Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Bryn said:

 

I don't think that's what he's said.

I realise that but when asked about cutting heart attack aftercare his sentiment appeared to be  people have got to go sometime. 

 

I understand the point he was making, i'm sure many feel the same but just focusing on the services being cut - and you must see staffing and service problems directly - I'm shocked people are treating these cuts like this is normal. 

 

 

Edited 15 July 2017 by Guest

[Innovindil]

Good ol' Tony telling us the exact opposite of what Barnier told us just last week. Priceless. 

 

 

[Strokes]

1 hour ago, Innovindil said:

Good ol' Tony telling us the exact opposite of what Barnier told us just last week. Priceless. 

 

 

It just proves that what is said on camera, isn't always what is played out behind the scenes. Anyone who thinks the EU aren't worried by no deal are just as deluded, as those who think we aren't in for a rough period whatever the outcome.

[katieakita]

Tony Bliar what a question? A good source of debate about if he was a Tory or Labour Prime Minister compelling arguments both ways

[Guest MattP]

Tony Blair is hearing voices in his own hear again I think.

[Guest MattP]

Private eye nails it again....

[Captain...]

19 hours ago, Foxin_mad said:

It will reduce the ability of a company to invest in training, expansion and assets.

It really won't, corporation tax is taken from operating profits, training, acquisitions, expansion etc is part of operating costs. 

 

It will impact net profits, which is the bit that gets divided up between the shareholders, so you could argue that it will impact the ability to attract investment for a publicly listed company, but as the tax increase will affect all companies equally, unless you are suggesting that investors are just going to stop investing and keep their money under their mattresses then the impact will be minimal. You could also argue that companies will increase the cost of goods and services to compensate for this extra tax (and increase in salaries) but you can't argue that companies are going to collapse and abandon all growth plans because of a 6% increase in tax on profits.

 

The studies you mentioned on lowering corp tax bringing in more tax revenue are only relevant to international markets and international companies setting up a head office in your country. These are outdated models and unless we are going to slash it to the levels of Switzerland or Ireland we aren't going to be making ourselves look any more attractive to foreign companies. Where we are attractive to foreign companies is in terms of infrastructure, skilled labour, prestige, and corruption free market place and (currently) access to the single market. These things will offer greater rewards than a lower tax rate. 

 

It also won't have much effect on our saturated domestic market.

[katieakita]

22 minutes ago, MattP said:

Private eye nails it again....

 

Hope you subscribe the best way to find out what is going on, got to love PE

[DJ Barry Hammond]

49 minutes ago, MattP said:

Private eye nails it again....

 

One point it misses... these 18-24 year olds will paying towards debt / interest anyway through their later life anyway. Perhaps they may as well chuck billions more on top so they can at least themselves will they're young enough to do so! 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Private eye nails it again....

Myth 1 - Tuition fees are inevitable as HE is unaffordable for the state:

Debunking the myth: Look at the cost of tuition for home country/EU students everywhere else:

Austria 

Average tuition fees: Free for domestic/EU students; €726.72 (~US$780) per semester for international students at all levels.

 

Belgium 

Average tuition fees: Maximum of €890 (~US$960) per year for EU students; €890-4,450 (~US$960-4,820) per year for non-EU students. These figures apply at all study levels.

 

Denmark 

Average tuition fees: Free for home/EU students at all levels; €6,000-16,000 per year for others (~US$6,500-17,350).

 

 

Finland 

Average tuition fees: Free for all until August 2017, when non-EU/EEA international students will pay a minimum of €1,500 (~US$1,600) per year.

 

 

France 

Average annual tuition fees: €189 (~US$200) for most undergraduate programs at public universities; €256 (~US$280) for most master’s programs, and €391 (~US$425) for doctoral programs. Private universities charge considerably more.

 

Germany 

Average tuition fees: Free for all students at undergraduate and PhD level; €10,000+ (US$10,800+) per semester for most non-consecutive master’s programs. International students fees recently applied

 

Ireland 

Average tuition fees: Free for EU/EEA students at undergraduate level (with a fee of €3,000 for student services); from €10,000 (~US$10,800) per year for non-EU students at undergraduate level. From €3,800 (~US$4,175)per year for EU postgraduate students, and from €10,500 (~US$11,400) per year for non-EU students at postgraduate level.

 

Italy 

Average annual tuition fees: €850-1000 (~US$920-1,100) at undergraduate level at public universities; €1,500 (~US$1,600) at postgraduate level.

 

Norway 

Average tuition fees: Free for all at public universities (with a few exceptions in the case of specialized programs).

 

Spain 

Average annual tuition fees: €680-1,280 at undergraduate level in public universities; €1,320-1,500 (~US$1430-1,620) at postgraduate level.Non-EU students will pay slightly more.

 

Sweden 

Average tuition fees: Free for home/EU students at all levels; SEK 90,000-150,000 (~US$10,500-17,500) per year for others.

 

Switzerland 

Average tuition fees: CHF 1,266-2,200 (~US$1,250-2,200) per year at all study levels. International students may have to pay an additional charge of CHF 500 (~US$490) at undergraduate level and CHF 100 (~US$98) at postgraduate level.

 

The Netherlands 

Average annual tuition fees: €1,984 (~US$2,150) for EU students at all study levels, for most courses. Non-EU students pay an average of €6,000-12,000 (~US$6,500-13,000) at bachelor’s level and €8,000-20,000 (~US8,670-21,660) at postgraduate level.  

 

United Kingdom 

Average annual tuition fees: £9,000 (~US$12,700) for domestic/EU students at undergraduate level; ~US$17,000for international students outside the EU. International students should expect to pay ~US$14,150-18,400 for most master’s degrees.

Edited 15 July 2017 by Guest

[Strokes]

28 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Myth 1 - Tuition fees are inevitable as HE is unaffordable for the state:

Debunking the myth: Look at the cost of tuition for home country/EU students everywhere else:

Austria 

Average tuition fees: Free for domestic/EU students; €726.72 (~US$780) per semester for international students at all levels.

 

Belgium 

Average tuition fees: Maximum of €890 (~US$960) per year for EU students; €890-4,450 (~US$960-4,820) per year for non-EU students. These figures apply at all study levels.

 

Denmark 

Average tuition fees: Free for home/EU students at all levels; €6,000-16,000 per year for others (~US$6,500-17,350).

 

 

Finland 

Average tuition fees: Free for all until August 2017, when non-EU/EEA international students will pay a minimum of €1,500 (~US$1,600) per year.

 

 

France 

Average annual tuition fees: €189 (~US$200) for most undergraduate programs at public universities; €256 (~US$280) for most master’s programs, and €391 (~US$425) for doctoral programs. Private universities charge considerably more.

 

Germany 

Average tuition fees: Free for all students at undergraduate and PhD level; €10,000+ (US$10,800+) per semester for most non-consecutive master’s programs. International students fees recently applied

 

Ireland 

Average tuition fees: Free for EU/EEA students at undergraduate level (with a fee of €3,000 for student services); from €10,000 (~US$10,800) per year for non-EU students at undergraduate level. From €3,800 (~US$4,175)per year for EU postgraduate students, and from €10,500 (~US$11,400) per year for non-EU students at postgraduate level.

 

Italy 

Average annual tuition fees: €850-1000 (~US$920-1,100) at undergraduate level at public universities; €1,500 (~US$1,600) at postgraduate level.

 

Norway 

Average tuition fees: Free for all at public universities (with a few exceptions in the case of specialized programs).

 

Spain 

Average annual tuition fees: €680-1,280 at undergraduate level in public universities; €1,320-1,500 (~US$1430-1,620) at postgraduate level.Non-EU students will pay slightly more.

 

Sweden 

Average tuition fees: Free for home/EU students at all levels; SEK 90,000-150,000 (~US$10,500-17,500) per year for others.

 

Switzerland 

Average tuition fees: CHF 1,266-2,200 (~US$1,250-2,200) per year at all study levels. International students may have to pay an additional charge of CHF 500 (~US$490) at undergraduate level and CHF 100 (~US$98) at postgraduate level.

 

The Netherlands 

Average annual tuition fees: €1,984 (~US$2,150) for EU students at all study levels, for most courses. Non-EU students pay an average of €6,000-12,000 (~US$6,500-13,000) at bachelor’s level and €8,000-20,000 (~US8,670-21,660) at postgraduate level.  

 

United Kingdom 

Average annual tuition fees: £9,000 (~US$12,700) for domestic/EU students at undergraduate level; ~US$17,000for international students outside the EU. International students should expect to pay ~US$14,150-18,400 for most master’s degrees.

Ask yourself this, why don't all uk based higher education student just go to these countries to study, if they are free to members of the EU?

[ajthefox]

11 hours ago, toddybad said:

Presumably you think we should cut all the nhs' services then?

You don't half shoot yourself in the foot an awful lot on here.

 

In other news, it's good to see our chancellor's views on gender equality haven't updated with the times.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/15/philip-hammond-in-row-over-even-a-woman-can-drive-a-train-jibe

 

I'm sure many will dismiss this as a throwaway comment but seriously, saying such a thing is indicative of someone who definitely doesn't think men and women are equal.

 

 

Edited 15 July 2017 by ajthefox

[katieakita]

Some of you clearly do not read Private Eye enough

[Kopfkino]

45 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Ask yourself this, why don't all uk based higher education student just go to these countries to study, if they are free to members of the EU?

 

And why do so many EU students pay to study here

[Strokes]

12 minutes ago, KingGTF said:

 

And why do so many EU students pay to study here

It's an enigma, I just can't put my finger on it. 

[Bryn]

Over 9k a year for higher education is way too ****ing high like, I dunno if I'd have it free and I certainly wouldn't have millions of people doing shit courses for free, but it's way too high.

[Bryn]

Universities are absolutely raking it in like, there's absolutely no justification for saddling our entire skilled population with insurmountable debt.

 

I'd reduce their expenditure on tuition and I'd probably have them doing some sort of work in exchange for money so they can actually start saving at Uni and buy houses and stuff when they graduate. For example, no reason I couldn't have offset my tuition as a medical student by going in and taking bloods and putting cannulas in for minimum wage, a day or two a week.

[Bryn]

This system where the Government are giving out money they can't recoup is tosh as well. Thousands on grants and bursaries and loans to a student doing a weak course who then goes off travelling? What a waste of money. Lower tuition, higher guaranteed percentage repaid is surely more sensibly economically?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, KingGTF said:

 

And why do so many EU students pay to study here

 

55 minutes ago, Strokes said:

It's an enigma, I just can't put my finger on it. 

Perhaps because, for some completely bizarre reason, students from the EU can take out UK Student Loans which are unenforceable back in their home countries. Even if they agreed to repay on UK terms, many EU countries are far poorer than the UK and very few graduates would ever earn £21000. There is no way of the UK forcing repayment outside of the UK, however. According to the Student Loans Company, EU student debt quadrupled from £42 million in 2008 to £167 million in 2011. That worsened. In 2016 the Daily Mail reported that students from the EU owed £1.3 billion of the English loan book with the backlog growing.

 

 

 

[Buce]

1 hour ago, Strokes said:

Ask yourself this, why don't all uk based higher education student just go to these countries to study, if they are free to members of the EU?

 

Ask yourself - there are many possibilities.

 

1 hour ago, ajthefox said:

You don't half shoot yourself in the foot an awful lot on here.

 

In other news, it's good to see our chancellor's views on gender equality haven't updated with the times.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/15/philip-hammond-in-row-over-even-a-woman-can-drive-a-train-jibe

 

I'm sure many will dismiss this as a throwaway comment but seriously, saying such a thing is indicative of someone who definitely doesn't think men and women are equal.

 

 

 

Steady on - I don't think he's got over them being allowed to vote yet.

[ajthefox]

1 hour ago, Bryn said:

This system where the Government are giving out money they can't recoup is tosh as well. Thousands on grants and bursaries and loans to a student doing a weak course who then goes off travelling? What a waste of money. Lower tuition, higher guaranteed percentage repaid is surely more sensibly economically?

This is one of the things I don't understand about the whole thing.

 

The debt really doesn't mean all that much imo, but so many people will have thousands, possibly even tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt wiped from the system at some point. That's no good for the government or the students.

[Webbo]

 

https://medium.com/@jamie.bartlett/why-the-backfire-effect-is-damaging-political-debate-fa13f6d7d3c3

 

I know I'll be accused of irony for this but there are others on here far worse than me.

 

Quote

 

Why the ‘backfire effect’ is damaging political debate

A few months ago I read an inconvenient academic paper titled ‘When Corrections Fail’. Having spent years putting forward the neat case for ‘the market place of ideas’, this paper argued that coming into contact with ideas you disagree with rarely changes your mind. In fact, it’s usually the opposite. When deeply held moral and political views are discussed (especially without much depth) we leave more convinced than ever that we were right all along. Exposure to different opinions or information that contradicts our world view often simply hardens our position. This is known as ‘the backfire effect’.

It’s almost impossible to change someone’s deeply held views by arguing with them, which is why politics and religion are banned from dinner tables: you don’t get anywhere. We drone on about ideas market-places and being open-minded, but we rarely budge an inch on our moral or political views. (This might be because one’s political views are tied up with identity, which means any disagreement feels like a personal attack).

The backfire effect has been found in several studies, from tax cuts, to abortions, even UFOs. When shown newspaper articles about there being no WMDs in Iraq, pro-war subjects reported being more convinced they existed.

This backfire effect perhaps explains the state of political debate online, and why it gets so nasty. The received wisdom is that social media is characterised by ‘echo-chambers’ and ‘filter-bubbles’. A combination of network affects, algorithms, and personal choices means people don’t hear opposing political views online. Everyone is surrounded by like-minded people and corroborating news. It’s turning them angry, small-minded, dogmatic, et cetera.

But far from being an echo-chamber, it’s incredibly easy to find opposing views on social media. They’re everywhere. Your timeline and feed are bursting with knaves and fools.

There they are just look at them what unbearable assholes and so damn wrong about everything.

I don’t live in an echo-chamber or filter-bubble. Quite the reverse! I’m surrounded by idiots and dangerous demagogues. In fact, I’m the only sensible one here.

The backfire effect is getting turbocharged online. I think we’re getting more angry and convinced about everything, not because we’re surrounded by like-minded people, but by people who disagree with us. Social media allows you to find the worst examples of your opponents. It’s not a place to have your own views corroborated, but rather where your worst suspicions about the other lot can be quickly and easily confirmed.

The shouty Corbyn supporter, some old communist tweeting his shout-at-the-television, can be used as proof that Corbyn is a crypto-Stalinist.

The ranty post by someone who’s a Facebook friend of UKIP is proof that the lot of them are racists, white supremacists, etc.

Is there a way out? Last week I listened to the philosopher Julian Baggini at a conference called ‘Off Grid’. He explained something called ‘principle of charity’, which states that we ought to interpret a speaker’s statement as rational, and consider its best possible interpretation. What if, perhaps, that Corbynite tweeter really is worried about ‘social justice’ and thinks inequality is bad for everyone? What if that Tory is motived by

 

clearing the national debt so our children don’t have to pay it, rather than out of a bloodthirsty desire for cuts?

Try it! At the very least, it might delay the heat death of reasonable political disagreement.

 

 

[Facecloth]

There's nobody here worse than you Webbo! 

[Webbo]

4 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

There's nobody here worse than you Webbo! 

I don't call people scum.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

 

https://medium.com/@jamie.bartlett/why-the-backfire-effect-is-damaging-political-debate-fa13f6d7d3c3

 

I know I'll be accused of irony for this but there are others on here far worse than me.

 

 

Well yeah, this is pretty common knowledge. It's no real secret that people tend to circle the wagons when they feel the political has become personal and social media has meant that this is much, much easier for people to see how prevalent it is.