Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[murphy]

3 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

"Rule us or hurt us". Righto...

 

I don't think I could ever be described as being on "the left" as you put it. I've never voted Labour. Voted Scottish Conservative & Unionist last time out.

 

Noteworthy that Farage was on the BBC last night trumpeting the new international set up.

 

Trump was advocating ethnic nationalism in his The Sun article, as well as undermining our Prime Minister, his host.

 

If it's a choice between Trump, Farage and Boris (and some worrying prejudices) on one side and the EU on the other, then for all its faults, I'd pick the EU, thanks.

 

Why would you think that a comment about the left was aimed at you personally?

 

And yes, rule us or hurt us.  The EU seeks to suppress democracy.  You pick the EU?  good for you.  I don't .

[Izzy]

Lets be honest, the main reason Trump is visiting here is for his 10.15 tee time at Turnberry tomorrow.

[Vacamion]

3 minutes ago, murphy said:

Why would you think that a comment about the left was aimed at you personally?

 

And yes, rule us or hurt us.  The EU seeks to suppress democracy.  You pick the EU?  good for you.  I don't .

 

You said that anti Trump feeling came from "the left".

 

I explained that you were not entirely correct with this assertion.

 

Nothing to do with me taking your point personally.

 

And we all remember the EU "suppressing democracy" under its jackboot during the ninety-twelve elections, referenda and other votes we've had in the last five years, don't, we?

 

I mean, I've practically got a season ticket for the polling booth at the local primary school, I'm there that often.

 

Sheesh.

[murphy]

3 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

You said that anti Trump feeling came from "the left".

 

I explained that you were not entirely correct with this assertion.

 

Nothing to do with me taking your point personally.

 

And we all remember the EU "suppressing democracy" under its jackboot during the ninety-twelve elections, referenda and other votes we've had in the last five years, don't, we?

 

I mean, I've practically got a season ticket for the polling booth at the local primary school, I'm there that often.

 

Sheesh.

No I didn't.  I said that vitriol toward the US was symptomatic of the left, which it is.  Are you anti American?

 

I am sorry to hear that you have wasted so much of your life ticking boxes in your local primary school for absolutely no reason whatsoever.  The council has no power and a handful of UK representatives among the masses has even less.  Ask the Catalans, or Hungary, Poland what they think of the EU's attitude to democracy.  And their attitude to Brexit.

 

Sheesh indeed.

[Finnegan]

Have you considered that we'd perhaps have more power and influence in the EU if we took it more seriously and stopped sending notorious euro sceptics and bigots to be MEPs? 

 

I mean you aren't going to get much mileage out of your MEP voting power when you send ****ing Farage are you? 

[Vacamion]

8 minutes ago, murphy said:

No I didn't.  I said that vitriol toward the US was symptomatic of the left, which it is.  Are you anti American?

 

I am sorry to hear that you have wasted so much of your life ticking boxes in your local primary school for absolutely no reason whatsoever.  The council has no power and a handful of UK representatives among the masses has even less.  Ask the Catalans, or Hungary, Poland what they think of the EU's attitude to democracy.  And their attitude to Brexit.

 

Sheesh indeed.

 

No, what a weird thing to ask.

 

I am very fond of America. I go there often. I'm just not so fond of what the current President is up to.

 

The discussion was about Trump. Not all the invective against him comes from the left and it doesn't come from anti-American prejudice, despite your assertions.

 

So you are wrong.

 

The Poles and Hungarians have, notoriously, democratically elected anti European parties into government.

 

Didn't see the Euro-stormtroopers barring the way to polling stations or beating voters to overturn those outcomes, did we?

 

So you are wrong.

 

And Catalonia is a Spanish political issue, not a European one.  It was inhabitants of what is currently Spain fighting around polling stations, not Germans and French.

 

So you are wrong.

 

And I got the "No" to Scottish Independence and the conservatives in government I voted for, so not entirely a waste of my time.

 

So you are wrong.

 

So much wrong in your post.

 

Sheesh back atcha.

 

[Finnegan]

 

 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, murphy said:

It's gross.  I take it that's your dog.

 

Just veering wildly OT for a second, how is he?  Bad knee/cruciate wasn't it?

Yeah cruciate, it’s been a much harder and longer recovery than I expected and we’ve had a few extra problems on the way. Only as near as 4 weeks ago I accepted he would never run again but then found a different over the counter medication that has given him his movement back. It’s been a revaluation.

Yumove, I buy in bulk from amazon and he is now at about 95% pain free.

Thanks for asking.

[murphy]

32 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

No, what a weird thing to ask.

 

I am very fond of America. I go there often. I'm just not so fond of what the current President is up to.

 

The discussion was about Trump. Not all the invective against him comes from the left and it doesn't come from anti-American prejudice, despite your assertions.

 

So you are wrong.

 

The Poles and Hungarians have, notoriously, democratically elected anti European parties into government.

 

Didn't see the Euro-stormtroopers barring the way to polling stations or beating voters to overturn those outcomes, did we?

 

So you are wrong.

 

And Catalonia is a Spanish political issue, not a European one.  It was inhabitants of what is currently Spain fighting around polling stations, not Germans and French.

 

So you are wrong.

 

And I got the "No" to Scottish Independence and the conservatives in government I voted for, so not entirely a waste of my time.

 

So you are wrong.

 

So much wrong in your post.

 

Sheesh back atcha.

 

I was responding to the anti American rhetoric and tone which disgusts me actually, Trump was not mentioned, learn how to read.

 

Now, let me explain to you why the EU is anti-democratic without getting into why the EU has slapped down the democratic goevernments of those countries I have mentioned and the people of Catalonia,

 

Firstly, our MEPs sit in the EU council.  The EU commission, of which there is one unelected rep per member state, make the rules.  The council the talks about it a bit and then votes it through.  It is a conceit, a facade, a sop to democracy.  They have zero power.  In practical terms , it really couldn't work if it was democratic with 28 national interests.  nd you thought that you were making a difference, ticking those boxes.  Bless!

 

Turns out I was actually right after all!

 

Anyway, that is why it is undemocratic.  Anybody can see that.  However, I said it was anti-democratic.  Far from respecting the democratic rights of the British public to exercise their right to leave by the EU's own mechanisms, it seeks to make an example of us.  To punish and discourage any futher exodus.  It seeks to suppress democracy.

 

I was actually proud of this country for standing up and saying no more.  We did not vote to be governed by Brussells and whatever the financial cost, we will bear it to regain our borders and sovereignty.  We will trade only on the basis of trade.  Unfortunatelty our politicians are not so bold.

 

 

[murphy]

54 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

Have you considered that we'd perhaps have more power and influence in the EU if we took it more seriously and stopped sending notorious euro sceptics and bigots to be MEPs? 

 

I mean you aren't going to get much mileage out of your MEP voting power when you send ****ing Farage are you? 

No because the EU council has zero power.  None.

See above and learn something.

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, murphy said:

You lot do realise, don't you, that the US is our single biggest trading nation partner in terms of exports?  And that is despite EU tariffs and trade barriers, so potential to grow significantly.  The EU is 27 countries of course.

 

Fastest growing export markets - Turkey, South Korea and China.

 

I just don't understand the vitriol toward the US.  Just another of then more unpleasant symptoms of the left of which there are legion.

 

I also don't understand the love-in with the vile EU and their determination to rule us or hurt us.  They are not our friends. 

 

 

43% of our exports go to the EU, 13% to the USA. Germany is slightly behind the US, France, Netherlands & Ireland each about half as much as USA.

 

Macclesfield Town could be said to be the fastest-growing football club as they've just returned to the league. Wouldn't make it a good idea for LCFC to bank on making all its signings from Macclesfield.

 

If we lose even a significant minority of our EU trade, to replace it we'd need a very large, very fast increase in trade with large developed or semi-developed nations (US, China, Japan, India) - or a truly astronomical increase in trade with less developed nations, as they currently account for a paltry percentage of our trade.

 

4.2% of our exports currently go to China, 2.2% to Turkey & 1.7% to South Korea. If we lost a quarter of our EU exports, we'd need to double or triple our exports to China, Turkey AND S. Korea to replace them.....how easy's that going to be, when we're competing with nations that are geographically closer to those 3 countries or that have lower costs?

What goods and services will we export to those countries to a massively greater extent? Webbo suggested Scotch whisky (a decent suggestion as it's already a major export, but has its limits). I suggested Gareth Southgate waistcoats to Samoa.

 

Over decades, other nations may become bigger prospects (Brazil, Nigeria, SE Asia etc.). Unfortunately, we don't have a tardis and don't have the option to live in 2050 or 2100 just now.

 

Other countries will be looking after their national interests, not ours. China and Turkey have autocratic, nationalistic governments in different ways. Same applies to the USA. Nobody reasonable has vitriol for the US (top of my bucket list to travel there). What they don't like is the brutal, cynical populist would-be autocrat Trump telling us we should split with the EU to the max. Why would he do that? Same reason as Putin does it....to promote their respective national interests. If we are isolated and not part of the world's most powerful economic bloc (also a significant political player), it will be much easier for the US to shaft the UK so as to promote US economic interests, or for Russia to shaft the UK over diplomatic issues like Novochok attacks.

 

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, murphy said:

 

 

Now, let me explain to you why the EU is anti-democratic without getting into why the EU has slapped down the democratic goevernments of those countries I have mentioned and the people of Catalonia,

 

Firstly, our MEPs sit in the EU council.  The EU commission, of which there is one unelected rep per member state, make the rules.  The council the talks about it a bit and then votes it through.  It is a conceit, a facade, a sop to democracy.  They have zero power.  In practical terms , it really couldn't work if it was democratic with 28 national interests.  nd you thought that you were making a difference, ticking those boxes.  Bless!

 

You're in for a bit of a shock when you find out about these things we have called the "House of Lords" and the "Monarchy"...

[murphy]

1 minute ago, Voll Blau said:

You're in for a bit of a shock when you find out about these things we have called the "House of Lords" and the "Monarchy"...

Yeah, the flippin queen,  Always handing down laws and legislation. 

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

Have you considered that we'd perhaps have more power and influence in the EU if we took it more seriously and stopped sending notorious euro sceptics and bigots to be MEPs? 

 

I mean you aren't going to get much mileage out of your MEP voting power when you send ****ing Farage are you? 

 

5 minutes ago, murphy said:

No because the EU council has zero power.  None.

See above and learn something.

 

MEPs are elected to the European Parliament, not the Council.

 

The European Council comprises the heads of state/govt of the EU nations (May and counterparts) - and is the most powerful political institution in the EU, approving almost every political decision (often in tandem with the EU Parliament).

 

The Council of the EU comprises the respective ministers of the EU nations (e.g. agriculture minister for each EU state).

 

Find a means, somehow, anyhow of learning something. 

[Buce]

39 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Yeah cruciate, it’s been a much harder and longer recovery than I expected and we’ve had a few extra problems on the way. Only as near as 4 weeks ago I accepted he would never run again but then found a different over the counter medication that has given him his movement back. It’s been a revaluation.

Yumove, I buy in bulk from amazon and he is now at about 95% pain free.

Thanks for asking.

 

I was suffiently interested to check the ingredients in that, Strokes. 

 

I suspect the active ingredient is glucosamine sulphate (the rest can be had from a normal canine diet) which can be bought quite cheaply (I’m assuming Yumove is expensive?). 

 

I’ve used GS myself to protect against swollen knees when hiking and can vouch for its efficacy. 

[murphy]

9 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

43% of our exports go to the EU, 13% to the USA. Germany is slightly behind the US, France, Netherlands & Ireland each about half as much as USA.

 

Macclesfield Town could be said to be the fastest-growing football club as they've just returned to the league. Wouldn't make it a good idea for LCFC to bank on making all its signings from Macclesfield.

 

If we lose even a significant minority of our EU trade, to replace it we'd need a very large, very fast increase in trade with large developed or semi-developed nations (US, China, Japan, India) - or a truly astronomical increase in trade with less developed nations, as they currently account for a paltry percentage of our trade.

 

4.2% of our exports currently go to China, 2.2% to Turkey & 1.7% to South Korea. If we lost a quarter of our EU exports, we'd need to double or triple our exports to China, Turkey AND S. Korea to replace them.....how easy's that going to be, when we're competing with nations that are geographically closer to those 3 countries or that have lower costs?

What goods and services will we export to those countries to a massively greater extent? Webbo suggested Scotch whisky (a decent suggestion as it's already a major export, but has its limits). I suggested Gareth Southgate waistcoats to Samoa.

 

Over decades, other nations may become bigger prospects (Brazil, Nigeria, SE Asia etc.). Unfortunately, we don't have a tardis and don't have the option to live in 2050 or 2100 just now.

 

Other countries will be looking after their national interests, not ours. China and Turkey have autocratic, nationalistic governments in different ways. Same applies to the USA. Nobody reasonable has vitriol for the US (top of my bucket list to travel there). What they don't like is the brutal, cynical populist would-be autocrat Trump telling us we should split with the EU to the max. Why would he do that? Same reason as Putin does it....to promote their respective national interests. If we are isolated and not part of the world's most powerful economic bloc (also a significant political player), it will be much easier for the US to shaft the UK so as to promote US economic interests, or for Russia to shaft the UK over diplomatic issues like Novochok attacks.

 

You can argue the point regarding trade, that's fine, however the hole in your argument is that trade between the other 168 countries that are not in the EU is restircted by tarrifs and barriers.  Brexit would give us the power to remove these obstacles and grow those markets.  We can also trade wit the EU in the same way that they do.

[murphy]

3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

MEPs are elected to the European Parliament, not the Council.

 

The European Council comprises the heads of state/govt of the EU nations (May and counterparts) - and is the most powerful political institution in the EU, approving almost every political decision (often in tandem with the EU Parliament).

 

The Council of the EU comprises the respective ministers of the EU nations (e.g. agriculture minister for each EU state).

 

Find a means, somehow, anyhow of learning something. 

OK, substitue parliament for council and the argument stands.  I did learn something thanks, but if you think the EU is democratic you have much more to learn.

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, murphy said:

Yeah, the flippin queen,  Always handing down laws and legislation. 

I know. It's called "royal assent".

 

Happy with the unelected Lords doing that though?

[murphy]

Just now, Voll Blau said:

I know. It's called "royal assent".

 

Happy with the unelected Lords doing that though?

Yeah, royal assent.  A formality which has not been with held for over 300 years.  Come off it.

 

If you have a better idea for the second chamber lets hear it.

 

Second thoughts, do we really want to get into that.

 

Lets just say this.  EU democratic yes or no?

[murphy]

20 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

43% of our exports go to the EU, 13% to the USA. Germany is slightly behind the US, France, Netherlands & Ireland each about half as much as USA.

 

Macclesfield Town could be said to be the fastest-growing football club as they've just returned to the league. Wouldn't make it a good idea for LCFC to bank on making all its signings from Macclesfield.

 

If we lose even a significant minority of our EU trade, to replace it we'd need a very large, very fast increase in trade with large developed or semi-developed nations (US, China, Japan, India) - or a truly astronomical increase in trade with less developed nations, as they currently account for a paltry percentage of our trade.

 

4.2% of our exports currently go to China, 2.2% to Turkey & 1.7% to South Korea. If we lost a quarter of our EU exports, we'd need to double or triple our exports to China, Turkey AND S. Korea to replace them.....how easy's that going to be, when we're competing with nations that are geographically closer to those 3 countries or that have lower costs?

What goods and services will we export to those countries to a massively greater extent? Webbo suggested Scotch whisky (a decent suggestion as it's already a major export, but has its limits). I suggested Gareth Southgate waistcoats to Samoa.

 

Over decades, other nations may become bigger prospects (Brazil, Nigeria, SE Asia etc.). Unfortunately, we don't have a tardis and don't have the option to live in 2050 or 2100 just now.

 

Other countries will be looking after their national interests, not ours. China and Turkey have autocratic, nationalistic governments in different ways. Same applies to the USA. Nobody reasonable has vitriol for the US (top of my bucket list to travel there). What they don't like is the brutal, cynical populist would-be autocrat Trump telling us we should split with the EU to the max. Why would he do that? Same reason as Putin does it....to promote their respective national interests. If we are isolated and not part of the world's most powerful economic bloc (also a significant political player), it will be much easier for the US to shaft the UK so as to promote US economic interests, or for Russia to shaft the UK over diplomatic issues like Novochok attacks.

 

Going back to trade, this may be naive, but I have never had a real answer to this question:  IF the average EU tarrifs stand at around 2-3% and our exports amount to around £225 billion, that would give us a bill at the higher end of 6.75 billion in tarrifs.  Our net contribution to the EU is £8bn.  Why would no deal be so bad when we could afford to subsidise those tariffs not to mention the income from incoming tarrifs which would dwarf that £6.75bn?

 

The real reason for Brexit in my opinion was to regain control and sovereignty.  A financial hit is inevitable but preferable to the deal at any cost.

[Alf Bentley]

14 minutes ago, murphy said:

You can argue the point regarding trade, that's fine, however the hole in your argument is that trade between the other 168 countries that are not in the EU is restircted by tarrifs and barriers.  Brexit would give us the power to remove these obstacles and grow those markets.  We can also trade wit the EU in the same way that they do.

 

Brexit would give us the power to remove obstacles and tariffs on imports, subject to abidance by WTO rules. So, we could get cheaper imports - many competing with domestic producers, putting British firms out of business and British workers out of work.

We couldn't remove obstacles and tariffs that British firms pay to export to those countries without negotiating free trade agreements - notoriously hard to achieve.

 

Other countries aren't suddenly going to remove all their import barriers/tariffs to help our firms. Unlike Brexit Britain, their thinking is not dominated by stupidity and xenophobia. They will protect the interests of their firms, their workers, their people.

Free trade agreements will become possible for the UK in some cases, but how many and on what terms when the world knows we are desperate?

 

The EU is the bloc/nation that has the most free trade agreements in the world. It has dozens. These include a FTA with South Korea - one of your main targets for increased exports. When we leave the EU, we will also be leaving all those FTAs. So UK firms exporting to South Korea will be trading on WORSE terms than before and WORSE terms than competing EU firms....until  such time as we negotiate a UK-SK free trade agreement. Any word from Liam Fox on that lately?

 

Yes, we'll be able to trade with the EU in the same way as other countries do....on slightly inferior terms to now under Soft Brexit, on much inferior terms under No Deal Brexit.

 

p.s. Thanks for allowing me to argue the point re. trade. How about thinking about the points that I made and responding to them? Need to massively increase exports? Need to mainly increase exports to large, developed nations, often a long way away, with lower cost nations nearby and with autocratic/nationalistic govts that will protect their own interests? Which goods and services? To which countries? You seem to have a closed mind.

Edited 13 July 2018 by Alf Bentley

[Voll Blau]

1 hour ago, murphy said:

Yeah, royal assent.  A formality which has not been with held for over 300 years.  Come off it.

 

If you have a better idea for the second chamber lets hear it.

 

Second thoughts, do we really want to get into that.

 

Lets just say this.  EU democratic yes or no?

Not perfectly so, and *shock* neither is our system, but yes overall.

Edited 13 July 2018 by Voll Blau

[leicsmac]

2 hours ago, murphy said:

You lot do realise, don't you, that the US is our single biggest trading nation partner in terms of exports?  And that is despite EU tariffs and trade barriers, so potential to grow significantly.  The EU is 27 countries of course.

 

Fastest growing export markets - Turkey, South Korea and China.

 

I just don't understand the vitriol toward the US.  Just another of then more unpleasant symptoms of the left of which there are legion.

 

I also don't understand the love-in with the vile EU and their determination to rule us or hurt us.  They are not our friends. 

 

2

Because the vitriol isn't (largely) towards the US - it's towards Trump and his administration. There is a difference and obfuscation of the two is being used to shoot down any condemnation of Trump as "anti-American".

 

It's entirely possible to be friendly towards a close ally and trading partner for a long-running partnership and respect the office of the leadership of that nation while at the same time making it known that in your opinion the current people are in charge doing things which are unbecoming of a supposedly world-leading state.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, murphy said:

You can argue the point regarding trade, that's fine, however the hole in your argument is that trade between the other 168 countries that are not in the EU is restircted by tarrifs and barriers.  Brexit would give us the power to remove these obstacles and grow those markets.  We can also trade wit the EU in the same way that they do.

Are you going to be on the thread for long?

I only ask as my eyes hurt from reading bollocks so I'm going to come back when you're not here.

[murphy]

3 minutes ago, Voll Blau said:

Not perfectly so, and *shock* neither is our system, but yes overall.

 

Come off it.  You have just dug your heels in here.  You're not stupid.  You know that the EU is nowhere near democratic.  Not even on speaking terms with democracy.