Carl the Llama Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 Just now, Webbo said: Tell me? Why? You'll just say that leaked customer information, shady manufacturing processes (child labour, anyone?), corrupt behind closed doors dealings and all the other bad stuff that those laws were designed in response to are a risk worth taking for the sake of being the ones deciding the laws. Because reasons. Here's a question though: If we're lowering our standards to be able to attract business away from this large, standards-imposing trading bloc, are we really deciding the laws after all? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 34 minutes ago, Webbo said: If we leave with no deal there is no backstop. My brain is getting twisted now, trying to understand what either side means - seems like threats are getting ramped up on both sides. The UK has already agreed to the divorce settlement, arrangements for EU/UK citizens and the backstop if no better Irish border solution is found (the 3 key issues in the divorce settlement). So, presumably any No Deal scenario would be because: - One side wanted No Deal, and the only people I've heard welcoming that prospect are some on the UK side. - Agreement couldn't be reached on the outline principles for future EU-UK relations: e.g. because the UK wants free movement of goods with no free movement of people & its facilitated customs arrangement, and the EU rejected this. So, is the UK threatening to renege on its backstop commitment (and agreements for UK/EU citizens & divorce settlement) if the EU doesn't accept the Chequers proposals as amended? Is the EU then making veiled threats by saying it is relying on "the commitments of others": i.e. "if you renege on the backstop, we'll go in hard on other issues"? Hard to see what other "commitments" they could be referring to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 16 minutes ago, lifted*fox said: you genuinely don't see a problem with severely lessening our trading abilities with all of the regulated countries on our doorstep in favour of trading with ****ing India - significantly further away, less developed and not interested in upholding standards? wow What's distance got to do with it?Japan is even further away and that was considered a massive win by the remainers. If the EU had a done a deal, as they were trying to do, you'd be telling how brilliant the EU were . Now you're saying a deal is undesirable? India is growing faster than the EU, maybe that's where we should be looking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 15 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: Why? You'll just say that leaked customer information, shady manufacturing processes (child labour, anyone?), corrupt behind closed doors dealings and all the other bad stuff that those laws were designed in response to are a risk worth taking for the sake of being the ones deciding the laws. Because reasons. Here's a question though: If we're lowering our standards to be able to attract business away from this large, standards-imposing trading bloc, are we really deciding the laws after all? A bit of stereotyping there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl the Llama Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 Just now, Webbo said: A bit of stereotyping there? No counterargument then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post foxinexile Posted 19 July 2018 Popular Post Share Posted 19 July 2018 7 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said: Nor am I. The EU can go and do one. No deal will be fine with me, and will hurt the bullying bastards, as much as us. Bullying ... punishing ... this is the real Project Fear if ever I've heard it. You have to smile at the paranoia of Leave supporters. The EU is seeking to punish us. No it's not. The EU is seeking to bully us. No it's not. If there's a 'No Deal' situation, the responsibility lies with our own government's incompetence. We have democratically chosen to leave; we are not being shown the door by force. 512 million people potentially in the firing line, and all I see is Leave supporters crowing about how 'No Deal' would "hurt" the EU or "punish" them. Tragic. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 34 minutes ago, Milo said: Blimey Alf, have you been recruited by Project Fear? By the way, we already have logjams at the ports and airports. We already have factories and businesses closing and there's a fair bit of violence already in the streets. There's a reasonable chunk of social inequality and food shortages as well. If you look at Brexit from the standpoint that everything about being in the EU is tickety-boo and a veritable bed of roses, then of course the doom and gloom view of leaving may well look like the picture you are describing. If you think that disengaging from a massive self-serving, corrupt slug of an organisation to be able to pursue our own aims is a good thing - well, then the future looks a bit more positive. The bit about "logjams at ports" has been mentioned by various people, but I mainly mentioned it after seeing an interview with a manager from Immingham Port who expected exactly that - on a scale far worse than anything that already happens. Factory layoffs and food shortages are logical consequences, given just-in-time production processes in various manufacturing sectors (e.g. cars) that rely on imported components to keep lines running. Likewise, food shortages is a logical consequence if truckloads of perishable food are stuck at ports. Maybe I'll be wrong about violence in the streets, but there's already a lot of discontent about a lot of issues (look at the Tommy Robinson demos) and a lot of desperate and angry people - imagine the impact if a lot of people do start losing their jobs and homes, struggling to feed their families, there are food shortages and travel becomes a problem. I can imagine things getting very heated. Hopefully won't happen if there's a deal.... I'm aware that everything is not perfect at the moment, though how much of that can be attributed to the EU is questionable. The EU isn't responsible for UK ports/airports, UK businesses closing, violence on UK streets (big rise in violent crime figures today), social inequality in the UK etc.....and I'm certainly not uncritical of the EU. It has serious faults but cannot be blamed for everything that goes wrong in the UK - most of which is still controlled by the national govt. If you want a more cheerful article, here's one suggesting that if No Deal happened everyone would just ignore it and carry on as before, producing a de facto ultra-Soft Brexit (!): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/19/no-deal-brexit-britain-eu-wto-march Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 12 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: My brain is getting twisted now, trying to understand what either side means - seems like threats are getting ramped up on both sides. The UK has already agreed to the divorce settlement, arrangements for EU/UK citizens and the backstop if no better Irish border solution is found (the 3 key issues in the divorce settlement). So, presumably any No Deal scenario would be because: - One side wanted No Deal, and the only people I've heard welcoming that prospect are some on the UK side. - Agreement couldn't be reached on the outline principles for future EU-UK relations: e.g. because the UK wants free movement of goods with no free movement of people & its facilitated customs arrangement, and the EU rejected this. So, is the UK threatening to renege on its backstop commitment (and agreements for UK/EU citizens & divorce settlement) if the EU doesn't accept the Chequers proposals as amended? Is the EU then making veiled threats by saying it is relying on "the commitments of others": i.e. "if you renege on the backstop, we'll go in hard on other issues"? Hard to see what other "commitments" they could be referring to... With the EU, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. We're not going to put up a hard border and neither is ireland. It's a trumped up obstacle to put pressure on the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said: No counterargument then. Indians are corrupt and use child labour? I'm sure there is some of that but India is a modern economy now. They've even got a space programme. We already buy loads of stuff off them , you're just looking for negatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 37 minutes ago, Webbo said: EU FTA almost dead, India now eyes post-Brexit UK https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/eu-fta-almost-dead-india-now-eyes-post-brexit-uk/articleshow/65046938.cms Interesting that the article reckons that an India-EU FTA might become easier after Brexit as the main obstacle has been UK resistance to opening up services... If they're hopeful of a deal with both EU and post-Brexit UK, presumably they think we'll soften our demands out of desperation (as well as accepting the big increase in immigration they're demanding) - and that the EU will be more flexible on services without us? I'm dubious about that article, though, as it claims that the UK has "the lion's share of India-EU trade and investment". Might be true for imports and investment (don't know), but certainly not for exports. I've seen figures before showing that Germany exports about twice as much to India as we do, surprisingly given the historical connection - and even Belgium exports more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said: Interesting that the article reckons that an India-EU FTA might become easier after Brexit as the main obstacle has been UK resistance to opening up services... If they're hopeful of a deal with both EU and post-Brexit UK, presumably they think we'll soften our demands out of desperation (as well as accepting the big increase in immigration they're demanding) - and that the EU will be more flexible on services without us? I'm dubious about that article, though, as it claims that the UK has "the lion's share of India-EU trade and investment". Might be true for imports and investment (don't know), but certainly not for exports. I've seen figures before showing that Germany exports about twice as much to India as we do, surprisingly given the historical connection - and even Belgium exports more. If you have to pander to the vested interests of 28 different nations then getting to a deal is going to be hard. We only have one set of vested interests and after Brexit the EU will only have 27 so that'll be a little easier for them. Everyone's a winner, what's the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 32 minutes ago, MattP said: Sorry but there is no justification for a relaunch of political murder even in the instance of the EU demanding Ireland puts up a border. The way people talk it's like the Irish are a bunch of savages who can't wait to start killing each other again, they aren't. There's no justification for sectarian violence to recommence - and the vast majority will be opposed, I'm sure. Hopefully they hold sway. But it only takes a small minority to start it up and things can spiral rapidly. Did you not see about the violence last week: Loyalists rioting and attacking property and people in Belfast, dissident Republicans doing the same in Derry, someone throwing explosives at Gerry Adams' house (whatever you think of him, can you imagine the retribution if they'd blown him up?). Once sectarian violence starts, even with a small minority, people can get very tribal. Even people who'd normally have no interest in such activities could get drawn in - we saw that in the Balkans in the 90s, in the Rwandan genocide etc. (though hopefully nothing quite on that scale would happen!). It's the fault of history and sectarian extremists, not current politicians, that a tinderbox exists - but current politicians have a responsibility not to carelessly thrown matches around near that tinderbox. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 10 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: There's no justification for sectarian violence to recommence - and the vast majority will be opposed, I'm sure. Hopefully they hold sway. But it only takes a small minority to start it up and things can spiral rapidly. Did you not see about the violence last week: Loyalists rioting and attacking property and people in Belfast, dissident Republicans doing the same in Derry, someone throwing explosives at Gerry Adams' house (whatever you think of him, can you imagine the retribution if they'd blown him up?). Once sectarian violence starts, even with a small minority, people can get very tribal. Even people who'd normally have no interest in such activities could get drawn in - we saw that in the Balkans in the 90s, in the Rwandan genocide etc. (though hopefully nothing quite on that scale would happen!). It's the fault of history and sectarian extremists, not current politicians, that a tinderbox exists - but current politicians have a responsibility not to carelessly thrown matches around near that tinderbox. Of course great care has to be taken, as had been said on numerous occasions we certainly won't be putting any sort of hard border up, the government couldn't be more clear on that. I have read it, there has been low level violence over there for some time now and it rarely gets reported over here, I still think the GFA agreement is a sticking plaster as a return to violence is inevitable given the fight for a united Ireland will never cease, but I really hope I'm wrong. My point was though no voter would be responsible were it to happen, I mean there is a chance of loyalist rioting that could develop into serious trouble if Corbyn and McDonnell were elected in our next GE, but I'd never dream of laying the blame at the door of Labour voters for that if it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 44 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: shady manufacturing processes (child labour, anyone?), corrupt behind closed doors dealings Like Romania, then? Part of EU last time I looked... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 1 hour ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said: Nor am I. The EU can go and do one. No deal will be fine with me, and will hurt the bullying bastards, as much as us. Do you have a job? In what industry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Webbo said: What's distance got to do with it?Japan is even further away and that was considered a massive win by the remainers. If the EU had a done a deal, as they were trying to do, you'd be telling how brilliant the EU were . Now you're saying a deal is undesirable? India is growing faster than the EU, maybe that's where we should be looking? Japan has to deal with the EU on the EUs terms. It's a hugely powerful bloc. The EU doesn't have to accept lesser regulations because it's other countries desperate to trade with them. And they only have one set of standards that are best for all 27 nations because those standards and their joint power gets them all better deals than they would alobe. 44 minutes ago, Webbo said: Indians are corrupt and use child labour? I'm sure there is some of that but India is a modern economy now. They've even got a space programme. We already buy loads of stuff off them , you're just looking for negatives. Says of the master of clutching desperate for any excuse why leaving isn't a terrible idea. Edited 19 July 2018 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: Says of the master of clutching desperate for any excuse why leaving isn't a terrible idea Remind me again why leaving is a terrible idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 8 minutes ago, Milo said: Remind me again why leaving is a terrible idea Economy, jobs. Depending how hard we leave depends on how bad the outlook is for those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGEROUS TIGER Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 50 minutes ago, foxinexile said: Bullying ... punishing ... this is the real Project Fear if ever I've heard it. You have to smile at the paranoia of Leave supporters. The EU is seeking to punish us. No it's not. The EU is seeking to bully us. No it's not. If there's a 'No Deal' situation, the responsibility lies with our own government's incompetence. We have democratically chosen to leave; we are not being shown the door by force. 512 million people potentially in the firing line, and all I see is Leave supporters crowing about how 'No Deal' would "hurt" the EU or "punish" them. Tragic. We don't need cranky European law, to keep telling us what we can or not do in our own country. We are perfectly capable of thinking for ourselves. We never voted to join the EU. We voted all those years ago to join the Common Market, which was a totally different set up, People who want the live in what is an essentially European State, have very little or no faith, in our being able to run our own country. That is truly "tragic". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DANGEROUS TIGER Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 26 minutes ago, toddybad said: Do you have a job? In what industry? Retired, from Thames Valley Police, if that has any bearing. Perhaps you are just naturally nosey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 33 minutes ago, toddybad said: Do you have a job? In what industry? 3 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said: Retired, from Thames Valley Police, if that has any bearing. Perhaps you are just naturally nosey. DT is, like, 300 years old like most Brexiters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 23 minutes ago, DANGEROUS TIGER said: Retired, from Thames Valley Police, if that has any bearing. Perhaps you are just naturally nosey. It's just the majority of people pushing for no deal or hard Brexit don't have jobs to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Buce said: DT is, like, 300 years old like most Brexiters. And a homophobe. 'poor little kiddie' Edited 19 July 2018 by lifted*fox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ithuriel Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 23 minutes ago, toddybad said: It's just the majority of people pushing for no deal or hard Brexit don't have jobs to worry about. Sauce er I meant source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted 19 July 2018 Share Posted 19 July 2018 30 minutes ago, toddybad said: It's just the majority of people pushing for no deal or hard Brexit don't have jobs to worry about. The majority? Really? You get that from the Guardian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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