Leicesterpool Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 I'm convinced it's down to the coaching methods in this country. Our mentality seems to be to retain possesion at all costs. This stops us from trying different things to break rigid opposition down I agree this obsession we have retaining possession I think his ruining England's chances of ever winning anything. Are players are just not lot allowed to play with freedom. Vardy for example is getting instructions the complete opposite of what he gets at Leicester.
Parafox Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 It was all about whether we'd take the gamble last night, Hodgson obviously didn't think it was worth the risk to lose the game by opening things up. We played 'safe' and hoped we'd nick it. This. If England had, as so many here want, been attacking, thrusting forward, leaving gaps in midfield and a shaky defence behind them and Slovakia had countered and scored a "lucky" one and then put all 10 behind the ball for the rest of the game, shutting England out, we'd be third and shitting it even more. Fair enough, Hodgson is dull and uninspiring and his play in the groups has been just that. I hope and believe this will change. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, so what? It's not just about the manager. The players need to step up. Would you actually preferred it if we had pressed and lost? There's always that risk and last night it wasn't worth taking.
Guest Col city fan Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 I'm convinced it's down to the coaching methods in this country. Our mentality seems to be to retain possesion at all costs. This stops us from trying different things to break rigid opposition down Interesting The reality is that, even at youth level, the emphasis is actually still on playing a fast and strong lump up front, and launching it long for him (and others) to run onto. Go down to the academy at City and watch how the youth teams play. The emphasis is on playing quick and direct football, using the bigger, more physical lads and hitting them early. That's what I've seen. There isn't really much emphasis on skill, retaining possession and playing 'ticky tacky' football (or whatever it's called). Compare this to say, the Spanish who DO favour smaller, more skillful kids and the comparison, even now, is absolutely clear.. The bizarre thing is that we teach our young players one style (mainly), then ask them to play in a completely different way in international tournaments. You could see that our lads last night were confused. They didn't really know what they were doing to try to unlock the defence. So they went sideways. But not sideways in a 'Spanish' way (with incision), but sideways because they couldn't play their natural game...and that is STILL a direct brand of football. Leicester won the league last season playing in a typically English way. Yet we don't praise this style and embrace it at international level. Bringing on Andy Carroll last night to be fed by Marc Albrighton would have had FAR more of a chance of us scoring when we needed to than the indecisive, confused display of last night.
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 https://www.theguardian.com/football/picture/2016/jun/21/david-squires-cartoon-euro-2016-group-matches Be warned - if you've not seen one of David Squires strips before, you'll end up searching back quite a few (but it's well worth it).
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Would you agree despite us in your opinion this being a disappointing tournament from England so far, that we've still got good a team and set off players, that are just being played wrong? or would say this crap overrated squad ran by a crap manager? They're being poorly coached in formations Hodgson has never really used before. He's also got far too many of the same type of player, i.e. that attacking, floaty central midfielder - he has Alli, Rooney, Lallana, Sterling, Barkley - yet in terms of wide options he has Sterling, who's confidence has now been shot, plus Milner and Lallana at a push. After that you're looking at strikers - who are not a natural fit. The other problem we have is the shape that they're being asked to play is too rigid - the players take their positions and don't venture from that shape to any real degree, there's no interchange - the only players that can really move is the fullbacks. In fact, one of the key signs of how poorly coached they are is our woeful corners - there seems to be no real plan with them.
foxfanazer Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Interesting The reality is that, even at youth level, the emphasis is actually still on playing a fast and strong lump up front, and launching it long for him (and others) to run onto. Go down to the academy at City and watch how the youth teams play. The emphasis is on playing quick and direct football, using the bigger, more physical lads and hitting them early. That's what I've seen. There isn't really much emphasis on skill, retaining possession and playing 'ticky tacky' football (or whatever it's called). Compare this to say, the Spanish who DO favour smaller, more skillful kids and the comparison, even now, is absolutely clear.. The bizarre thing is that we teach our young players one style (mainly), then ask them to play in a completely different way in international tournaments. You could see that our lads last night were confused. They didn't really know what they were doing to try to unlock the defence. So they went sideways. But not sideways in a 'Spanish' way (with incision), but sideways because they couldn't play their natural game...and that is STILL a direct brand of football. Leicester won the league last season playing in a typically English way. Yet we don't praise this style and embrace it at international level. Bringing on Andy Carroll last night to be fed by Marc Albrighton would have had FAR more of a chance of us scoring when we needed to than the indecisive, confused display of last night. I swear you follow me around just to disagree with me
Fox92 Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Not sure where this myth has come from that Rooney was good in the first 2 games. It's almost as if one idiot on tv has said it and everyone has just gone along with it. His passing has been very erratic and rarely effective. He's got energy, that's it. Compare him to the way Drinkwater uses the ball for us and it's just no contest. There is a reason why one won the league and one was criticised all season whilst playing for a team that finished 5th. It was no fluke and it's all going to form. People realise that in these first 2 games we played we couldn't beat Russia only beat Wales in the last minute, right? The way they are talking it's like Rooney inspired us to 5-0 wins. We've been dogshit, accept it. Dunno what you've been watching. He's the only midfielder that picks up the ball and actually tries to make something happen. You've got a weird stigma against him, nobody is saying he would inspire us to 5-0 wins just that he's been our best player.
Guest Col city fan Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 I swear you follow me around just to disagree with me Not at all mate. You just aren't right on this. Go and watch some academy football. They'd all still rather play a 'Lukaku' than an 'Iniesta'.I can count on one hand the number of really good, young, ball playing, creative midfielders coming through any of the youth ranks. When did we last have one in the England team, yet the England team demands we play in this way? It's almost as though playing a quick and direct brand of attacking football is somehow taboo at International level.
foxfanazer Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Not at all mate. You just aren't right on this. Go and watch some academy football. They'd all still rather play a 'Lukaku' than an 'Iniesta'. I can count on one finger the number of really good, young, ball playing, creative midfielders coming through any of the youth ranks. When did we last have one in the England team, yet the England team demands we play in this way? It's almost as though playing a quick and direct brand of attacking football is somehow taboo at International level. but you're talking grassroots football whereas I'm talking about the current crop of English internationals. Even for their clubs you can spot that they are always searching for the easy ball
Dodgy Bob Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 This. If England had, as so many here want, been attacking, thrusting forward, leaving gaps in midfield and a shaky defence behind them and Slovakia had countered and scored a "lucky" one and then put all 10 behind the ball for the rest of the game, shutting England out, we'd be third and shitting it even more. Fair enough, Hodgson is dull and uninspiring and his play in the groups has been just that. I hope and believe this will change. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, so what? It's not just about the manager. The players need to step up. Would you actually preferred it if we had pressed and lost? There's always that risk and last night it wasn't worth taking. Nonsense. If Hodgson was all about safely qualifying last night he wouldn't have rested six of his favourite players. "We weren't trying to win" is a ludicrous cop out. Of course we were trying to win, we were desperate to win to top the group but simply weren't good enough. In fact we were awful.
Dodgy Bob Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 I think in the end the worst thing about last night is how badly Hodgson wasted the opportunity to work out his best team. I know you don't need to peak in the group stage but you do need to peak at some point, and to do that you need to know your best team. Last night was the ideal opportunity to refine the line up that beat Wales 2-0 in the 2nd half. Instead Hodgson made wholesale changes and now, well into his 5th year in charge and with a knockout game approaching, he is STILL non the wiser as to what his best team is. It's the worst display of international football management I've ever seen.
The Year Of The Fox Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Interesting The reality is that, even at youth level, the emphasis is actually still on playing a fast and strong lump up front, and launching it long for him (and others) to run onto. Go down to the academy at City and watch how the youth teams play. The emphasis is on playing quick and direct football, using the bigger, more physical lads and hitting them early. That's what I've seen. There isn't really much emphasis on skill, retaining possession and playing 'ticky tacky' football (or whatever it's called). Compare this to say, the Spanish who DO favour smaller, more skillful kids and the comparison, even now, is absolutely clear.. The bizarre thing is that we teach our young players one style (mainly), then ask them to play in a completely different way in international tournaments. You could see that our lads last night were confused. They didn't really know what they were doing to try to unlock the defence. So they went sideways. But not sideways in a 'Spanish' way (with incision), but sideways because they couldn't play their natural game...and that is STILL a direct brand of football. Leicester won the league last season playing in a typically English way. Yet we don't praise this style and embrace it at international level. Bringing on Andy Carroll last night to be fed by Marc Albrighton would have had FAR more of a chance of us scoring when we needed to than the indecisive, confused display of last night. Interesting The reality is that, even at youth level, the emphasis is actually still on playing a fast and strong lump up front, and launching it long for him (and others) to run onto. Go down to the academy at City and watch how the youth teams play. The emphasis is on playing quick and direct football, using the bigger, more physical lads and hitting them early. That's what I've seen. There isn't really much emphasis on skill, retaining possession and playing 'ticky tacky' football (or whatever it's called). Compare this to say, the Spanish who DO favour smaller, more skillful kids and the comparison, even now, is absolutely clear.. The bizarre thing is that we teach our young players one style (mainly), then ask them to play in a completely different way in international tournaments. You could see that our lads last night were confused. They didn't really know what they were doing to try to unlock the defence. So they went sideways. But not sideways in a 'Spanish' way (with incision), but sideways because they couldn't play their natural game...and that is STILL a direct brand of football. Leicester won the league last season playing in a typically English way. Yet we don't praise this style and embrace it at international level. Bringing on Andy Carroll last night to be fed by Marc Albrighton would have had FAR more of a chance of us scoring when we needed to than the indecisive, confused display of last night. Good post Col. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. It doesn't matter how we play football- Barcelona style or Leicester style. It matters whether it's effective. Hodgson and pretty much any manager we've had since Hoddle has been ineffective. It was painfully obvious around Christmas time that he should've binned his crap philosophy and played the England games from February onwards with a side and squad that got the most out of England's strongest asset- pace. Unfortunately he's selected a squad to suit his philosophy rather than a squad that would be dangerous. It wouldn't matter to me if a big named player hadn't been selected (it's not fair to mention Rooney really as he's having a good tournament) Look at Ranieri last season- he never really had a reputation of bringing in fast flowing exciting football before coming to us (I don't think) It would've been all too easy to have forced the squad he had to adapt to an Italian style of play, but he saw our assets and potential and changed his methods to suit them accordingly. Until an England manager does the same we'll always be shit
purpleronnie Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 I just hope we don't continue this manager merry-go-round. Only in England is it all the managers fault and we'll ok once we have a new one. The root of the problem goes much deeper and hasn't been addressed and is unlikely ever to be.
The Year Of The Fox Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 I just hope we don't continue this manager merry-go-round. Only in England is it all the managers fault and we'll ok once we have a new one. The root of the problem goes much deeper and hasn't been addressed and is unlikely ever to be. I really don't think the problem is that deep. The blame has to go to the manager for not selecting and utilising English players properly
Guest Col city fan Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Good post Col. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. It doesn't matter how we play football- Barcelona style or Leicester style. It matters whether it's effective. Hodgson and pretty much any manager we've had since Hoddle has been ineffective. It was painfully obvious around Christmas time that he should've binned his crap philosophy and played the England games from February onwards with a side and squad that got the most out of England's strongest asset- pace. Unfortunately he's selected a squad to suit his philosophy rather than a squad that would be dangerous. It wouldn't matter to me if a big named player hadn't been selected (it's not fair to mention Rooney really as he's having a good tournament) Look at Ranieri last season- he never really had a reputation of bringing in fast flowing exciting football before coming to us (I don't think) It would've been all too easy to have forced the squad he had to adapt to an Italian style of play, but he saw our assets and potential and changed his methods to suit them accordingly. Until an England manager does the same we'll always be shit Great post..you are spot on. Hodgson has gone 'philosophy first'...he's decided on how we should play and attempted to fit the players into that philosophy. That's actually what Sven did at Leicester. Ranieri has carefully studied the players at his disposal and adopted a style of play to best fit them. To devastating effect of course. When you have the likes of Vardy, completely redundant in that 2nd half last night, you know it's all arse about face. The ONLY time that Vardy looked like scoring was when we played how Vardy plays...and he was through one to one with Skrtel and maybe should have finished the chance. That's about the system..end of...it's not about whether Vardy is on form or not (we know he is)..it's about how Woy sets us up
purpleronnie Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 I really don't think the problem is that deep. The blame has to go to the manager for not selecting and utilising English players properly Yesterday I think Roy got it wrong, but it seems everytime we fail its the manager, we do it every tournament, then we get a new manager and fail again...its the manager again...time to wake up. Of course both points become moot if we actually do well.
HighPeakFox Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 I partially agree with everyone. One of the other problems is that expectations get raised unrealistically, and we generally hope it will work like clockwork, despite logic suggesting otherwise. I'm not a fierce patriot, so am able to watch England in a slightly less impassioned way. The first half was pretty decent last night and the team isn't being lucky in front of goal. I blame nobody for being disappointed today, for various reasons, but generally people over react and miss the positives, of which there were plenty.
Beliall Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 I partially agree with everyone. One of the other problems is that expectations get raised unrealistically, and we generally hope it will work like clockwork, despite logic suggesting otherwise. I'm not a fierce patriot, so am able to watch England in a slightly less impassioned way. The first half was pretty decent last night and the team isn't being lucky in front of goal. I blame nobody for being disappointed today, for various reasons, but generally people over react and miss the positives, of which there were plenty. Thanks Roy
Leicesterpool Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Yesterday I think Roy got it wrong, but it seems everytime we fail its the manager, we do it every tournament, then we get a new manager and fail again...its the manager again...time to wake up. Of course both points become moot if we actually do well. The disaster of the South Africa world cup in 2010, the fans turned on players rather than the manager. I think Woy is disliked so much is because of the playing style, a manager gets respected more when his team as a go and attacks. Of course players need to take some of the blame but it's up to manager to motivate them.
The Year Of The Fox Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Yesterday I think Roy got it wrong, but it seems everytime we fail its the manager, we do it every tournament, then we get a new manager and fail again...its the manager again...time to wake up. Of course both points become moot if we actually do well. You're probably right when thinking of managers gone by when we had our 'golden generation' of players- Pundits could discuss what went wrong and why we didn't win anything with that crop for decades and they'd still never come close to working out why we failed. This squad with Hodgson though is different. We don't have a world class player in every position as we did 10 years ago. So it becomes much more about working out what the English players at his disposal can offer you (which again is pace) and then utilising it to the best of your ability. Roy seems unwilling to realise we haven't got the players to play how he wants us to, and even if we did it's a pretty boring style of football to watch and nowhere near as effective as say Leicester's style last season. The buck stops with Roy on this one IMO
HighPeakFox Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Thanks Roy I'm not sure being c***y adds much to this discussion
CosbehFox Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 I just hope we don't continue this manager merry-go-round. Only in England is it all the managers fault and we'll ok once we have a new one. The root of the problem goes much deeper and hasn't been addressed and is unlikely ever to be. Merry go round? Hodgson has had three tournaments far more than most. In those three tournaments, we've won three games. Sweden, Ukraine and Wales. What a set of teams to see off
The Year Of The Fox Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 Roys the only manager in our history to take us to two Euro competitions
Guest Col city fan Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 You're probably right when thinking of managers gone by when we had our 'golden generation' of players- Pundits could discuss what went wrong and why we didn't win anything with that crop for decades and they'd still never come close to working out why we failed. This squad with Hodgson though is different. We don't have a world class player in every position as we did 10 years ago. So it becomes much more about working out what the English players at his disposal can offer you (which again is pace) and then utilising it to the best of your ability. Roy seems unwilling to realise we haven't got the players to play how he wants us to, and even if we did it's a pretty boring style of football to watch and nowhere near as effective as say Leicester's style last season. The buck stops with Roy on this one IMO Again, dead right. Of course the buck stops with Hodgson...he picks the squad, he sets us up. Of course, blame can also be laid at the feet of the players for missing chances, but hey...players will miss chances. However, given a few chances, it's likely one of them will be taken. I can literally think of one single good chance that Vardy had last night. Compare that with when he plays for City....in an average game this season, I suspect he'll get between 5 to 10 opportunities. And can people stop giving all this crap about Slovakia 'parking the bus'.. of course they did! It's then up to us to set up to break them down. I believe that Hodgson is so scared of losing that his mindset has become defensive. Keep it tight them try to nab one. The way he sets his teams up reflects him as a person, I'd imagine. The bloody shame of it is this...we ARE NOT A BAD SIDE...but with some real creativity and going for the jugular I think we could be a really good side! Woy...stop thinking about your job and release the shackles.
filbertway Posted 21 June 2016 Posted 21 June 2016 I wish England would play like we did against Bournemouth when they sat narrow and deep. We'd be swimming in goals!
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