Guest MattP Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, l444ry said: Haha. Nice try. If she's with the mad Brexiteers why does she keep having to change her plans to suit them? All the Remain Tories (even Ken Clarke) were totally behind her Chequers deal and were prepared to vote for it. Edited 20 July 2018 by MattP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, MattP said: Backbenchers can't exactly produce a document that contradicts government policy, look at the uproar this week when the ERG made a couple of amendments that just ensured our negotiation remained consistent with the Lancaster House speech and the manifesto. The names you mention, Farage aside, have been bound by collective responsibility. If they do what you ask here, they effectively have to launch a leadership challenge alongside it. I'd fully expect that to happen as well from Boris if she comes back with what most expect in the Autumn, but you could never do it mid-negotiation. Backbenchers can and do make proposals in all sorts of ways: motions, amendments, questions to the PM/ministers, speeches in or out of parliament, documents. The ERG just did so, as did Grieve & the Remainers. Corbyn spent 30 years opposing Labour front bench policy. Certain contributions might risk disciplinary action by the whips, but that would be worth it for an important matter of principle, surely? And questions to the PM or amendments probably wouldn't lead to any disciplinary action. As for the leading Brexiteer cabinet ministers... They might be bound by collective responsibility once the cabinet has decided on a particular policy. But there's nothing stopping them proposing a policy re. the WTO in the first place - particularly not when their policy remit covers the area in question (Fox as Trade Minister, Davis as Brexit Minister, Boris as Foreign Secretary). There's most certainly nothing stopping them speaking out once they've quit as ministers - or obliging them to make a leadership challenge. After resigning, Davis openly criticised May's backstop policy and Boris openly criticised May's "miserable" Chequers policy and failure to pursue a proper free trade agreement as he saw it. Neither of them has launched a leadership challenge (yet). Edit: Just occurred to me......Collective responsibility was suspended until May reinstated it a few days ago. There has been no collective responsibility since Cameron suspended it for the referendum. Edited 20 July 2018 by Alf Bentley 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 8 minutes ago, l444ry said: Haha. Nice try. 1-0 Izzy.......? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l444ry Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, MattP said: If she's with the mad Brexiteers why does she keep having to change her plans to suit them? All the Remain Tories (even Ken Clarke) were totally behind her Chequers deal and were prepared to vote for it. Wish I'd phrased that first part differently. Has given Brexiteers an excuse to ignore the main part of post. Oh well! Edited 20 July 2018 by l444ry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 1 hour ago, Strokes said: I can’t speak for other people’s thoughts, especially of people I don’t know but I guess they have other ideas of what the solution is. If we haven’t asked the WTO for an exemption then we haven’t exhausted all options, can we agree that is true? Yeah, I haven't disputed that. 1 hour ago, MattP said: Backbenchers can't exactly produce a document that contradicts government policy, look at the uproar this week when the ERG made a couple of amendments that just ensured our negotiation remained consistent with the Lancaster House speech and the manifesto. The names you mention, Farage aside, have been bound by collective responsibility. If they do what you ask here, they effectively have to launch a leadership challenge alongside it. I'd fully expect that to happen as well from Boris if she comes back with what most expect in the Autumn, but you could never do it mid-negotiation. I'm not asking them to produce anything official (and I'm not limiting those who should put their heads above the parapet to those names either). It will be interesting to see though, in future, who actually publicly claims they came forward at some point with a workable plan which was ignored. You'd at least think Gobshite Nige would have something to say at the moment if he has any genuine practical advice to offer, hardly got anything to lose by doing so has he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 I just want somebody - anybody to come up with a workable solution to this problem, because quite frankly I am not sure there is a solution that doesn't at least cause and economic problems and major unemployment in the short/medium term. My fear as well as this will lead to a global recession, If one of the major economies and financial centres suddenly has a financial crash there will be wider implications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 9 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: There's most certainly nothing stopping them speaking out once they've quit as ministers - or obliging them to make a leadership challenge. After resigning, Davis openly criticised May's backstop policy and Boris openly criticised May's "miserable" Chequers policy and failure to pursue a proper free trade agreement as he saw it. Neither of them has launched a leadership challenge (yet). Edit: Just occurred to me......Collective responsibility was suspended until May reinstated it a few days ago. There has been no collective responsibility since Cameron suspended it for the referendum. Officially it wasn't in place but we all know there was still a line to be towed, it's been clear for some time Davis wasn't happy but still gave her a chance to negotiate something. The odd criticism is far different from trying to completely re-work whatever it is she is doing. I still think anyone standing up and trying to provide an alternative solution would be seen as challenging the PM - the press from that as well would be terrible for the individual right before the final stage of the negotiation is about to begin. (I still don't think she has a clue how to achieve this by the way) 4 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: I'm not asking them to produce anything official (and I'm not limiting those who should put their heads above the parapet to those names either). It will be interesting to see though, in future, who actually publicly claims they came forward at some point with a workable plan which was ignored. You'd at least think Gobshite Nige would have something to say at the moment if he has any genuine practical advice to offer, hardly got anything to lose by doing so has he? That's the problem though, they can't really present something as you can end up with a conversation with the EU running alongside the official negotiation, just wasn't feasible in my opinion. As for Farage, isn't his position to leave on WTO terms anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: I just want somebody - anybody to come up with a My fear as well as this will lead to a global recession, If one of the major economies and financial centres suddenly has a financial crash there will be wider implications. We could have No Deal Brexit followed by Labour in government and McDonnell as chancellor in the space of months, even I've got to admit it's pretty scary for the economic outlook of the country. Edited 20 July 2018 by MattP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 3 minutes ago, MattP said: We could have No Deal Brexit followed by Labour in government and McDonnell as chancellor in the space of months, even I've got to admit it's pretty scary for the economic outlook of the country. This would be an absolute nightmare. If that happens this country is absolutely finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 1 hour ago, MattP said: Backbenchers can't exactly produce a document that contradicts government policy, look at the uproar this week when the ERG made a couple of amendments that just ensured our negotiation remained consistent with the Lancaster House speech and the manifesto. The names you mention, Farage aside, have been bound by collective responsibility. If they do what you ask here, they effectively have to launch a leadership challenge alongside it. I'd fully expect that to happen as well from Boris if she comes back with what most expect in the Autumn, but you could never do it mid-negotiation. What? Frontbenchers, let alone backbenchers, have been briefing against the government line for the last 18 months. They've been having internal negotiations for months trying to find a solution. There isn't one. I'm pretty sure if there was somebody like JRM would have mentioned something by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, MattP said: Officially it wasn't in place but we all know there was still a line to be towed, it's been clear for some time Davis wasn't happy but still gave her a chance to negotiate something. The odd criticism is far different from trying to completely re-work whatever it is she is doing. I still think anyone standing up and trying to provide an alternative solution would be seen as challenging the PM - the press from that as well would be terrible for the individual right before the final stage of the negotiation is about to begin. (I still don't think she has a clue how to achieve this by the way) That's the problem though, they can't really present something as you can end up with a conversation with the EU running alongside the official negotiation, just wasn't feasible in my opinion. As for Farage, isn't his position to leave on WTO terms anyway? Nerd alert! Just in case you're interested, this is one of the most commonly mistaken idioms - the correct wording is in fact 'toeing the line' (or in your usage, 'a line to be toed'. https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/toe-the-line.html What's the meaning of the phrase 'Toe the line'? To conform to an established standard or political programme. What's the origin of the phrase 'Toe the line'? There is some confusion between 'toe the line' and the frequently seen misspelling 'tow the line'. The 'tow' version is no doubt encouraged by the fact that ropes or cables on ships are often called lines and that 'tow lines' are commonplace nautical items. The earlier meaning of 'to toe the line' was to position one's toes next to a marked line in order to be ready to start a race, or some other undertaking. In the 19th century, we wouldn't have been limited to lines when it came to placing our feet, but would have had a choice of what to toe - a mark, scratch, crack or trig [a line or small trench]. These were all then in use in 'toe the ...' phrases. The earliest version we know about is from The Diverting History of John Bull and Brother Jonathan, 1813, by 'Hector Bull-Us' - known to his family and friends as James Paulding: "He began to think it was high time to toe the mark." Pauling was using the figurative rather than literal meaning of the phrase, that is, to 'toe the mark' was to conform to a set standard. Going back to the original, literal 'toeing' of a line; there are many circumstances where one might place one's toes up to a line - the start of a sporting event, standing in formation on parade, etc, etc. So, which is the source of the phrase? One explanation that is often repeated is that the phrase derives from the British House of Commons. Arguments in the House are often heated. To deter members of opposing parties from attacking each other, two parallel red lines are marked, two sword-lengths apart, on the floor of the house. MPs are expected to stay behind these lines when a speech is in progress. Members, of course, no longer carry swords, but the tradition remains. Visitors to the House of Commons are very likely to hear this tale related by a tour guide. Counting against this supposed derivation is the fact that the current Commons Chamber dates from only 1950, when the building was rebuilt following WWII bomb damage. Paintings of earlier Commons chambers, from the times when members might actually have worn swords, show no such lines. The parliamentary link may be strengthened in some people's minds because of the 'toe the party line' usage, which relates to orthodoxy in politics. Another possible source is prizefighting. The scratch was the line marked across the ring in early 'toe-to-toe' boxing bouts. Anyone man enough to enter into such a contest was 'up to scratch' (see also: start from scratch). This version of the phrase was known in the USA by the early 19th century, for example, this piece from the Gettysburg newspaper The Peoples Press, from October 1835, in which the public was invited to put up or shut up in a wager about an election: Come gentlemen "toe the scratch" or hereafter forever hold your peace. Other early examples of 'toe the ...' have a nautical connection. In the 19th century, sailors were expected to prepare themselves for group punishment by standing in formation on deck and 'toeing the line' between boards - also called 'toeing the crack'. This usage is the earliest that I've found for 'toe the line' in print - from The Edinburgh Literary Journal, January - June 1831: "The matter, therefore, necessarily became rather serious; and the whole gang of us being sent for on the quarter-deck, we were ranged in a line, each with his toes at the edge of a plank, according to the orthodox fashion of these gregarious scoldings, technically called toe-the-line matches." Which is the source? Well, no one knows. What is for certain - it is toe, not tow. Edited 20 July 2018 by Buce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milo Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 7 minutes ago, Buce said: Which is the source? Well, no one knows. What is for certain - it is toe, not tow. Interesting - I've seen both written, and I knew that it was 'to toe the line, not tow', but both versions kinda work...which I quite like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 Revealed: Tory donors who paid £7m to socialise with Theresa May https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/20/revealed-tory-donors-who-paid-7m-to-socialise-with-theresa-may I'm looking at you @Izzy Muzzett... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 3 minutes ago, Buce said: Revealed: Tory donors who paid £7m to socialise with Theresa May https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/20/revealed-tory-donors-who-paid-7m-to-socialise-with-theresa-may I'm looking at you @Izzy Muzzett... Why you looking at me? It's the way of the world. Always has been, always will be. Wealthy people will always 'donate' to get access and try to influence the PM whether it's May, Corbyn or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 Just now, Izzy Muzzett said: Why you looking at me? It's the way of the world. Always has been, always will be. Wealthy people will always 'donate' to get access and try to influence the PM whether it's May, Corbyn or anyone else. 1 I'm pretty sure you'd like to (ahem) socialise with the vicar's daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 51 minutes ago, toddybad said: What? Frontbenchers, let alone backbenchers, have been briefing against the government line for the last 18 months. They've been having internal negotiations for months trying to find a solution. There isn't one. I'm pretty sure if there was somebody like JRM would have mentioned something by now. Massive difference between leaking/briefing and then putting up official alternative policy - as I say look at the shit a few amendments caused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 2 minutes ago, Buce said: I'm pretty sure you'd like to (ahem) socialise with the vicar's daughter. Me and Theresa naked together in a field of wheat is my ultimate fantasy mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 Just now, Izzy Muzzett said: Me and Theresa naked together in a field of wheat is my ultimate fantasy mate Did you really have to put that image in my head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 Just now, Buce said: Did you really have to put that image in my head? She actually doesn’t have a bad body since she’s barren. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buce Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: She actually doesn’t have a bad body since she’s barren. Mate, you might be ok with the thought of seeing Izzy naked but, as much as I love him, my friendship doesn't stretch that far. Edited 20 July 2018 by Buce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzy Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 9 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: She actually doesn’t have a bad body since she’s barren. Decent rack and nice pins tbf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 I’ve never been so disgusted in my life, mods delete Izzy please. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpe's Fox Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 Don’t say you wouldn’t have the derty slaaaaaag. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlloverthefloorYesNdidi Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 47 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: She actually doesn’t have a bad body since she’s barren. Possibly the most horrible and most funny comment i've read in a while Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted 20 July 2018 Share Posted 20 July 2018 1 hour ago, Buce said: Revealed: Tory donors who paid £7m to socialise with Theresa May https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/20/revealed-tory-donors-who-paid-7m-to-socialise-with-theresa-may I'm looking at you @Izzy Muzzett... Would consider it, but only if she wore her leopard print shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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