DJ Barry Hammond Posted 13 July 2018 Author Share Posted 13 July 2018 10 minutes ago, murphy said: Yeah, royal assent. A formality which has not been with held for over 300 years. Come off it. If you have a better idea for the second chamber lets hear it. Second thoughts, do we really want to get into that. Lets just say this. EU democratic yes or no? As democratic as many other forms of democracy. Even if we take issue that the EU council proposes policy and have no elected officials, this role is largely akin to the UK’s civil service, that has the much bigger hand in creating and putting down the finer details of national policy than elected politicians. And if we consider the key key aspect of democracy is in the people having a say... well they do, not only through MEP’s, but through their national governments, interest movements and lobbying groups. The EU structure is easy to criticise on a simple level, but suggesting an effective alternative (getting rid doesn’t count) proves difficult, especially if you want to ensure the EU doesn’t attain a status that makes it stronger than National parliaments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murphy Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 7 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Because the vitriol isn't (largely) towards the US - it's towards Trump and his administration. There is a difference and obfuscation of the two is being used to shoot down any condemnation of Trump as "anti-American". It's entirely possible to be friendly towards a close ally and trading partner for a long-running partnership and respect the office of the leadership of that nation while at the same time making it known that in your opinion the current people are in charge doing things which are unbecoming of a supposedly world-leading state. No. I was quite clear. I was responding to the anti-American rhetoric, not anti-Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murphy Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 6 minutes ago, toddybad said: Are you going to be on the thread for long? I only ask as my eyes hurt from reading bollocks so I'm going to come back when you're not here. Oh no, please stay! No? Well shut the door on the way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 25 minutes ago, murphy said: I was responding to the anti American rhetoric and tone which disgusts me actually, Trump was not mentioned, learn how to read. (1) Now, let me explain to you why the EU is anti-democratic without getting into why the EU has slapped down the democratic goevernments of those countries I have mentioned and the people of Catalonia,(2) Firstly, our MEPs sit in the EU council. The EU commission, of which there is one unelected rep per member state, make the rules. The council the talks about it a bit and then votes it through. It is a conceit, a facade, a sop to democracy. They have zero power. In practical terms , it really couldn't work if it was democratic with 28 national interests. nd you thought that you were making a difference, ticking those boxes. Bless! (3) Turns out I was actually right after all! (4) Anyway, that is why it is undemocratic. Anybody can see that. However, I said it was anti-democratic. Far from respecting the democratic rights of the British public to exercise their right to leave by the EU's own mechanisms, it seeks to make an example of us. To punish and discourage any futher exodus. It seeks to suppress democracy.(5) I was actually proud of this country for standing up and saying no more. We did not vote to be governed by Brussells and whatever the financial cost, we will bear it to regain our borders and sovereignty. We will trade only on the basis of trade. Unfortunatelty our politicians are not so bold.(6) So much confusion and bias in here it's unbelievable. Let's go through it all bit by bit.: (1): What anti-American rhetoric? Far as I can make out you're just being salty over people disagreeing with Trump's actions for whatever reason. (2): You've already been corrected on the Catalonia point and here you are invoking it again, so already it's clear that if anybody here has difficulty learning it's you. But good job on the whole "here's a fact, I don't need to back it up or explain it to you" approach to debate, Alex Jones would be proud. (3): As Alf has explained above, MEPs are not on the Council. This is fundamental stuff which precludes you from being able to have an informed opinion on the democratic nature of the EU if you don't understand it. The "unelected" commission members are chosen by the elected MEPs in Parliament and Council members (the council being the elected heads of each member state), it's called representative democracy. (4): Only if spouting a load of incoherent nonsense about a subject you clearly don't understand with absolute conviction makes you right. Again, Alex Jones would be proud. (5): Why? What can you see that everybody else should be able to? You haven't made a single valid point yet. What you call seeking to make an example of us, any right minded person would call seeking an optimal deal for their side of the agreement, something you seem to be all for Trump doing. Why is it not ok for the EU to do the same? (6): Good old meaningless Brexit rhetoric oh how we love thee. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 1 minute ago, murphy said: No. I was quite clear. I was responding to the anti-American rhetoric, not anti-Trump. Then I think you are mistaken in the intent of the vast majority of the actions being held. This is, for the very greatest part, about Trump and his merry men running the show - not about the US as a whole. If you think some folks are attaching themselves to it just to bash the US then fair enough but AFAIC that's very much the exception rather than the rule here and posters on here as well as the protestors out in the wider community have (mostly) taken great pains to differentiate between the two stances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murphy Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 Ok, for the last time. The anti-American thing was in response to several back slapping and derisory comments about the American market when discussing other markets (go back and read it) as if the US market is all chlorinated chicken and cheap tat rather than Apple,Levis and Microsoft. The tone and ridicule was self evident and Trump was not mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 The problem with the anti Trump / USA argument is that 63 million Americans voted for him and seemingly are glad they did so. It's therefore difficult to blastTrump without indirectly blasting 63 million Americans. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murphy Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 9 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: So much confusion and bias in here it's unbelievable. Let's go through it all bit by bit.: (1): What anti-American rhetoric? Far as I can make out you're just being salty over people disagreeing with Trump's actions for whatever reason. (2): You've already been corrected on the Catalonia point and here you are invoking it again, so already it's clear that if anybody here has difficulty learning it's you. But good job on the whole "here's a fact, I don't need to back it up or explain it to you" approach to debate, Alex Jones would be proud. (3): As Alf has explained above, MEPs are not on the Council. This is fundamental stuff which precludes you from being able to have an informed opinion on the democratic nature of the EU if you don't understand it. The "unelected" commission members are chosen by the elected MEPs in Parliament and Council members (the council being the elected heads of each member state), it's called representative democracy. (4): Only if spouting a load of incoherent nonsense about a subject you clearly don't understand with absolute conviction makes you right. Again, Alex Jones would be proud. (5): Why? What can you see that everybody else should be able to? You haven't made a single valid point yet. What you call seeking to make an example of us, any right minded person would call seeking an optimal deal for their side of the agreement, something you seem to be all for Trump doing. Why is it not ok for the EU to do the same? (6): Good old meaningless Brexit rhetoric oh how we love thee. Well done.. That's me told. Just with a lot of bullet points you can disprove my arguments by simply saying 'rhetoric', 'don't understand', 'incoherent' blah blah blah. Great counter - bravo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 This thread is getting uncannily like the Houses of Parliament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 1 hour ago, davieG said: The problem with the anti Trump / USA argument is that 63 million Americans voted for him and seemingly are glad they did so. It's therefore difficult to blastTrump without indirectly blasting 63 million Americans. 65 million voted for the alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 7 minutes ago, davieG said: The problem with the anti Trump / USA argument is that 63 million Americans voted for him and seemingly are glad they did so. It's therefore difficult to blastTrump without indirectly blasting 63 million Americans. Fewer Americans voted for him than didn’t. I’ve spoken with a number of American friends over the last few days and they tell me that the protests here are largely appreciated and applauded. Trump is ephemeral and we that oppose him will be on the right side of history. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 1 minute ago, murphy said: Ok, for the last time. The anti-American thing was in response to several back slapping and derisory comments about the American market when discussing other markets (go back and read it) as if the US market is all chlorinated chicken and cheap tat rather than Apple,Levis and Microsoft. The tone and ridicule was self evident and Trump was not mentioned. Fair enough, I do think the US market often gets a rough ride on here (wrt food the FDA and USDA aren't that bad at regulating after all), and that's a separate matter from the actions of the current US administration (which are pretty universally awful). No idea why you used Microshaft as an example of a good quality company though Just now, davieG said: The problem with the anti Trump / USA argument is that 63 million Americans voted for him and seemingly are glad the did so. It's therefore difficult to Trump without indirectly blasting 63 million Americans. I'm not sure that every single Trump voter is still glad that they did it, but let's say that they are - that's around 1/4 of the voting population. And, quite frankly, they probably knew what they were voting for and if they can't handle getting called out on an administration that is encouraging casual xenophobia, ignorance of geopolitics and a side order of religious fundamentalism with all the benefits thereof then that's on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 4 minutes ago, murphy said: Well done.. That's me told. Just with a lot of bullet points you can disprove my arguments by simply saying 'rhetoric', 'don't understand', 'incoherent' blah blah blah. Great counter - bravo! Yeah, but he’s right. Tbh, you’re making yourself look a bit foolish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 Just now, Voll Blau said: 65 million voted for the alternative. And? You're still slagging off 63 million Americans. PS I can't stand the bloke and was just pointing out the difficulty of separating the two, there's been a few TV programmes showing plenty of Americans with similar and more extreme views than Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 1 minute ago, murphy said: Ok, for the last time. The anti-American thing was in response to several back slapping and derisory comments about the American market when discussing other markets (go back and read it) as if the US market is all chlorinated chicken and cheap tat rather than Apple,Levis and Microsoft. The tone and ridicule was self evident and Trump was not mentioned. Then you clearly don't understand the subject. Again. Apple, Levis and Microsoft etc. all already trade in the UK because they produce their products to a suitable standard for entry into the EU marketplace. The fact remains that America has a lot of cheap tat too and for Trump to sign a trade agreement with us it's clear that he'll want to secure the chance for American firms to unleash their products which presently fall short of EU standards upon us. Just now, murphy said: Well done.. That's me told. Just with a lot of bullet points you can disprove my arguments by simply saying 'rhetoric', 'don't understand', 'incoherent' blah blah blah. Great counter - bravo! So what do you disagree with? Can you give me any examples to back up the opinions that are being disagreed with? Or are you just going to continue behaving like a child because you've been told you're wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgfualol Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 Most Americans are dumb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieG Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 3 minutes ago, Buce said: Fewer Americans voted for him than didn’t. I’ve spoken with a number of American friends over the last few days and they tell me that the protests here are largely appreciated and applauded. Trump is ephemeral and we that oppose him will be on the right side of history. See my previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 President Juncker off his face again, how is this continually allowed to happen? If any of us kept turning up for work this pissed we would be sacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 5 minutes ago, davieG said: And? You're still slagging off 63 million Americans. PS I can't stand the bloke and was just pointing out the difficulty of separating the two, there's been a few TV programmes showing plenty of Americans with similar and more extreme views than Trump. Hopefully people should be able to differentiate between criticism of actions that are approved of by (perhaps) 1/4 of a nations population and criticism of the entire nation itself, though I agree there's often a lot of generalisation going around. And yeah, most of the Bible Belt is more extreme than Trump tbf. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 2 minutes ago, MattP said: President Juncker off his face again, how is this continually allowed to happen? If any of us kept turning up for work this pissed we would be sacked. Yeah, that's unbecoming tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 57 minutes ago, Buce said: I was suffiently interested to check the ingredients in that, Strokes. I suspect the active ingredient is glucosamine sulphate (the rest can be had from a normal canine diet) which can be bought quite cheaply (I’m assuming Yumove is expensive?). I’ve used GS myself to protect against swollen knees when hiking and can vouch for its efficacy. It costs about £20 a month I think, having the only just found it a few weeks gone I haven’t really done the maths yet. Obviously it’s a small price to pay for his health and happiness but if I can save a bit I’m definitely interested. Thanks I will look into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murphy Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: Then you clearly don't understand the subject. Again. Apple, Levis and Microsoft etc. all already trade in the UK because they produce their products to a suitable standard for entry into the EU marketplace. The fact remains that America has a lot of cheap tat too and for Trump to sign a trade agreement with us it's clear that he'll want to secure the chance for American firms to unleash their products which presently fall short of EU standards upon us. So what do you disagree with? Can you give me any examples to back up the opinions that are being disagreed with? Or are you just going to continue behaving like a child because you've been told you're wrong? Yes and subject to tarrifs. The point is (yet again FFS) that I was responding to the anti American tone, ridicule and rhetoric of that part of the thread. I think it is you that doesn't understand. Edited 13 July 2018 by murphy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, leicsmac said: No idea why you used Microshaft as an example of a good quality company though Or CrApple - biggest pile of over priced hipster shite ever produced. People willing to pay nearly double the price for overpriced outdated hardware in a shiny case with a glowing emblem because it makes the 'look cool' Edited 13 July 2018 by Foxin_mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murphy Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Buce said: Yeah, but he’s right. Tbh, you’re making yourself look a bit foolish. Well you can rely on me. Aside from the EU council/parliament correction which I acknowledge, my points about democracy and how the EU works are correct. The bullet points are basically'no you're wrong, no you're an idiot...blah, blah, blah For instance, my assertion that Brexit was about reclaiming sovereignty was met with the bullet point response of Brexit rhetoric etc. That's no argument at all and I can't be bothered to engage with that. If you think he's right, then so be it. I have not gone into the extended argument of Poland, Hungary, Catalonia etc because going off on that tangent will take up the rest of my life and I've got things to do. I notice that nobody has been able to provide an answer as to why tariiffs could not be subsidised or even paid for by the savings from the EU contribution. Edited 13 July 2018 by murphy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicsmac Posted 13 July 2018 Share Posted 13 July 2018 8 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: Or CrApple - biggest pile of over priced hipster shite ever produced. People willing to pay nearly double the price for overpriced outdated hardware in a shiny case with a glowing emblem because it makes the 'look cool' Yeah, them too. But then eschewing both of those makes me a hipster Linux fanboy so what do I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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