blue army 1988 Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 Do people really think the likes of Steve Walsh and other back room staff will move to the likes of Fulham just to be with Pearson? Top of the prem and stats show that we have a good chance of finishing 4th or above and they want to go to a championship club like Fulham?! Surly they want to progress to the highest heights of the game that they can do? I no there is a loyalty there with Pearson but surly he would understand if they didn't want to leave.
americanfox Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 Just googled Ben Wrigglesworth, I'd imagine that our Head of Technical Scouting could be easily replaced? Surely all the algorithms are in place and computer guys are ten a penny? Talent matters. McKenzie was definitely a solid get for Spurs. At some point, it's hard to successfully keep on replacing the brain drain.
filbertway Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 I suppose as long as new people are brought in and educated to the level the previous scouts were, there will no issue. It is when we lose the experience and educators that it will have a negative effect on us.
RizLCFC Posted 16 December 2015 Author Posted 16 December 2015 Haha how can you possibly know that? Because we have a number of scouts working at the club who can replace him, just like he replaced Rob Mackenzie who left for Spurs a few months ago.
NewburyFox Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 Just googled Ben Wrigglesworth, I'd imagine that our Head of Technical Scouting could be easily replaced? Surely all the algorithms are in place and computer guys are ten a penny? Been replaced by Ollie Waldron who was our "First Team Technical Scout", whatever that means.
MooseBreath Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 Just googled Ben Wrigglesworth, I'd imagine that our Head of Technical Scouting could be easily replaced? Surely all the algorithms are in place and computer guys are ten a penny? I agree, looking at his LinkedIn profile, though I'm sure he's doing a great job, he does just look like a ten a penny data analyst and quite an inexperienced on at that, having only been working full time for about three years. I don't think true scouting ability lies with the computer guys and we shouldn't worry too much about losing them.
americanfox Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 I agree, looking at his LinkedIn profile, though I'm sure he's doing a great job, he does just look like a ten a penny data analyst and quite an inexperienced on at that, having only been working full time for about three years. I don't think true scouting ability lies with the computer guys and we shouldn't worry too much about losing them. That view is completely antithetical to why this club has become successful (en large part thanks to Nigel's forward-looking thinking). We *should* worry about losing these types of personnel. Obviously, you can replace smart people with smart people, but you can only do that for so long before you make a mistake and/or experience a drop-off. LCFC Analysis is WAY ahead of the curve, and that leads to more effective scouting b/c there's a symbiotic relationship between the technical side that this club is so great at and field scouting. It's nice to know that this club is progressive and using every edge it can to turn undervalued assets into our stars. How else do you think Albrighton was targeted? Or Kante?
Babylon Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 Yes I think it is possible for any number of reasons. It's not just about where you are in the league. You have no idea of how involved any of them are compared to how much they were involved. As for Walsh, do you know what his input is now compared to under Pearson? He was more than just a scout and had a lot of input outside of that, including on match days sitting in the stands and communicating with the bench. Something I've not seen him do now. Do we know what his relationship is like with Ranieri, is there trust there, is he listened to when it comes to players as much? There could be any number of reasons he would rather link up with Pearson again, not everything is totally dictated by where you sit in the league. Do people really think the likes of Steve Walsh and other back room staff will move to the likes of Fulham just to be with Pearson? Top of the prem and stats show that we have a good chance of finishing 4th or above and they want to go to a championship club like Fulham?!Surly they want to progress to the highest heights of the game that they can do?I no there is a loyalty there with Pearson but surly he would understand if they didn't want to leave.
MooseBreath Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 That view is completely antithetical to why this club has become successful (en large part thanks to Nigel's forward-looking thinking). We *should* worry about losing these types of personnel. Obviously, you can replace smart people with smart people, but you can only do that for so long before you make a mistake and/or experience a drop-off. LCFC Analysis is WAY ahead of the curve, and that leads to more effective scouting b/c there's a symbiotic relationship between the technical side that this club is so great at and field scouting. It's nice to know that this club is progressive and using every edge it can to turn undervalued assets into our stars. How else do you think Albrighton was targeted? Or Kante? I appreciate what you're saying, but it looks like all these guys do is provide and analyse the data. It's the direction of where to look and the knowledge of which attributes fit into what we're trying to achieve that really matters. With the greatest of respect to the tech guys, almost anyone could learn to do what they do. The real talent lies in knowing exactly what is needed to improve the team.
Captain... Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 Except for the fact he got us up and kept us up, let alone setting up the sports science and scouting departments everyone raves about. As for Walsh, do you know what his input is now compared to under Pearson? He was more than just a scout and had a lot of input outside of that, including on match days sitting in the stands and communicating with the bench. Something I've not seen him do now. Do we know what his relationship is like with Ranieri, is there trust there, is he listened to when it comes to players as much? There could be any number of reasons he would rather link up with Pearson again, not everything is totally dictated by where you sit in the league. There has been a few articles recently about Ranieri and Walsh, Alan Smith recounting an exchange over Kante and another one about no player is signed without both of them agreeing to it. I don't think there is anything to suggest they have anything other than mutual respect, trust and a good working relationship. I'm not sure what Walsh does on match days, but he is listed as an assistant manager along with Shakespeare and Benetti, so I would expect him to be doing something, we don't see him in the stands, but that doesn't mean he isn't there. Of course this doesn't mean he won't want to work with Pearson again, although I could think of a few reasons why not, and just because Pearson has turned down jobs because they can't afford his backroom staff, doesn't mean they will go even if his new club can afford them. I find this constant speculation over their commitment to Leicester, and the suggestion they are just hanging around waiting for Pearson to be really crass and it can only serve to undermine them.
americanfox Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 I appreciate what you're saying, but it looks like all these guys do is provide and analyse the data. It's the direction of where to look and the knowledge of which attributes fit into what we're trying to achieve that really matters. With the greatest of respect to the tech guys, almost anyone could learn to do what they do. The real talent lies in knowing exactly what is needed to improve the team. We'll agree to disagree. Saying they're only "data guys" totally misses the point, because they are the ones who actually validate what is needed to improve the team, both through analysis of current performance (doing the Prozone tagging and turning that into concise recommendations for each player) and identifying a shortlist of reasonable targets to pursue (see MacKenzie's Sky Sports column from last year). Any member can have a hypothesis, but then it's the technical team that validates that hypothesis as best as they can to help the club make less risky decisions. Would you rather have the days of signing shite like Mills and Beckford? It's a symbiotic relationship and a hugely important one at that.
Babylon Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 There has been a few articles recently about Ranieri and Walsh, Alan Smith recounting an exchange over Kante and another one about no player is signed without both of them agreeing to it. I don't think there is anything to suggest they have anything other than mutual respect, trust and a good working relationship. I'm not sure what Walsh does on match days, but he is listed as an assistant manager along with Shakespeare and Benetti, so I would expect him to be doing something, we don't see him in the stands, but that doesn't mean he isn't there. Of course this doesn't mean he won't want to work with Pearson again, although I could think of a few reasons why not, and just because Pearson has turned down jobs because they can't afford his backroom staff, doesn't mean they will go even if his new club can afford them. I find this constant speculation over their commitment to Leicester, and the suggestion they are just hanging around waiting for Pearson to be really crass and it can only serve to undermine them. None of that really counters what I was saying, we simply don't know how they feel or how involved they are. People are saying "oh they won't go because we're 4th", that's way too simplistic and as the point I was making shows, there could be any number of potential reasons they would be happy to go and work with Pearson again.
MooseBreath Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 We'll agree to disagree. Saying they're only "data guys" totally misses the point, because they are the ones who actually validate what is needed to improve the team, both through analysis of current performance (doing the Prozone tagging and turning that into concise recommendations for each player) and identifying a shortlist of reasonable targets to pursue (see MacKenzie's Sky Sports column from last year). Any member can have a hypothesis, but then it's the technical team that validates that hypothesis as best as they can to help the club make less risky decisions. Would you rather have the days of signing shite like Mills and Beckford? It's a symbiotic relationship and a hugely important one at that. I thinks it's much more likely that the likes of Steve Walsh, the manager, his assistants and coaches decide what type of player is required to improve the team based on their interpretation of the stats and their natural read of the team. You don't give that responsibility to a 24 year old kid with no professional football background who only left uni a couple of years ago. The likes of Steve Walsh tell the tech guys what type of attributes they want to see, the tech guys then trawl the data to find people who fit. It doesn't take scouting talent to do that, just technical know how. It's like putting filters on an attribute search on football manager. Anyone could do it. It's probably a £25k per year job. I'd suggest you read Ben Wigglesworth's own description of his job and background on linkedin to understand his role a bit better.
americanfox Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 I thinks it's much more likely that the likes of Steve Walsh, the manager, his assistants and coaches decide what type of player is required to improve the team based on their interpretation of the stats and their natural read of the team. You don't give that responsibility to a 24 year old kid with no professional football background who only left uni a couple of years ago. The likes of Steve Walsh tell the tech guys what type of attributes they want to see, the tech guys then trawl the data to find people who fit. It doesn't take scouting talent to do that, just technical know how. It's like putting filters on an attribute search on football manager. Anyone could do it. It's probably a £25k per year job. I'd suggest you read Ben Wigglesworth's own description of his job and background on linkedin to understand his role a bit better. We'll continue to agree to disagree. Saying it's like an attribute search on FM grossly devalues that statistical work, research, and hypothesis testing that done. I guess I can teach you multivariate statistics and then you can replace me in my job and do just as well, right? Of course executives tell analysts what do to -- what a revelation for me to learn!
MooseBreath Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 We'll continue to agree to disagree. Saying it's like an attribute search on FM grossly devalues that statistical work, research, and hypothesis testing that done. I guess I can teach you multivariate statistics and then you can replace me in my job and do just as well, right? Of course executives tell analysts what do to -- what a revelation for me to learn! Well I'm glad you've finally learned that because you didn't seem to know two posts ago when you were trying to claim that 24 year old data analysts were basically deciding who we sign. As for you teaching me what you know, I'm sure we're both good in our own fields. I'm sure you couldn't run a successful paper merchants and I couldn't do what - well I probably could do what you do, and I think you know that even now. That's probably what spurs you on.
americanfox Posted 16 December 2015 Posted 16 December 2015 Well I'm glad you've finally learned that because you didn't seem to know two posts ago when you were trying to claim that 24 year old data analysts were basically deciding who we sign. As for you teaching me what you know, I'm sure we're both good in our own fields. I'm sure you couldn't run a successful paper merchants and I couldn't do what - well I probably could do what you do, and I think you know that even now. That's probably what spurs you on. I was never saying that the data analysts were *deciding* who to sign, I don't need either words put in my mouth or patronizing bullsh*it, so screw off. Rather, they are an important part of the *process*. Just like within the squad, you can't keep replacing talents with other talents without it being risky, similarly you can't have brain drain and expect to continue being successful in what is a very important component of what makes this club's recruitment process very effective. If you can't see that the LCFC Analysis team (which is widely respected in the industry) -- and even more obvious now since other bigger clubs are trying to poach talent -- is an entity that gives this club a meaningful value-added edge, that's on you.
Number 6 Posted 17 December 2015 Posted 17 December 2015 I thinks it's much more likely that the likes of Steve Walsh, the manager, his assistants and coaches decide what type of player is required to improve the team based on their interpretation of the stats and their natural read of the team. You don't give that responsibility to a 24 year old kid with no professional football background who only left uni a couple of years ago. The likes of Steve Walsh tell the tech guys what type of attributes they want to see, the tech guys then trawl the data to find people who fit. It doesn't take scouting talent to do that, just technical know how. It's like putting filters on an attribute search on football manager. Anyone could do it. It's probably a £25k per year job. I'd suggest you read Ben Wigglesworth's own description of his job and background on linkedin to understand his role a bit better. Think it's probably much more involved than you say but different at each club. If you look at what Benham's done abroad and now with Brentford then you can see the power of good analysts.
Ric Flair Posted 17 December 2015 Posted 17 December 2015 You do get the sense that Walsh is settled here, he's worked with Ranieri before, he's now permanently living in Leicestershire having relocated and he's really seeing the fruits of his work with Mahrez, Vardy and Kante absolutely killing it. He's having a great time and I think the longer Pearson doesn't have a job the harder it'll be for Nigel to get Walsh on his next gig.
Gerard Posted 17 December 2015 Posted 17 December 2015 You do get the sense that Walsh is settled here, he's worked with Ranieri before, he's now permanently living in Leicestershire having relocated and he's really seeing the fruits of his work with Mahrez, Vardy and Kante absolutely killing it. He's having a great time and I think the longer Pearson doesn't have a job the harder it'll be for Nigel to get Walsh on his next gig. He must take great pride in rummaging in the bargain basement and still coming up with Vardy, Mahrez, Kante, etc. He must feel this is his baby and I can't see him giving it up too quickly.
The Fox Covert Posted 17 December 2015 Posted 17 December 2015 Agree with Flair. Arsenal probably want somebody to replace Brian MacDermott, who is set to return to Reading as manager. MacDermott has been a scout at Arsenal since he was sacked by Cellino at Leeds United last year.
cc_star Posted 17 December 2015 Posted 17 December 2015 You'd have thought Walsh's insistence over signing Kante alone, would see Ranieri doing everything in his power to keep him. The machine will still go on but losing such an important cog could see us lose a vital link to greatness, scouting & recruitment isn't just about player's ability but also potential, attitude, life choices etc & etc
Vardinio'sCat Posted 17 December 2015 Posted 17 December 2015 That view is completely antithetical to why this club has become successful (en large part thanks to Nigel's forward-looking thinking). We *should* worry about losing these types of personnel. Obviously, you can replace smart people with smart people, but you can only do that for so long before you make a mistake and/or experience a drop-off. LCFC Analysis is WAY ahead of the curve, and that leads to more effective scouting b/c there's a symbiotic relationship between the technical side that this club is so great at and field scouting. It's nice to know that this club is progressive and using every edge it can to turn undervalued assets into our stars. How else do you think Albrighton was targeted? Or Kante? Couldn't agree more. There is this book called Moneyball, everyone should read it. Data, and its efficient use, is fundamental to modern football success.
SemperEadem Posted 15 January 2016 Posted 15 January 2016 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3401536/Arsenal-set-overhaul-recruitment-Leicester-scouts-wanted-list.html
yorkie1999 Posted 15 January 2016 Posted 15 January 2016 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3401536/Arsenal-set-overhaul-recruitment-Leicester-scouts-wanted-list.html Walsh would want steve rowleys job, but that's not going to happen.
st albans fox Posted 15 January 2016 Posted 15 January 2016 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3401536/Arsenal-set-overhaul-recruitment-Leicester-scouts-wanted-list.html i thought he (ben) was already on gardening leave on his way to london colney
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