glad of the business.

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree with that. But that doesn't mean they've gone out looking to get publicity in the first place.

[Rincewind]

Not read it fully but as ADK indicated it was more to do with the slogan than the people involved.A bad slogan would be bad publicity for reglar customers. No doubt it was a difficult decision. I disagree with their views but there must have been an amicable solution without going to the press.

I have joined the Secular society and one of the things that they support is religious freedom even if the majority of its members are atheist.

[Finnaldo]

Funniest thing is the Pope came out and said: If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?

But it is a tough one. He has the right to dismiss it on the grounds of his Religious beliefs. If he said "no, I can't do that, it's against my beliefs" it's fine, but had he gave his reasons particularly at them being gay then it's does need investigating.

The problem with both sides saying its against the individual's right is the biggest trap. On one hand, he owns a business and should have the right to choose his customers, but then as a result certain groups could be shunned, and effectively their rights as well.

[The God Emperor]

Funniest thing is the Pope came out and said: If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?

But it is a tough one. He has the right to dismiss it on the grounds of his Religious beliefs. If he said "no, I can't do that, it's against my beliefs" it's fine, but had he gave his reasons particularly at them being gay then it's does need investigating.

The problem with both sides saying its against the individual's right is the biggest trap. On one hand, he owns a business and should have the right to choose his customers, but then as a result certain groups could be shunned, and effectively their rights as well.

When the baker refused to trade with the group, no ones rights where violated. Trade is a voluntary exchange, both parties need to consent for it to be a trade. No one has a right to force someone to take part in a trade that they do not consent to. An exchange where one party is forced to take part against their will is called slavery no matter how well intended the reasons are.

[Strokes]

Aren't there any gay bakers that could do it?

[sphericalfox]

Aren't there any gay bakers that could do it?

Belfast the home of the gay bakery confederation. A city of historic tolerance and openness.

[Steven]

I have said before and I will say it again. Religious people expect others to respect their beliefs and yet use their religious beliefs as a means of excusing themselves from respecting other people's beliefs.

[Strokes]

Belfast the home of the gay bakery confederation. A city of historic tolerance and openness.

True, tough place to be gay. I'll throw them a bone and be on their side this time.

[Charl91]

Funniest thing is the Pope came out and said: If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?

But it is a tough one. He has the right to dismiss it on the grounds of his Religious beliefs. If he said "no, I can't do that, it's against my beliefs" it's fine, but had he gave his reasons particularly at them being gay then it's does need investigating.

The problem with both sides saying its against the individual's right is the biggest trap. On one hand, he owns a business and should have the right to choose his customers, but then as a result certain groups could be shunned, and effectively their rights as well.

To be fair, he isn't choosing his customer though, simply choosing the service he provides. He's not refusing to serve them because they're gay, he's refusing to create a gay cake. I'm sure he'd sell them regular cakes.

[Mark_w]

I have said before and I will say it again. Religious people expect others to respect their beliefs and yet use their religious beliefs as a means of excusing themselves from respecting other people's beliefs.

Some do sure, it's unfair to tar them all with the same brush.

[Captain...]

When the baker refused to trade with the group, no ones rights where violated. Trade is a voluntary exchange, both parties need to consent for it to be a trade. No one has a right to force someone to take part in a trade that they do not consent to. An exchange where one party is forced to take part against their will is called slavery no matter how well intended the reasons are.

Except originally they accepted the order, I think if when the order was placed they had said they were not comfortable with the design and the message there would probably have been less fuss. Clearly the local branch had no issue with it, but head office refused it and stated Christian beliefs.

Incidentally I'm watching the news about Israelis and Palestinians killing each other, and thinking that a gay cake is really quite irrelevant.

[Alf Bentley]

AT LAST.... The best thing to come out of NI in the last 800+ years...

Not sure what their best track was though... Teenage cakes? My perfect croissant? Jammy Jammy? True confections? Here comes the summer pudding?

I really cant make my mind up.

Some of us are old and tasteful enough to get this fine contribution, Mr. Hull!

How about...

- "(I just can't get) Oven Gloves" ...........had to get in there somewhere - their best ever track

- "More songs about chocolate eclairs and girls"

- "Julie Oven (Icing on fire)"

- "You've got my pastry cutter (why don't you use it)"

- "Wednesday week early closing (never happened at all)"

[BoneDog]

I see the world's still full of drama queens.

Bloke serves gay people with cakes. Bloke then refuses to write 'queer' on one of his cakes, sticking to his principles after already refusing to write other words that he considers uncouth on other cakes he's made.

The do-gooders are offended. Kill the Christians. Sodomy is fine, so get your shitter out!

Oof.

[Harry - LCFC]

So you're intolerant towards religious views, fine, but how can you then preach tolerance to all? Seems a bit hypocritical no?

Nope. The word can mean different things depending on where it's used.

There are certain beliefs that we would describe as intolerant because they are nasty and unpleasant. If I am unwilling to accept such views it is because I wish to see this unpleasantness removed. This makes me intolerant but in a very different sense.

I'm sure you can empathise with me here.

You know what it's like to be intolerant of certain religious views, I've heard you say it, but I doubt you'd call yourself a bad person because of it. I'm sure your reason for opposing them is the same as mine i.e. that you think they're harmful to society.

[fazzyfox]

How about baking some Mince Pies instead