General Election, June 8th

[Buce]

17 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah absolutely, you have to remember as well sometimes those going into care homes do not have decision making capacity. We know the things my grandma likes and we spent as much as we could afford for her to have as many of the those things as possible. The incentive shouldn't be to do things on the cheap for frightened and confused people and this policy forces that. 

Ive spoke in detail to you before about this Alf and I have spent the last 18 months of my spare time, fundraising for charities that support social care and terminally I'll people. I'm glad the tories are backtracking on this but the damage is done.

 

Meh, they're not backtracking, Strokes - vague suggestions of a consultation, waaaaaaay after the election.

[Rincewind]

Who's to say they won't bring it in after the election anyway? After all they are expecting to win by a bigger majority enabling them to bring in harsher policies which will be a lot easier o implement. I fear for the most vulnerable in the next few years. Is there anyone else they can hit? 

It could be you next.

[Alf Bentley]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah absolutely, you have to remember as well sometimes those going into care homes do not have decision making capacity. We know the things my grandma likes and we spent as much as we could afford for her to have as many of the those things as possible. The incentive shouldn't be to do things on the cheap for frightened and confused people and this policy forces that. 

Ive spoke in detail to you before about this Alf and I have spent the last 18 months of my spare time, fundraising for charities that support social care and terminally I'll people. I'm glad the tories are backtracking on this but the damage is done.

 

Yes, I remember you talking about your Grandma's situation. You've now made me feel guilty that I've not spent recent months fundraising for charities....but there's been an awful lot of other stuff going on.

 

When the Tories ditched the triple lock on pensions and jettisoned the guarantee of no tax rises, it seemed like sound electoral politics - a message that sacrifices and flexibility would be needed in potentially difficult times, and a message they could afford to give electorally because of their big poll lead. This care policy is something else altogether....

[Strokes]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Meh, they're not backtracking, Strokes - Vague suggestions of a consultation, waaaaaaay after the election.

I'm only going off what I read in here buce, like I say it's not enough for me. I know it's dubbed the dementia tax but it's worse than that, people need social care for all sorts of reasons and this would hit all the people that would be core Tory supporters. She needs to resign!

[Buce]

17 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah absolutely, you have to remember as well sometimes those going into care homes do not have decision making capacity. We know the things my grandma likes and we spent as much as we could afford for her to have as many of the those things as possible. The incentive shouldn't be to do things on the cheap for frightened and confused people and this policy forces that. 

Ive spoke in detail to you before about this Alf and I have spent the last 18 months of my spare time, fundraising for charities that support social care and terminally I'll people. I'm glad the tories are backtracking on this but the damage is done.

 

Why don't you ask on here when you're fundraising?

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Yes, I remember you talking about your Grandma's situation. You've now made me feel guilty that I've not spent recent months fundraising for charities....but there's been an awful lot of other stuff going on.

 

When the Tories ditched the triple lock on pensions and jettisoned the guarantee of no tax rises, it seemed like sound electoral politics - a message that sacrifices and flexibility would be needed in potentially difficult times, and a message they could afford to give electorally because of their big poll lead. This care policy is something else altogether....

Not intentionally I swear.

Ive never been a hugely charitable person myself and I only got into it because I felt utterly helpless/hopeless elsewhere but it has been very rewarding nevertheless and something I plan to continue.

[Strokes]

Just now, Buce said:

 

Why don't you ask on here when you're fundraising?

I did mention it but I guess I'm a little to humble to push to hard .

check the LOROS thread.

[Buce]

Just now, Strokes said:

I did mention it but I guess I'm a little to humble to push to hard .

check the LOROS thread.

 

I didn't know there was one - maybe in GC it would get seen by more people?

 

 

[Guest]

George Osborne is giving May a right kicking! 

 

 

 

[RobHawk]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

George Osborne is giving May a right kicking! 

 

 

 

He's loving putting the boot in! 

[Alf Bentley]

9 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Meh, they're not backtracking, Strokes - vague suggestions of a consultation, waaaaaaay after the election.

 

There's a history to this. At the 2015 election they had a pledge to introduce a £70k cap on care spending per person. That was ditched immediately after the election. The govt said councils were telling them that they couldn't fund all the extra care payments (mainly to care/nursing homes) without substantial funding increases. So, if they come up with a generous figure for a cap before the election, they'll also have to find an extra few billion down the side of the sofa. Easier to weather the storm, wait for the electoral campaign to move on to other issues, then after the election ditch the cap or introduce a much less generous cap due to "changes in economic circumstances".....call me cynical, if you like!

[Rincewind]

Just common sense crystal-balling Alf

[Jon the Hat]

1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Yes, I remember you talking about your Grandma's situation. You've now made me feel guilty that I've not spent recent months fundraising for charities....but there's been an awful lot of other stuff going on.

 

When the Tories ditched the triple lock on pensions and jettisoned the guarantee of no tax rises, it seemed like sound electoral politics - a message that sacrifices and flexibility would be needed in potentially difficult times, and a message they could afford to give electorally because of their big poll lead. This care policy is something else altogether....

Agreed.

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, RobHawk said:

Its exactly what it is though. I'd love to know the thoughts of some of our more right leaning posters. I'm still an undecided lefty, so it would have been highly unlikely i'd have voted Tory anyway - but i just can't see the appeal in Theresa May or her manifesto - and now things seem to be unravelling ans showing her true self its even worse. 

What do you Tory fans think though?

I think the social care policy, while perhaps admirable in its intent - to make people pay for themselves if they can afford to - hasn't really been thought through.  This is presumably what happens when you tell everyone you won't call an election and then change your mind.  They were clearly not prepared, and though this was something they could just drop in.

 

I don't like the almost presidential approach TM has taken to the campaign, and I don't like the apparent end of compassionate conservatism we have seen in recent years.  I am starting to pine for the days of coalition, when my liberal economic instincts and social conscience were being largely sated at the same time. 

[Jon the Hat]

57 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

There's a history to this. At the 2015 election they had a pledge to introduce a £70k cap on care spending per person. That was ditched immediately after the election. The govt said councils were telling them that they couldn't fund all the extra care payments (mainly to care/nursing homes) without substantial funding increases. So, if they come up with a generous figure for a cap before the election, they'll also have to find an extra few billion down the side of the sofa. Easier to weather the storm, wait for the electoral campaign to move on to other issues, then after the election ditch the cap or introduce a much less generous cap due to "changes in economic circumstances".....call me cynical, if you like!

Well if you think about it they must have already include the borrowing in their thinking if they were not going to start charging people until after they died to repay it.  They just can't repay it now, so you have in effect a nice big increase in social care funding through the back door!  Everyone is a winner, except T May credibility.

[RobHawk]

1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said:

I think the social care policy, while perhaps admirable in its intent - to make people pay for themselves if they can afford to - hasn't really been thought through.  This is presumably what happens when you tell everyone you won't call an election and then change your mind.  They were clearly not prepared, and though this was something they could just drop in.

 

I don't like the almost presidential approach TM has taken to the campaign, and I don't like the apparent end of compassionate conservatism we have seen in recent years.  I am starting to pine for the days of coalition, when my liberal economic instincts and social conscience were being largely sated at the same time. 

Fair enough! Really interesting response i would guess would be mirrored by many. What will be really interesting to see is if this has any further fallout at the polls - It really should but i guess it won't make too much of a difference. Too many people are too disenfranchised with whats actually going on. The difference could only really come about if the press continue to punish TM, which may well depend on how she handles the next few days. 

[Buce]

5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I think the social care policy, while perhaps admirable in its intent - to make people pay for themselves if they can afford to - hasn't really been thought through.  This is presumably what happens when you tell everyone you won't call an election and then change your mind.  They were clearly not prepared, and though this was something they could just drop in.

 

I don't like the almost presidential approach TM has taken to the campaign, and I don't like the apparent end of compassionate conservatism we have seen in recent years.  I am starting to pine for the days of coalition, when my liberal economic instincts and social conscience were being largely sated at the same time. 

 

I must have missed that.

[Stadt]

A centre-left Labour part would probably be in muchh closer contention currently than Corbyn's Labour party. I've always been marginally more right leaning than left but there's no way I'm voting for the Tories because their policies don't even seem to be maintaining the status quo but instead they seem regressive. However fundamentally Labour's policies don't align with my own views, I'll be spoiling my ballot.

[Sharpe's Fox]

11 minutes ago, Wookie said:

A centre-left Labour part would probably be in muchh closer contention currently than Corbyn's Labour party. 

Not on the evidence of social-democratic parties across Europe. The Socialist Party polled 6% in France, Melenchon got 20%. The Labour Party needed to sever Blairism completely to have a hope of surviving because Neo-liberalism is a rotting  corpse now and if you still inhabit it you degrade along with it.

[Jon the Hat]

29 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I must have missed that.

  it's all relative.  Like I said i rather liked the Coalition.

[Lionator]

An incredible swing in Wales, I wonder what effect this would have on the overall outcome if similar patterns happened throughout England?

[Webbo]

7 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

Something that actually links him to murder before saying he supports murder rather than protesting, attending a rally and being arrested?

 

I really thought you were better than this Webbo... 

 

 

I never said he murdered anyone, just that he was a supporter of the IRA, who are murderers.

[Webbo]

7 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Theresa May on fox hunting (less than 2 weeks ago):  “As it happens, personally I have always been in favour of fox hunting, and we maintain our commitment, we have had a commitment previously as a Conservative Party, to allow a free vote".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-fox-hunting-bring-back-ban-repeal-conservative-tories-general-election-rural-vote-a7726506.html

So, the Tory Party supports a free vote - but May herself supports fox hunting....and it's the Theresa May Party standing for election, isn't it?

 

Technically, unless you have evidence, claiming that "Corbyn supports kneecapping" could constitute a crime of defamation. Even the Mail doesn't sink that low.

I assume that Corbyn supported Troops Out (of N. Ireland), a united Ireland, fair trials and political status for IRA terrorists etc. 

(To introduce a bit of levity, what are "Irish Chatholics"? Are they Irish people who spend all day posting in General Chat? Gaelic Fox, I'm looking at you!)

 

It seems Corbyn was arrested (but not charged) for obstruction outside a court, protesting for a fair trial for various people - including someone who was SUBSEQUENTLY convicted of terrorism (i.e. he was "innocent until proven guilty" at the time). That hardly constitutes "support for kneecapping". Some context, too: this was when numerous completely innocent Irish people (Guildford 4, Birmingham 6), subsequently exonerated, were still banged up for years, having been framed by corrupt police & biased courts.

 

Corbyn did have discussions with political Republicans (Sinn Fein) and supported various of their causes - but that doesn't mean he supported criminal violence carried out by its military wing (the IRA).

I appreciate that there is a difference between talking to someone and supporting their causes, but there's also a difference between supporting "the ends" and supporting "the means" of a particular group.

 

Would you condemn Thatcher for negotiating with terrorists - and thereby "supporting kneecapping"? 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/oct/16/northernireland.thatcher

"Margaret Thatcher gave her personal approval to secret talks between government officials and the IRA leadership in 1990, setting in a train a dialogue which led to the Northern Ireland peace process which she now regularly denounces.

In one of her final acts before she was deposed as prime minister, Lady Thatcher allowed her Northern Ireland secretary, Peter Brooke, to talk to republicans through a secret "back channel" after MI5 advised the government that the IRA was looking at ways of ending its terrorist campaign".

 

If Corbyn is to be asked to single out particular groups for condemnation, would you like to condemn the British Army for murdering innocent civilians at Bloody Sunday? Don't mention the IRA, just condemn the Army in isolation? Personally, I condemn anyone who engaged in terrorism or carried out illicit violence, be they IRA, UVF, Army, whoever. When you get into insurgents and soldiers killing one another in action, that's an accepted risk for both parties - with the insurgents also running the risk of imprisonment by the state. You need to decide whether you attack Corbyn as a bloodthirsty supporter of terrorism or a lily-livered pacifist. I'm not sure either is fair, but there's certainly a lot more credibility for the latter accusation.

 

 

 

 

Mrs Thatcher never attended Republican rallies.

[Alf Bentley]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Mrs Thatcher never attended Republican rallies.

 

-1

[Jon the Hat]

What I start to wonder is if, in my grand theory of how the country moves forward sensibly over time due to flips between Tory and Labour Government, whether we arent closer to needing a flip than I thought.  I really hope Labour can move on from Corbyn after this election and be a credible opposition with a view to really holding TMay to account, and being a real threat at the next election, and that this means a more centrist labour party.  Otherwise I am going to have to start thinking PR is a good idea.  And that would be a big shift in my thoughts.