Bellend Sebastian Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 Could I walk into a Halal butchers and demand non Halal meat ? or even that they serve me with pork sausages ? If not why not ? They wouldn't have any?
Captain... Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 Could I walk into a Halal butchers and demand non Halal meat ? or even that they serve me with pork sausages ? If not why not ? Could I walk into a garage and demand they cut my hair?
Alf Bentley Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 Could I walk into a garage and demand they cut my hair? They might be able to do it with a welding torch or something. If not, I hope they'd offer an alternative solution, such as washing your hair in the car wash and then slicking it up with motor oil.
Rincewind Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 All they have to do is put in their advertising material that they will not bake cakes with designs on they consider to be obscene or offensive as their products are aimed at all inclusing young childrenl Or words to that affect. They do not have to say it is because of their religion. But do we know how they responded to the request? Was it a sorry we are unable to do that order at this time. Or we will not bake a cake for homos because we are devoted Christians and what you are doing is against God's will. I suspect both would get different responses.
Bellend Sebastian Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 Could I walk into a garage and demand they cut my hair? Yes. They always cave in eventually
Alf Bentley Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 There really is a big difference between refusing to provide a service promoting a particular message (a cake promoting gay marriage in this case), and refusing to provide a generally available service because of someone's sexuality (or race/gender). I assume that if a gay bloke walks into this bakery and asks for a loaf of bread, they serve him like anyone else. If not, that would be quite a different matter. I disagree with their opposition to gay marriage but they have an absolute right to express it. Otherwise, would the SWP be compelled to publish the BNP manifesto if asked, and could the BNP be compelled to publish the Socialist Worker?! This case is clear cut to me - they should be able to refuse to produce a cake bearing a message they disagree with. The rest is a real can of worms, though. If I ran a bakery, would I be happy to serve Nick Griffin with a loaf of bread? I'm not sure that I would. Admittedly, that would be due to his opinions, not any aspect of his inherent identity, such as sexuality or race, but still... Maximum liberty provided that others aren't harmed (without legal justification)!
VLC86 Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 Why did they pick a bakery who possibly could oppose their views to bake a cake to promote gay rights? were there no bakeries that supported them available? At least it got them publicity for their cause or am I being cynical? I agree that its a bit pathetic but do you think they deliberately asked this bakery knowing they would decline it? If so, they are clearly looking for an argument but what if they genuinely just fancied deep throating a chocolate eclair?
Rincewind Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 A pub landlord can refuse to serve someone they feel is disruptive. If I owned a shop and Nick Griffin walked in and wanted to put posters up or started to spout his views I would ask him to leave and not return
Rincewind Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 I agree that its a bit pathetic but do you think they deliberately asked this bakery knowing they would decline it? If so, they are clearly looking for an argument but what if they genuinely just fancied deep throating a chocolate eclair? What I'm saying is did it need to get to the press? Sure pass around the word saying they would not recommend them as businesses sometimes rely on word of mouth publicity.
Babylon Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 Once it turns into refusing service to people for their sexuality, it rightly becomes a crime. Flip it on it's head, the gay store owner refuses service to someone for being straight - how do you react to that? I'd just go to one of the other 10,000 bakers in the country that don't mind.
James. Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 If I ran a bakery, would I be happy to serve Nick Griffin with a loaf of bread? I'm not sure that I would. Seriously? That seems a bit OTT. Firstly it's not exactly Hitler is it. It's just some obscure fat racist. I'd be happily make some profit out of an obscure fat racist. Secondly you're only selling him a loaf of bread. If it was swastika shaped and you knew it was being used at a BNP Tea Party maybe... but a simple loaf of bread? I think the buyer and the product need to be at a particular extreme for me to not conduct a transaction - for example selling depleted uranium to North Korea. But selling a loaf of bread to Nick Griffin, I think my moral consience could live with that.
Head Honcho Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 Could I walk into a Halal butchers and demand non Halal meat ? or even that they serve me with pork sausages ? If not why not ? ...or a gay butchers and ask for faggots!
sphericalfox Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 I'd just go to one of the other 10,000 bakers in the country that don't mind. Please note that the incident happened in Belfast. I've pointed out that the number of non-Christian/Catholic bakeries will likely be few on the ground or possibly difficult to find. Belfast isn't a metropolis of diversity and tolerance, despite a few modern buildings here and there.
fleckneymike Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 Should a baker refuse to serve you because you are homosexual? No. Can a baker refuse to make a cake with a political statement they disagree with? Yes If this baker had refused to make a wedding cake for a homosexual couple then that would constitute discrimination, refusing to make a cake which contains a political message is not discrimination.
Alf Bentley Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 Seriously? That seems a bit OTT. Firstly it's not exactly Hitler is it. It's just some obscure fat racist. I'd be happily make some profit out of an obscure fat racist. Secondly you're only selling him a loaf of bread. If it was swastika shaped and you knew it was being used at a BNP Tea Party maybe... but a simple loaf of bread? I think the buyer and the product need to be at a particular extreme for me to not conduct a transaction - for example selling depleted uranium to North Korea. But selling a loaf of bread to Nick Griffin, I think my moral consience could live with that. Yeah, you're probably right! Maybe I'd just recommend him a weightwatcher's loaf or some chapatis! In truth, I probably wouldn't be quick-thinking enough to do much unless he started yelling "Pakis out!" in the shop or something. If he was civil, maybe I'd get into conversation with him and understand a bit better what makes someone like that tick... I've only ever refused to accept business from people on principle a couple of times in 15 years, both due to dodgy commercial practices (cheques not in the post, unreasonable payment deductions) and have accepted translation work with content that I wasn't keen on....there are lines for everyone, though. Even if I knew German, I wouldn't be keen on translating "Mein Kampf" for Mr. Griffin, even if I might sell him a loaf, or better still a dozen eclairs so that he died of a coronary!
Steve_Guppy_Left_Foot Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 This is a very sensitive subject and I'm not sure what to make of it. I'm of the opinion live and let live, absolutely no problem with gay people and one of my best friends is a lesbian etc. But then it comes down to freedom of expression, for someone to be expressively and openly gay to be ok, surely having the opposite opinion should be just as acceptable, no matter how much I might disagree with it, it's a tricky one.
Rincewind Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 I wonder if David Cameron would bake a cake for Ed Milliband? Or even does he know how to bake a cake?
Dr The Singh Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 A pub landlord can refuse to serve someone they feel is disruptive. If I owned a shop and Nick Griffin walked in and wanted to put posters up or started to spout his views I would ask him to leave and not returnI have been to pubs and been refused on colour. And been to clubs and been told the same......what's your thoughts on that guys?
I am Rod Hull Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 I have been to pubs and been refused on colour. And been to clubs and been told the same......what's your thoughts on that guys? I got turned away from a club in Birmingham because I was a white male... they let white girls in but not white men.
Dr The Singh Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 I got turned away from a club in Birmingham because I was a white male... they let white girls in but not white men.I think that is totally appropriate, is browns in clubs only want white women but not the men... Too much competition.By the way which club was it, I want to go there
I am Rod Hull Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 I think that is totally appropriate, is browns in clubs only want white women but not the men... Too much competition. By the way which club was it, I want to go there Warwickshire Brownies cake bake off at Solihull FC.
Captain... Posted 10 July 2014 Posted 10 July 2014 This case is clear cut to me - they should be able to refuse to produce a cake bearing a message they disagree with. The rest is a real can of worms, though. If I ran a bakery, would I be happy to serve Nick Griffin with a loaf of bread? I'm not sure that I would. Admittedly, that would be due to his opinions, not any aspect of his inherent identity, such as sexuality or race, but still... I would sell bread to Nick Griffin, but if he asked for brown bread I would tell him it is white only.
davieG Posted 11 July 2014 Posted 11 July 2014 I have been to pubs and been refused on colour. And been to clubs and been told the same......what's your thoughts on that guys? They were just being polite/jealous, they didn't want you hogging all the females.
DANGEROUS TIGER Posted 11 July 2014 Posted 11 July 2014 Yes of course, a baker (or any other business) should be allowed to do what they want with their business. I'm sure if they engage in behaviour so crass (for example, not serving someone because of the colour of their skin) they will lose it anyway as people would turn away from such bigots on mass. How obvious was it that this case was ordered with the intent of shocking and managing to create this fuss as well? The militant homosexual in Britain is a sick creature that seems to know no bounds these days, from forcing hotel rooms to have them to encouraging school kids to attend gay pride events, how long being Peter Tatchell and his perverted ilk will be trying to enforce schoolkids to 'try both' before you decide? No need to use a different hotel or bakery when you have the liberal masses prepared to help you flaunt your perversions and punish decent people just trying to do what they believe it right. It's rather worrying that this liberal bigotry of everyone having to act, think and behave in the same manner is still being enforced on a people who have fought for freedom of choice. We have replaced the old fashioned bigotry with a newer one that will probably end up being even more dangerous to society long term. They have already said they won't do swear words or porn either on their products, taking people to court because wont write "QUEER" on a cake? When is this madness and panderment going to stop? How many posts before we get some idiot comparing this to 'no blacks no dogs no Irish' or mentioning he Mail? Brilliant post, Matt.
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