General Election, June 8th

[The Doctor]

38 minutes ago, Webbo said:

You're drawing an equivalent between a democratic govt and a terrorist organization. You're say that supporting a party that voted for war is the same as campaigning for war, the same as deliberately targeting civilians, the same as sharing a platform with criminals. Democratic govt don't kneecap their opponents, they don't  beat people up in there own community.

 

I'm trying to be polite but it's a desperately poor argument.

And by doing so he's giving far too much leeway to the democratic government - to take the moral high ground requires holding yourself to a higher set of standards. Is that compatible with ignoring the warnings given before voting for war, then never admitting you called it wrong? Don't think so.

[a_k_b]

1 hour ago, Brizzle Fox said:

It's almost as if the Tories were finding things so easy that they've tried to make the election more interesting. Love them or hate them they've always been a very slick election fighting machine but the ineptness of this campaign for them so far has been, well very Labour (excepting the Campbell years). Either that or they're so arrogant / confident that they'll win that they've got lazy and just decided the electorate is so thick (possibly a sound tactic after the Euro referendum) that they can do / say whatever they want and everyone will blindly stumble into the voting booth and stick their cross against them anyway.

 

So amateurish that even me a life long Tory is thinking that it would make me feel dirty voting for them this time.

 

I couldn't agree more. I do feel like my usual Tory vote is being taken for granted.

 

may needs to come down from her Ivory tower and try to connect more for the people of this country, not hide from us.

 

fair play to corbyn, he's out performing may in just about every department of his performances so far

 

still cant bring myself to vote labour though

[Alf Bentley]

57 minutes ago, Webbo said:

You're drawing an equivalent between a democratic govt and a terrorist organization. You're say that supporting a party that voted for war is the same as campaigning for war, the same as deliberately targeting civilians, the same as sharing a platform with criminals. Democratic govt don't kneecap their opponents, they don't  beat people up in there own community.

 

I'm trying to be polite but it's a desperately poor argument.

 

I was doing no such thing.

 

I was responding to your post in which you excused the Tories of any responsibility for the Iraq War. I agreed that Bush & Blair were mainly responsible. But I pointed out that it raised question marks over Theresa May's judgment that she believed the "false prospectus" presented by Alistair Campbell and others - when millions of citizens and hundreds of MPs (including some Tories) did NOT believe that prospectus. An opposition has a responsibility to show good judgment as well as a government (and I've criticised this Labour opposition often enough). 

 

Before that, as @Carl the Llama pointed out, I was trying to point out the logical fallacy of your argument that Corbyn having associated with Republicans or campaigned for Troops Out constituted proof of his support for terrorism and knee-capping. The only equivalence that I sought to draw was between that illogical argument and the illogical argument that, because you support the Tories, you support everything that any Tory ever does - such as approving the Iraq invasion.

 

Anyway, as I've said, I'd prefer to discuss the important issues involved in this election (Brexit, economy, tax, public services, care, ISIS, immigration etc.). So, unless you produce direct quotations of Corbyn supporting IRA terrorism, I'll ignore any further posts on that issue. Given the pending Brexit negotiations and their potential consequences, this is a massively important election. So, I'd like to move on from Corbyn 80s/90s - and Blair/May 2003.

[Guest MattP]

48 hour hissy fit Buce, good by my standards these days.

 

There is no way really to describe the Tory campaign now as anything but an utter shambles, the idea you can hide away for weeks was fancical in the first place, the idea you can do it and only pop up to shout policies the public hate (fox hunting, non Ivory Ban, a policy even in the right-wing press that can describe as a "dementia tax") from time to time and cruise to victory was ridiculous.

 

If I was cynical I'd think they believe Brexit is going to be so hard they either don't want to do it or want to have such a small majority they can have an excuse, if that is the case she shouldn't have taken the job, give it to Gove or Leadsom.

 

Weirdly they seem happy to fight this election on the NHS and social care which is barmy, they should be drilling home the Brexit point every single day and we should be seeing adverts and billboards with big pictures of Diane Abbott on asking the public if they want to vote this in to run MI5 and Special Branch. Where the **** is Eddie Izzard? On tour. Where is Russell Brand? On tour - one of the first things you should be checking at CCHQ is that these two morons are ready to show themselves in any election campaign you want to win.

 

The first Andrew Neil interview was great, he tore the Conservative manifesto to bits and May didn't really have a clue how to respond, the only positive that came out of it was that she didn't make the massive blunder that gets shared 10million times on Facebook, I imagine Jezza probably will manage that at some point.

 

Amazing to think Neil nearly had a career with the Conservative party, not sure he would have cut through with the wider public but it would have been a joy to behold watching him question a Prime Minister over the box, in fact we should just put Andrew Neil in charge of the EU negotiation, send him in to question Juncker and Barnier with his clipboard.

 

I still expect the Conservatives to win but the damage to May is done beyond repair, she won't be running in 2022 and her standing within the party has been diminished, she's been more Ted Heath than Thatcher.

 

For all the raving about Corbyn and his campaign which hasn't been the disaster we expected had Labour had a decent leader in charge I think they would be heading for victory now after the last week.

 

 

[Realist Guy In The Room]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

48 hour hissy fit Buce, good by my standards these days.

 

There is no way really to describe the Tory campaign now as anything but an utter shambles, the idea you can hide away for weeks was fancical in the first place, the idea you can do it and only pop up to shout policies the public hate (fox hunting, non Ivory Ban, a policy even in the right-wing press that can describe as a "dementia tax") from time to time and cruise to victory was ridiculous.

 

If I was cynical I'd think they believe Brexit is going to be so hard they either don't want to do it or want to have such a small majority they can have an excuse, if that is the case she shouldn't have taken the job, give it to Gove or Leadsom.

 

Weirdly they seem happy to fight this election on the NHS and social care which is barmy, they should be drilling home the Brexit point every single day and we should be seeing adverts and billboards with big pictures of Diane Abbott on asking the public if they want to vote this in to run MI5 and Special Branch. Where the **** is Eddie Izzard? On tour. Where is Russell Brand? On tour - one of the first things you should be checking at CCHQ is that these two morons are ready to show themselves in any election campaign you want to win.

 

The first Andrew Neil interview was great, he tore the Conservative manifesto to bits and May didn't really have a clue how to respond, the only positive that came out of it was that she didn't make the massive blunder that gets shared 10million times on Facebook, I imagine Jezza probably will manage that at some point.

 

Amazing to think Neil nearly had a career with the Conservative party, not sure he would have cut through with the wider public but it would have been a joy to behold watching him question a Prime Minister over the box, in fact we should just put Andrew Neil in charge of the EU negotiation, send him in to question Juncker and Barnier with his clipboard.

 

I still expect the Conservatives to win but the damage to May is done beyond repair, she won't be running in 2022 and her standing within the party has been diminished, she's been more Ted Heath than Thatcher.

 

For all the raving about Corbyn and his campaign which hasn't been the disaster we expected had Labour had a decent leader in charge I think they would be heading for victory now after the last week.

 

 

I think you're bang on.

 

May doesnt want Brexit but doesn't know how to get out of it.  This is screaming of a hatchet job so the blame when it all goes tits up can be deflected.  There's no other explanation in my eyes as to why they're being so unprepared for absolutely everything.

[Buce]

16 minutes ago, MattP said:

48 hour hissy fit Buce, good by my standards these days.

 

There is no way really to describe the Tory campaign now as anything but an utter shambles, the idea you can hide away for weeks was fancical in the first place, the idea you can do it and only pop up to shout policies the public hate (fox hunting, non Ivory Ban, a policy even in the right-wing press that can describe as a "dementia tax") from time to time and cruise to victory was ridiculous.

 

If I was cynical I'd think they believe Brexit is going to be so hard they either don't want to do it or want to have such a small majority they can have an excuse, if that is the case she shouldn't have taken the job, give it to Gove or Leadsom.

 

Weirdly they seem happy to fight this election on the NHS and social care which is barmy, they should be drilling home the Brexit point every single day and we should be seeing adverts and billboards with big pictures of Diane Abbott on asking the public if they want to vote this in to run MI5 and Special Branch. Where the **** is Eddie Izzard? On tour. Where is Russell Brand? On tour - one of the first things you should be checking at CCHQ is that these two morons are ready to show themselves in any election campaign you want to win.

 

The first Andrew Neil interview was great, he tore the Conservative manifesto to bits and May didn't really have a clue how to respond, the only positive that came out of it was that she didn't make the massive blunder that gets shared 10million times on Facebook, I imagine Jezza probably will manage that at some point.

 

Amazing to think Neil nearly had a career with the Conservative party, not sure he would have cut through with the wider public but it would have been a joy to behold watching him question a Prime Minister over the box, in fact we should just put Andrew Neil in charge of the EU negotiation, send him in to question Juncker and Barnier with his clipboard.

 

I still expect the Conservatives to win but the damage to May is done beyond repair, she won't be running in 2022 and her standing within the party has been diminished, she's been more Ted Heath than Thatcher.

 

For all the raving about Corbyn and his campaign which hasn't been the disaster we expected had Labour had a decent leader in charge I think they would be heading for victory now after the last week.

 

 

 

Meh, we all have them.

 

I certainly shouldn't have been the one to cast the first stone.

[Nick]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

You think the IRA and the Blair govt are morally equivalent?

 

No.

 

*Takes breath....

 

I'm concerned that for the past 5 pages you are digging yourself a pit. I know you do not lack the ability to critically reason and reflect on the responses that have been put to your labelling of Corbyn though you seemingly on this occasion are not willing to do so. You have ploughed on with the same 'no smoke without fire' argument without seemingly critically grasping or reflecting on the points being made to you. I get that us lefties annoy you and you are frustrated by us but please bear in mind that the responses to your depictions of Corbyn are being made by people that don't even particularly like, rate or support him......

 

 

[Realist Guy In The Room]

The IRA thing is the most obvious smear campaign i've ever seen.

 

Corbyn has been asked countless times about it and countless times he's made his position clear that violence on any level is not acceptable and peace should always be the main driver.

 

You only have to look at his record on opposition to war to realise thats his position.

[davieG]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39966615

 

Election 2017: What jobs do UK workers actually do?

 

 

 

 

[katieakita]

12 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

 

I'll have a look into it but government ministers can't prosecute people or halt prosecutions (maybe the Home Secretary?). It sounds like whatever happened it will be dealt with by the legal system.

Agreed but when you have more than enough evidence placed on front of you but you choose to ignore what is in front of you and hope it goes away even though clearly there is something very wrong you either become part of the problem or part of the solution. Turning a blind eye to corruption is nothing to be proud of and when the dust settles and they review how well over £2 billion pounds has been spent by serial failures those responsible deserve to be held to account.

[Rincewind]

Is May still leader? Had to laugh at a post on Facebook which said a LBC presenter had had a call from them asking them to stop talking about the 'dementia tax' and someone posted 'Censorship. 

I  don't think they realised the presenter was making a joke.

[Rincewind]

One good thing Corbyn is doing is urging people to register to many of them including me who were apathetic about politics before. He has said it does not matter who you vote for (obbviouslt he would like them to vote for him) I think it was 30-50% of young people did not vote in 2015. The main reason given was 'that it would not make a difference whoever was in. I tend to agree with that given the way things have been in recent years but Corbyn is being brave by offering something different and speaking up for the little man. Utopian it may be but it gives hope instead of the old 'we're all in it together' 

Out of interest are any of the Tory MP's urging young people to register? And do not include they do not need to in your reply.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rincewind said:

One good thing Corbyn is doing is urging people to register to many of them including me who were apathetic about politics before. He has said it does not matter who you vote for (obbviouslt he would like them to vote for him) I think it was 30-50% of young people did not vote in 2015. The main reason given was 'that it would not make a difference whoever was in. I tend to agree with that given the way things have been in recent years but Corbyn is being brave by offering something different and speaking up for the little man. Utopian it may be but it gives hope instead of the old 'we're all in it together' 

Out of interest are any of the Tory MP's urging young people to register? And do not include they do not need to in your reply.

Labour have themselves pointed out that the tory social media feeds etc haven't one asked people to register. It's about 50% of what labour have put out.

Given that old people vote tory and young people (less likely to vote) favour labour according to polling, it's an example of tories putting party before country. 

[Guest MattP]

8 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Labour have themselves pointed out that the tory social media feeds etc haven't one asked people to register. It's about 50% of what labour have put out.

Given that old people vote tory and young people (less likely to vote) favour labour according to polling, it's an example of tories putting party before country. 

Can only speak for my MP Alberto Costa but he did on his Facebook feed. To be honest if someone hasn't bothered to register to vote (even more so in these times where politics has never been more prevelent) then can you really trust them to cast an informed choice come June 8th?

 

It works both ways really, you could argue Labour begging for young people to register even if they don't follow politics is putting party before country because it's a sign of the desperation that they can't convince older people who have seen it all before to trust them to govern.

 

 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, MattP said:

Can only speak for my MP Alberto Costa but he did on his Facebook feed. To be honest if someone hasn't bothered to register to vote (even more so in these times where politics has never been more prevelent) then can you really trust them to cast an informed choice come June 8th?

 

It works both ways really, you could argue Labour begging for young people to register even if they don't follow politics is putting party before country because it's a sign of the desperation that they can't convince older people who have seen it all before to trust them to govern.

 

 

I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the party political point but getting the young to vote would be a good thing. The young are more idealistic than the old and id like to see idealism around issues like the environment affecting the debate more. Im also coming round to the idea that if 16 year olds are expected to pay taxes they should be allowed to vote also. There are plenty of older people that vote despite knowing nothing about what they are voting on. If you could get the young to feel like they had a real say then i actuslly think they're more likely to become politicised and take an interest than many older people for whom politics is just about how much tax they pay. 

[Guest MattP]

My reply was tongue in cheek as well.

 

I have no great desire to try and make the young engage, I see politics as no different to anything else, if you want to take an interest do so, if not I'm not going to force or beg you too, I just think it's a natural thing you start to take an interest in more as you get older and start to look at the wider World and take a proper interest in the news and current affairs.

[Realist Guy In The Room]

18 minutes ago, MattP said:

My reply was tongue in cheek as well.

 

I have no great desire to try and make the young engage, I see politics as no different to anything else, if you want to take an interest do so, if not I'm not going to force or beg you too, I just think it's a natural thing you start to take an interest in more as you get older and start to look at the wider World and take a proper interest in the news and current affairs.

Agree with this.  Vote if you're engaged and have an opinion.

 

That's kind of the problem with the 'old vote'.  You rarely hear someone of a certain age group (over 65), make any kind of sense when talking about how they arrive at their decision.

 

On the local news down here, they interviewed some old boys and one of them said, 'Mrs Thatcher made this country great so i'm voting Conservative'.  Its not the first time

i've heard something like that.

[Rincewind]

Agreed. Like I said people voting has gone down. In that video on a previous page where Corbyn was interviewed by some rapper he said himself he had never voted and encouraged others not to vote because as he said nothing would change. All the parties were not offering anything new.  You get the same old 'The previous Labour/Tory government blah blah blah.

Isn't it a good thing for a politician to understand why people were feeling like this and wanting to change it?

I'm an older voter and certainly not Tory. I was Apolitical for years with a liberal leaning but have no strong political views even if it seems that I do at times. I am more anti tory than pro Lsbour. We really only have a choice between two parties.

[MPH]

Hate to say it but any recent gains from the Labour Party they got after the Tories released their manifesto ( which still wouldn't of been enough to win an election) are probably going to be eaten up by the events in Manchester last night.... it will all be turned back to being about immigration/ Islam/ Brexit again

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, MPH said:

Hate to say it but any recent gains from the Labour Party they got after the Tories released their manifesto ( which still wouldn't of been enough to win an election) are probably going to be eaten up by the events in Manchester last night.... it will all be turned back to being about immigration/ Islam/ Brexit again

 

I think that Matt made a point regarding Jo Cox on the Manchester thread. That didn't have as much effect on the EU referendum as people thought, and with that in mind I don't think what happened last night will have that much of an effect on this forthcoming election either.

[MPH]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I think that Matt made a point regarding Jo Cox on the Manchester thread. That didn't have as much effect on the EU referendum as people thought, and with that in mind I don't think what happened last night will have that much of an effect on this forthcoming election either.

 

 

Not to be disrespectful about Jo... but that was one person... there's 22 confirmed dead and the youngest is an 8 year old girl with most victims belieed to be teens/ children

[Rincewind]

That crossed my mind too. Although they won't need to do anything. There will be plenty of people speaking on their behalf saying we need a strong and stable government to deal with it. Not forgetting emotions will be high.

[Jon the Hat]

4 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

That crossed my mind too. Although they won't need to do anything. There will be plenty of people speaking on their behalf saying we need a strong and stable government to deal with it. Not forgetting emotions will be high.

Where the hell we get one of those before the 8th June us anyone's guess.

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I think that Matt made a point regarding Jo Cox on the Manchester thread. That didn't have as much effect on the EU referendum as people thought, and with that in mind I don't think what happened last night will have that much of an effect on this forthcoming election either.

The more I think about this it's possible if might effect it, we had an election being fought on social care just yesterday and May looking like an idiot twice on TV, today we had Theresa May on TV bringing tears to peoples eyes talking about children being killed and looking, to quote, "strong and stable".

 

if the debate does shifts to national security then that would be a disaster for Labour, they are seen as less competent on that as the Tories are on the NHS, I might be wrong here as it's only from memory but I remember the EU campaign being very respectful for a couple of days and then Farage doing something outrageous and it all went off again on immigration. Then again if campaigning is stopped until the weekend Corbyn avoids his interview with Andrew Neil.

 

Who knows?

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

Not to be disrespectful about Jo... but that was one person... there's 22 confirmed dead and the youngest is an 8 year old girl with most victims belieed to be teens/ children

 

That person was a sitting MP, however.

 

It's certainly possible, though - and if that happens it will be highly distasteful.

 

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

The more I think about this it's possible if might effect it, we had an election being fought on social care just yesterday and May looking like an idiot twice on TV, today we had Theresa May on TV bringing tears to peoples eyes talking about children being killed and looking, to quote, "strong and stable".

 

if the debate does shifts to national security then that would be a disaster for Labour, they are seen as less competent on that as the Tories are on the NHS, I might be wrong here as it's only from memory but I remember the EU campaign being very respectful for a couple of days and then Farage doing something outrageous and it all went off again on immigration. Then again if campaigning is stopped until the weekend Corbyn avoids his interview with Andrew Neil.

 

Who knows?

 

It's a possibility, I guess - but like you said, who knows? We're going to have to wait and see.