The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Dodgy Bob]

The scary thing for me is that this is the most important democratic question in decades and our public debate is absolutely pathetic. There doesn't seem to be anyone with both integrity and competence in the whole country. It's frightening to imagine these same people leading Britain blind into the unknown if we vote to leave. If we can't even have a sensible, mature debate then what chance do we really have of being able to establish a brand new globally connected efficient economy? The Remain camp are like the bounty mutineers, blinded by superficial rewards, leading us to a disaster on an insular, inbred, morally bereft island.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Allison Pearson and Eddie Izzard were incredible really, utter horse muck from both sides. Who thought these people would help influence the public's decision?

[Alf Bentley]

I don't think an image ever summed up an episode of Question Time more than this one.....

 

 

 

One of the most uninspiring Questions Times for a long time. The debate in this thread is of a better standard.

 

- Farage and Benn were acceptable from their different perspectives. Nothing terribly original, but made coherent points quite calmly.

- Grayling was deadly dull and seemed to have just learned a few lines from Leave pamphlets.

- Izzard came across as hysterical, uncomprehending of alternative viewpoints - and massively egotistical (constantly going on about what HE had done for the world); I bet Leave would like him to be on every week

- Alison Pearson is an utter waste of space with a poor understanding of the issues, just promoting her own career - despite being pro-Leave, she even had to be corrected for making false claims by Farage once! 

 

The debate is in a terrible state when Farage is 1 of the 2 most reasonable speakers on a 5-person panel

[Guest MattP]

The best    thing I can say about Chris Grayling it's that he's Iain Duncan Smith without the charisma. I absolutely loved Dimbleby going across to Farage to fact check something, how did we get into that position?

 

I just found Izzard so strange I didn't know what to say, the idea that you have to support open door immigration to a whole continent just because you are married to or have immigrant parents is so ridiculous it's hard to start with it, at one point he managed to turn a question about the Eurozone collapsing into him running marathons and coming out as transgender.

[Kilworthfox]

I am definitely in the leave camp!

 

I have listened over the past years, months and recent weeks to many thoughts on the E.U.

 

I appreciate that some people will be worse and some better off depending on the vote. I understand that both options have their respective merits. Neither 1 or the other side are stupid or crazy for their beliefs or projections. However you do have to think through the information and come up with your own conclusions about politicians, "experts" and any other influential factor in this debate. 

 

The way I feel now is best summed up by Daniel Hannan in this 6 minute video from The Spectator debate.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZRuIhtC9Mo

 

I urge you to give this 6 minutes, as I felt that it was clear and logical. This may help you to come up with your own conclusions.

[The Railway Man]

I honestly think the Remain camp are now losing the plot. The debate on ITV last night was such a clear win for leave it was embarrassing, Sturgeon was on the remain panel and I don't even think she wants to stay.

 

That Giselle Stuart was fantastic as well, theres a Labour leader everyone could vote for.

[Kilworthfox]

I honestly think the Remain camp are now losing the plot. The debate on ITV last night was such a clear win for leave it was embarrassing, Sturgeon was on the remain panel and I don't even think she wants to stay.

That Giselle Stuart was fantastic as well, theres a Labour leader everyone could vote for.

It was a poor showing from remain I agree. When Sturgeon said that she wanted Scottish sovereignty from the UK but wanted Scotland to be part of the EU, I thought she was such a hypocrit. The 2 ladies from Leave spoke extremely well, I have never voted Labour or Conservative but I liked their rational.

[johnny the fox]

Allison Pearson and Eddie Izzard were incredible really, utter horse muck from both sides. Who thought these people would help influence the public's decision?

yeah mate.. the difference is I wouldn't mind slipping pearson one..

[Guest MattP]

John Mann MP also out for Brexit.

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/1257642/senior-labour-mp-breaks-cover-and-calls-for-working-class-brits-to-vote-brexit/

 

Dear Sun readers,

THE Labour Party is nothing if it can’t represent working class interests.

But too few Labour MPs are campaigning for Britain to leave the European Union on June 23.

Why? Because in Westminster people are inculcated into Establishment politics too much.

And people have been terrified about talking about immigration.

But on polling day they are going to get a big shock across the country.

They are going to get a big shock about how Labour councillors vote. They will get a big shock about how Labour members vote. And it shouldn’t come as a shock how many Labour voters will vote.

Because a people’s revolution is under way. This is about returning power to the people.

At the heart of our problems, we have at all times one arm tied behind our back by the European Union and there is nothing we can do about it.

Nowhere is that clearer than with the free movement of people, which has, is, and will continue to undermine pay and conditions in working class communities. It is not sustainable to have 300,000 new people added to the population every year.

It has created two kinds of people in this country — the people who gain from this and the people who lose out. If you live in London and you want a cheap nanny and a gardener and a cheaper plumber you can get really nice, really good people cheaper than you could before and you can go to a different restaurant every night and eat a different kind of food.

In the North of England, in the Midlands, in South Wales, people do not get those benefits. They get the problems.

In areas like mine the schools have got huge numbers of new children coming in. They do an absolutely brilliant job, as does the Health Service dealing with new people.

But it costs them money, it shifts their expertise and resources. It has an impact — and the impact is huge. So the speed of change is worsening inequality in the country.

And that is not going to change unless we leave the EU.

I don’t want to live in a country with 80million to 90million people living in it.

I don’t want everything to be one big city. And the only way you can deal with that is by controlling borders.

There is another side to it. Many Labour colleagues say we should stay in the EU to protect workers’ rights. But the poorest in society are the ones who have been hit by agency workers and zero hours contracts already.

They are the ones who have been hit by labour flexibility with so many workers coming into the country.

The reason I’ve concluded that we have to come out is it’s impossible to change the EU from the inside.

David Cameron couldn’t even get agreement on child benefit being stopped for people here with children abroad. Even something as absurd as that cannot be changed because EU structures won’t allow it.

People want control over their own lives. They don’t want people at a distance controlling their lives any more.

Labour MPs also say they don’t want to campaign to leave because they don’t want to be on the same side as Nigel Farage and John Redwood.

But this is about each family in Britain. It’s about you. It’s not about me, Farage or David Cameron. It’s about what kind of country we want to live in, in 20 or 30 years’ time.

Do we want to live in a country with another 10million to 20million people living in it?

Do we want to live in a country where big business can do a deal with the European Commission and we just have to deal with it?

Or do we want to live in a country where power is shifted back to Britain and our Parliament and, beyond that, back to local people? So if you are a Labour voter you can proudly vote on Labour values to leave the European Union.

You are voting for fairness, you are voting for rights at work, you are voting for the NHS.

And you are voting for a country that is not increasingly run by big business in co-operation with the European Commission.

Take others along to the polling station with you.

Let’s see a record turnout in working class communities.

John Mann, MP

 

[Bobby Hundreds]

The Conservatives haven't been able to hit their targets for immigration from outside the EU, I don't think leaving will do anything to slow down population growth in the UK. Global population is probably one of the the biggest challenges facing our generation, there are simply going to be too many of us. With such disparity in wealth/resources etc we are heading for an absolute s**t storm.

[theessexfox]

Think I've finally made my mind up, after months of deliberation. I'm edging towards Remain for the following reasons:

 

- Immigration - arguably yes, immigration is unsustainable in it's current form, but the inability of the government to reduce non-EU migration does not fill me with confidence that even outside the EU, we'd be able to significantly reduce it. Any trade deals with Europe may also be less favourable to us if we have a so-called 'Australian-style points system', though I'm no expert on the issue.

 

- Economy - there are definitely risks attached to staying in and the future state of the European economy, however I think that the short-term risks of a Brexit outweigh the potential long-term positives for the economy, which are far from guaranteed.

 

- Democracy - I think it is an issue that the Commission has the most power is very unaccountable, however I would push for reform in terms of empowering the Parliament further, as it stands the Commission cannot impose laws without the consent of democratically elected bodies, if the Parliament had power to propose legislation I would feel more comfortable. I refuse to back a Brexit on democratic grounds when there remains a huge democratic deficit in our own country - remove power from a somewhat unaccountable body to give our own somewhat unaccountable body total control?

 

- Personal ease - I plan to work in Germany after my A-levels, I think general travel and working abroad and such issues will be easier if we remain in the EU, and the Leave camp have done nothing to change my mind on that. 

[Webbo]

I am definitely in the leave camp!

 

I have listened over the past years, months and recent weeks to many thoughts on the E.U.

 

I appreciate that some people will be worse and some better off depending on the vote. I understand that both options have their respective merits. Neither 1 or the other side are stupid or crazy for their beliefs or projections. However you do have to think through the information and come up with your own conclusions about politicians, "experts" and any other influential factor in this debate. 

 

The way I feel now is best summed up by Daniel Hannan in this 6 minute video from The Spectator debate.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZRuIhtC9Mo

 

I urge you to give this 6 minutes, as I felt that it was clear and logical. This may help you to come up with your own conclusions.

Daniel Hannan is brilliant. I hope they find a seat for him in our parliament soon.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Here's another who's not convinced anything can be changed from within. And you've got to remember the alredy scandalous immigration figures are just the ones recorded. It's anyone guess (but a significant number from the evidence) how many are not recorded. The fast boat and outboard engine producers must be raking it in.   

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36496203

This.  

[Trav Le Bleu]

Why are Brits living in Marbella called ex-pats, but foreigners living in Leicester are immigrants?

[Guest MattP]

Surely that's obvious? You call people who have left your own country ex pats whereas people who come in are immigrants, you'd hear the reverse in Spain.

I don't really know how much more simple you can make it Trav.

Neil 3-0 Farage btw - but Nige did a better job than anyone else, as much as bias is obvious you can tell Andrew is for leave.

Remain fired their bullets too early.

[Guest MattP]

And yes Daniel Hannan is brilliant, probably the best Conservative politician out there.

[Carl the Llama]

Had a conversation earlier with 6 or so brexiters talking about "taking back control" this and "soldiers who fought the Germans would be spinning in their grave" that.  When I spoke up and asked if anybody could name any of the 3 institutions that comprise the EU not a single person could give me an answer but I did get challenged to answer my own question...  When I named the Council of Europe, European Commission, and European Parliament the first 2 drew a load of blank stares and to the last one I got the rather wonderful response that it can't be a parliament if we don't vote for it.  Cue more confused tangential shouting about immigration, Turkey, lost industry, and saving the NHS when I pointed out that actually we do.

 

From what was said and most strongly focused on by this group and another separate bunch I later eavesdropped as I quietly watched the end of the France match in a post-work stupor, I gather the key driving force behind the Brexit point of view (in these parts anyway) is a xenophobic distrust of any immigrants (removing the Poles and, rather confusingly, kicking the Filipinos out of the NHS were popular topics) or else a vague and naive expectancy that they will personally have a noticeably greater impact on the political process within our borders.

 

For the love of God there are decent reasons to be disillusioned with the EU, the common fisheries policy being probably the best imo, but I didn't hear any of them being cogently broached tonight.  The worst thing is I can honestly see the Brexit vote winning and me having to put up with hearing all these cretins crow on about how they've achieved some kind of intellectual victory over the simpleton civilians of the other 27 member states meekly putting up with the EU's fascist control over their private lives.

[Nick]

Had a conversation earlier with 6 or so brexiters talking about "taking back control" this and "soldiers who fought the Germans would be spinning in their grave" that.  When I spoke up and asked if anybody could name any of the 3 institutions that comprise the EU not a single person could give me an answer but I did get challenged to answer my own question...  When I named the Council of Europe, European Commission, and European Parliament the first 2 drew a load of blank stares and to the last one I got the rather wonderful response that it can't be a parliament if we don't vote for it.  Cue more confused tangential shouting about immigration, Turkey, lost industry, and saving the NHS when I pointed out that actually we do.

 

From what was said and most strongly focused on by this group and another separate bunch I later eavesdropped as I quietly watched the end of the France match in a post-work stupor, I gather the key driving force behind the Brexit point of view (in these parts anyway) is a xenophobic distrust of any immigrants (removing the Poles and, rather confusingly, kicking the Filipinos out of the NHS were popular topics) or else a vague and naive expectancy that they will personally have a noticeably greater impact on the political process within our borders.

 

For the love of God there are decent reasons to be disillusioned with the EU, the common fisheries policy being probably the best imo, but I didn't hear any of them being cogently broached tonight.  The worst thing is I can honestly see the Brexit vote winning and me having to put up with hearing all these cretins crow on about how they've achieved some kind of intellectual victory over the simpleton civilians of the other 27 member states meekly putting up with the EU's fascist control over their private lives.

 

 

[Webbo]

Had a conversation earlier with 6 or so brexiters talking about "taking back control" this and "soldiers who fought the Germans would be spinning in their grave" that.  When I spoke up and asked if anybody could name any of the 3 institutions that comprise the EU not a single person could give me an answer but I did get challenged to answer my own question...  When I named the Council of Europe, European Commission, and European Parliament the first 2 drew a load of blank stares and to the last one I got the rather wonderful response that it can't be a parliament if we don't vote for it.  Cue more confused tangential shouting about immigration, Turkey, lost industry, and saving the NHS when I pointed out that actually we do.

 

From what was said and most strongly focused on by this group and another separate bunch I later eavesdropped as I quietly watched the end of the France match in a post-work stupor, I gather the key driving force behind the Brexit point of view (in these parts anyway) is a xenophobic distrust of any immigrants (removing the Poles and, rather confusingly, kicking the Filipinos out of the NHS were popular topics) or else a vague and naive expectancy that they will personally have a noticeably greater impact on the political process within our borders.

 

For the love of God there are decent reasons to be disillusioned with the EU, the common fisheries policy being probably the best imo, but I didn't hear any of them being cogently broached tonight.  The worst thing is I can honestly see the Brexit vote winning and me having to put up with hearing all these cretins crow on about how they've achieved some kind of intellectual victory over the simpleton civilians of the other 27 member states meekly putting up with the EU's fascist control over their private lives.

Basically if you want out you're a thick racist? Good to hear a coherent argument for remain.

[sphericalfox]

Had a conversation earlier with 6 or so brexiters talking about "taking back control" this and "soldiers who fought the Germans would be spinning in their grave" that.  When I spoke up and asked if anybody could name any of the 3 institutions that comprise the EU not a single person could give me an answer but I did get challenged to answer my own question...  When I named the Council of Europe, European Commission, and European Parliament the first 2 drew a load of blank stares and to the last one I got the rather wonderful response that it can't be a parliament if we don't vote for it.  Cue more confused tangential shouting about immigration, Turkey, lost industry, and saving the NHS when I pointed out that actually we do.

 

From what was said and most strongly focused on by this group and another separate bunch I later eavesdropped as I quietly watched the end of the France match in a post-work stupor, I gather the key driving force behind the Brexit point of view (in these parts anyway) is a xenophobic distrust of any immigrants (removing the Poles and, rather confusingly, kicking the Filipinos out of the NHS were popular topics) or else a vague and naive expectancy that they will personally have a noticeably greater impact on the political process within our borders.

 

For the love of God there are decent reasons to be disillusioned with the EU, the common fisheries policy being probably the best imo, but I didn't hear any of them being cogently broached tonight.  The worst thing is I can honestly see the Brexit vote winning and me having to put up with hearing all these cretins crow on about how they've achieved some kind of intellectual victory over the simpleton civilians of the other 27 member states meekly putting up with the EU's fascist control over their private lives.

 

 

in essence the Brexit campaign is based on the fuel of ignorance.

[Jimothy]

Basically if you want out you're a thick racist? Good to hear a coherent argument for remain.

He quite obviously talking about his experience last night and how he feels about those people views. Learn to read Webbo or don't bother contributing.

[Webbo]

He quite obviously talking about his experience last night and how he feels about those people views. Learn to read Webbo or don't bother contributing.

 

 

 

 I gather the key driving force behind the Brexit point of view (in these parts anyway) is a xenophobic distrust of any immigrants

 

 

The implication is clear. Btw I'll contribute as much as i like.

[Jimothy]

The implication is clear. Btw I'll contribute as much as i like.

I don't see the point if you can't contribute sensibly tbh. He said "in these parts anyway" very obviously talking about the single experience.

Or did he touch a nerve? Do you secretly hold similar views? Or does it piss you off your stance is associated with people who do. However much you try and deny it, there are a section of leave voters who are thick racists.

[Dodgy Bob]

I don't think he's implying that everyone who wants to leave is like that, but surely even Webbo wouldn't deny there's a pretty sizeable portion of people who will vote leave (or at least say they'll vote leave - many of them won't actually vote on the day) despite being ignorant about how the EU works and while having some xenophobic views towards immigrants.

[Strokes]

Bloke meets ignorant knuckle draggers in the pub shock.