Harry - LCFC Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 17 minutes ago, Callabinho said: 22 people go to a concert and don't return. It's unacceptable. A demonstration of pure evil. Unfortunately being known to police isn't enough to stop these people, in what capacity were they known? In an ideal world anyone who displays an interest in terrorism would be incarcerated, however such is the way of the CPS it needs to be beyond all reasonable doubt that there conspiring to commit a terror related offence. It needs to change, it's a bald and possible Ill thought way of thinking, but 22 people dead..at a concert...children, families......when you boil it down the the basic facts the risk of loosing multiple people for the sake of hard evidence surely should be considered.... As Jon says, this would not be at all good for society. We'd all be living in fear knowing that any moderate suspicion against us would lead to us being locked away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 IS claimed it. As ever they don't name the bomber, so probably utter shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 5 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: If they push the election back a month the Tories may just lose... That is why they won't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendal Fox Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 9 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: No no no no no. Our whole notion of justice would be in ruins if you follow this logic. Callabinho has a good point - There are people who have been incarcerated for possession of child pornography but have not committed a sex act on a child. Are you suggesting they should'nt be locked up either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramboacdc Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 Bomb was a 'home-made device' Posted at12:31 Some more information has emerged about the bomb used by the attacker in the Manchester Arena attack. Police have said it was a "home-made" improvised explosive device. Witnesses have told the BBC there were nuts and bolts packed into the bomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 Just now, Kendal Fox said: Callabinho has a good point - There are people who have been incarcerated for possession of child pornography but have not committed a sex act on a child. Are you suggesting they should'nt be locked up either? Last time I looked, possession of that was a crime. Thinking bad things about your country is not. Planning an attack yes of course they would be arrested and go to jail, but if you have no evidence that someone is planning something then you cannot and should not be charging them with anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 1 minute ago, ramboacdc said: Bomb was a 'home-made device' Posted at12:31 Some more information has emerged about the bomb used by the attacker in the Manchester Arena attack. Police have said it was a "home-made" improvised explosive device. Witnesses have told the BBC there were nuts and bolts packed into the bomb. Well its a good thing some of the posters here haven't been my garage, there are pots of nuts and bolts. Should I be in jail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 10 minutes ago, ramboacdc said: i know election campaigning is currently suspended indefinitely and listening to Stephen Pienaar they have to show that "we do not let this stop democracy" but this is a huge attack and emotions will be red raw for a long time. Anyone that comes out and starts campaigning first will be villified. They really should push the election back a month at least in my eyes. No they shouldn't, any politician who tries to do this would be seen as weak and bowing down to terrorism. I wouldn't vote for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramboacdc Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 Just now, Benguin said: No they shouldn't, any politician who tries to do this would be seen as weak and bowing down to terrorism. I wouldn't vote for that. i take that point completly however how can anyone now come out of this and start campaigning again when the whole country is going to be mourning for these people will not look good on anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendal Fox Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 3 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: Last time I looked, possession of that was a crime. Thinking bad things about your country is not. Planning an attack yes of course they would be arrested and go to jail, but if you have no evidence that someone is planning something then you cannot and should not be charging them with anything. But often, extremist sympathisers do have footage of executions saved to their PC hard drives, DIY videos on weaponry, etc just like a paedophile might have child porn saved to theirs. That's a bit more than "thinking bad things about your country". He has a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 14 minutes ago, ramboacdc said: i know election campaigning is currently suspended indefinitely and listening to Stephen Pienaar they have to show that "we do not let this stop democracy" but this is a huge attack and emotions will be red raw for a long time. Anyone that comes out and starts campaigning first will be villified. They really should push the election back a month at least in my eyes. It is a horrible attack, and of course life changing for those impacted, but be clear that will and should have no insignificant impact on our country, least of all impacting our democratic process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 Is it not the aim of IS to spread fear? By coward I meant the leaders who hide away giving the orders. Even when sending out videos they are hidden and just audio. The actual perpetrators are sad individuals who actually think they will acheive something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 15 minutes ago, ramboacdc said: i know election campaigning is currently suspended indefinitely and listening to Stephen Pienaar they have to show that "we do not let this stop democracy" but this is a huge attack and emotions will be red raw for a long time. Anyone that comes out and starts campaigning first will be villified. They really should push the election back a month at least in my eyes. 12 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: If they push the election back a month the Tories may just lose... People said this when Jo Cox got murdered (I myself though it had destroyed any chance of Leave winning), but come June 8th in the ballot box I doubt anyone will be thinking about this. That's the World. We shouldn't even stop the debate, it should go on as normal, that's showing people you are actually determined to carry on. I want to hear what the politicians intend to do to combat this rather than not talk about it, nothing is more political than acts like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramboacdc Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 Just now, Jon the Hat said: It is a horrible attack, and of course life changing for those impacted, but be clear that will and should have no insignificant impact on our country, least of all impacting our democratic process. a fair point. the campaigns will change drastically from now on, they have to surely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 Just now, Kendal Fox said: But often, extremist sympathisers do have footage of executions saved to their PC hard drives, just like a paedophile might have child porn saved to theirs. That's a bit more than "thinking bad things about your country". He has a point. Then we could look at making it illegal to view or download such material. This is not the same as ignoring due process and subverting the law becuase we don't like the look of someone or who he hangs out with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 2 minutes ago, Kendal Fox said: Callabinho has a good point - There are people who have been incarcerated for possession of child pornography but have not committed a sex act on a child. Are you suggesting they should'nt be locked up either? That doesn't quite add up though. Possession of firearms or vast quantities of ingredients for explosives do get charged. There's plenty of odd people, Muslim or not, who'd look up ISIS videos whether it be some morbid curiosity or journalistic/academic reasons. It would be a total mockery of our justice and a closer comparison would be getting done for paedophilia offences for owning an ice cream van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramboacdc Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 daesh claim responsibility for this now. but they will claim responsibility for everything to hope it raises their profile. for all we know they weren't involved at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 Just now, ramboacdc said: a fair point. the campaigns will change drastically from now on, they have to surely. Why? These people are completely irrelevant, you might want to promise a bit more security funding, but otherwise, this adds nothing to the political debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramboacdc Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 1 minute ago, Jon the Hat said: Why? These people are completely irrelevant, you might want to promise a bit more security funding, but otherwise, this adds nothing to the political debate. whoever comes out looking the strongest leader of the country really. Would you want May leading us in negotiations for EU/at security council meetings to help take out this cell? That question is rhetorical by the way. Not gonna start a political debate in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendal Fox Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 1 minute ago, Finnaldo said: That doesn't quite add up though. Possession of firearms or vast quantities of ingredients for explosives do get charged. There's plenty of odd people, Muslim or not, who'd look up ISIS videos whether it be some morbid curiosity or journalistic/academic reasons. It would be a total mockery of our justice and a closer comparison would be getting done for paedophilia offences for owning an ice cream van. So if someone caught looking up videos of child pornography said they did it out of morbid curiosity or journalistic/academic reasons, they would'nt go to jail? Why are extremist videos of people being murdered in the most agonising, undignified way not as perverted as child pornography? Especially as the person dies? Either that or you're saying you'd rather have your head chopped off than be raped.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 7 minutes ago, ramboacdc said: i take that point completly however how can anyone now come out of this and start campaigning again when the whole country is going to be mourning for these people will not look good on anyone. Without wanting to sound too callous about it, most outside Manchester will wake up tomorrow and not really give it a second thought. As is always the case with this sort of thing, we as a people tend to just carry on regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendal Fox Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: Then we could look at making it illegal to view or download such material. This is not the same as ignoring due process and subverting the law becuase we don't like the look of someone or who he hangs out with. I agree with you there, just as it is illegal to view videos of rape/child pornography. I can't see how people's internet liberty is more important than poor individuals lives/dignity. And I was'nt saying the law should be subverted because we don't like the look of someone. I'm saying it should only be applied if the person has been caught with inciteful material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 8 minutes ago, Finnaldo said: That doesn't quite add up though. Possession of firearms or vast quantities of ingredients for explosives do get charged. There's plenty of odd people, Muslim or not, who'd look up ISIS videos whether it be some morbid curiosity or journalistic/academic reasons. It would be a total mockery of our justice and a closer comparison would be getting done for paedophilia offences for owning an ice cream van. Yep, I quite often download and read "Dabiq" - the IS magazine. It's uncomfortable at times ie reading about the hostages for sale but it really is something. It's a serious read and you learn about the motives for attacks as it is from the horses mouth, which are almost always not what we get told by our own politicians (usual bollocks about "hating our values" etc which is just bluster). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnaldo Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 3 minutes ago, Kendal Fox said: So if someone caught looking up videos of child pornography said they did it out of morbid curiosity or journalistic/academic reasons, they would'nt go to jail? Why are extremist videos of people being murdered in the most agonising, undignified way not as perverted as child pornography? Especially as the person dies? Either that or you're saying you'd rather have your head chopped off than be raped.. I wasn't talking about execution videos as I'm pretty sure they're illegal anyway. I'm talking of the recruitment videos, of which I've seen of BBC news reports/documentaries... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 23 May 2017 Share Posted 23 May 2017 1 minute ago, Kendal Fox said: So if someone caught looking up videos of child pornography said they did it out of morbid curiosity or journalistic/academic reasons, they would'nt go to jail? Why are extremist videos of people being murdered in the most agonising, undignified way not as perverted as child pornography? Especially as the person dies? Either that or you're saying you'd rather have your head chopped off than be raped.. Its really difficult this. The other day in a group chat, someone posted a video of a beheading. He usually posts videos that end up being some sort of joke or cut to a porn clip so I let the video run for about a minute until I realsied what it was. Later that day he posted another video of some Isis propaganda and then wrote about how ****ed up it is. Everyone on that group chat now has a footprint on their device of watching this stuff. 2 of them are muslims, 1 of which works in Dubai so is frequently flying back and forth from there to the UK. GCHQ will have all that info but what do they do with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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