Webbo Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 5 minutes ago, MattP said: No one knows what the final deal is going to be, uncertainty is a killer though and I feel for anyone who has lost out because of that, this is why a stronger government was needed for negotiation from the start and the decision to trigger article 50 daft (once again let's remind only Farage and Corbyn wanted to trigger it the next day) - there had never been any doubt some will gain and some will lose, many have lost out over the years because of the EU and no one said a word. I do agree with @Kopfkino though on the ERG - they are now in the position of threats to try and blockade any sort of deal which is so unhelpful when even Europhiles like Macron are now pressuring the deal for a close business relation. You have to let the elected government negotiate this and bring it back to parliament. By the way, let's not forget some of the people now getting upset at the effect on business on here were the same people voting for a party just last year that wanted to raise Corporation tax back upto 26% and make John McDonnell the chancellor. That would have seen capital flight, job losses and business closure far bigger than any Brexit, but you had no problem voting for that insanity. Now all of a sudden you care about business. Spare me the bullshit, you wouldn't have given a shit after that and you know it. You lot can spare us the lectures on a person and his livelihood being destroyed. The thing is, the whole of Europe know that May can't give any more ground or they'll be dealing with Boris or JRM and there'll be no deal. I actually think, perversely , that her weakness has put pressure on the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 Just now, Charl91 said: But it hasn't happened yet See your previous point. atm = at the minute. Let me know if there's anything else you're struggling with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Webbo said: The thing is, the whole of Europe know that May can't give any more ground or they'll be dealing with Boris or JRM and there'll be no deal. I actually think, perversely , that her weakness has put pressure on the EU. The Macron leak was quite significant - no deal does scare everyone. For the first time some of them on the continent now think it's possible and all of a sudden pressure arrives - we needed them to believe that from the start. Prevarication has now clearly cost a lot of business as the post from @Realist Guy In The Room shows - he's lost things before anything is even concrete and nothing has been confirmed. We didn't half cock up this negotiation though, played nothing that we had and gave away everything. Just invoking article 50 and shouting "no deal tomorrow" would probably have seen more concessions from Europe in the talks, then we've got an opposition wanting to go into it demanding we accept whatever they give us. You can tell there isn't a poker hand in the Houses of Parliament. I honestly think we would have been better off sending in businessmen and women rather than politicians and civil servants. Edited 31 August 2018 by MattP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 8 minutes ago, MattP said: No one knows what the final deal is going to be, uncertainty is a killer though and I feel for anyone who has lost out because of that, this is why a stronger government was needed for negotiation from the start and the decision to trigger article 50 daft (once again let's remind only Farage and Corbyn wanted to trigger it the next day) - there had never been any doubt some will gain and some will lose, many have lost out over the years because of the EU and no one said a word. I do agree with @Kopfkino though on the ERG - they are now in the position of threats to try and blockade any sort of deal which is so unhelpful when even Europhiles like Macron are now pressuring the deal for a close business relation. You have to let the elected government negotiate this and bring it back to parliament. By the way, let's not forget some of the people now getting upset at the effect on business on here were the same people voting for a party just last year that wanted to raise Corporation tax back upto 26% and make John McDonnell the chancellor. That would have seen capital flight, job losses and business closure far bigger than any Brexit, but you had no problem voting for that insanity. Now all of a sudden you care about business. Spare me the bullshit, you wouldn't have given a shit after that and you know it. You lot can spare us the lectures on a person and his livelihood being destroyed. I can see you got your standard "BREXIT GOOD" certified Webbo-like already And you've already managed to turn it back round to "but what about Labour", in nearly record time. Going for the full house on FoxesTalk-Right-Wing-Bingo, I see. "That would have seen capital flight, job losses and business closure far bigger than any Brexit" I call bull-shit on that one Think your bias may be showing there just a tad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Charl91 said: I can see you got your standard "BREXIT GOOD" certified Webbo-like already And you've already managed to turn it back round to "but what about Labour", in nearly record time. Going for the full house on FoxesTalk-Right-Wing-Bingo, I see. "That would have seen capital flight, job losses and business closure far bigger than any Brexit" I call bull-shit on that one Think your bias may be showing there just a tad. What? Lots of laughing - always a sign of insecurity. I don't look at rep points - I have no idea why anyone does. I take it you were one of the ones who voted for the 7% rise and now pretends to care about business then? Lots of you about these days. Edited 31 August 2018 by MattP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markyblue Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 13 minutes ago, Charl91 said: I can see you got your standard "BREXIT GOOD" certified Webbo-like already And you've already managed to turn it back round to "but what about Labour", in nearly record time. Going for the full house on FoxesTalk-Right-Wing-Bingo, I see. "That would have seen capital flight, job losses and business closure far bigger than any Brexit" I call bull-shit on that one Think your bias may be showing there just a tad. Yes don't bring labour into a brexit argument because not having an opinion on it surely excludes you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifted*fox Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 19 minutes ago, Webbo said: atm = at the minute. Let me know if there's anything else you're struggling with. How can it be a 'disaster' ATM when it hasn't happened yet? Yeah, there's a lot of foreshadowing of an incoming shit-storm, and some people have felt it on a personal level, but it's not a disaster just yet. Lots of people are saying the negotiations are a disaster (and they would be right) Lots of people are saying it will be a disaster (and they're probably right too, though you may need to look up 'future tense' for that one). Lots of people are saying that it is a disaster for them on a personal level (if they've lost jobs because of Brexit uncertainty, then who am I to argue) And maybe there are a few people who are saying we are currently experiencing a disaster, in which case that's clearly exaggerated / hyperbolic. At the moment, at least What I do see though, is a lot of trumped up Brexiteers parading around yelling "Ha! Look how wrong you are! You predicted it would be really really shit after the vote, and it turns out it's only a little bit shit! Don't you feel silly now!". Haha yeah, good one.... In my personal opinion, I don't think the world will end. I think we'll make some concessions, and we'll manage to scrape some sort of a deal. We'll have left the EU (in name, at least), and we'll carry on. We'll be a little worse off than before financially (some people more than others), some different changes/rules/regulations will be introduced that make our lives a little bit more difficult, and we'll have slightly alienated some of our closer friends and allies. We'll have set ourselves back on the world stage, but I don't predict major disaster. It will be mainly the same as normal. Just a little bit worse off than before. But we'll have done all that for no benefit. Shot ourselves in the proverbial foot, for no clear gain. Well, other than 'Sovereignty'. Still not quite sure what that is. I hope I can eat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 12 minutes ago, Charl91 said: How can it be a 'disaster' ATM when it hasn't happened yet? Yeah, there's a lot of foreshadowing of an incoming shit-storm, and some people have felt it on a personal level, but it's not a disaster just yet. Lots of people are saying the negotiations are a disaster (and they would be right) Lots of people are saying it will be a disaster (and they're probably right too, though you may need to look up 'future tense' for that one). Lots of people are saying that it is a disaster for them on a personal level (if they've lost jobs because of Brexit uncertainty, then who am I to argue) And maybe there are a few people who are saying we are currently experiencing a disaster, in which case that's clearly exaggerated / hyperbolic. At the moment, at least What I do see though, is a lot of trumped up Brexiteers parading around yelling "Ha! Look how wrong you are! You predicted it would be really really shit after the vote, and it turns out it's only a little bit shit! Don't you feel silly now!". Haha yeah, good one.... In my personal opinion, I don't think the world will end. I think we'll make some concessions, and we'll manage to scrape some sort of a deal. We'll have left the EU (in name, at least), and we'll carry on. We'll be a little worse off than before financially (some people more than others), some different changes/rules/regulations will be introduced that make our lives a little bit more difficult, and we'll have slightly alienated some of our closer friends and allies. We'll have set ourselves back on the world stage, but I don't predict major disaster. It will be mainly the same as normal. Just a little bit worse off than before. But we'll have done all that for no benefit. Shot ourselves in the proverbial foot, for no clear gain. Well, other than 'Sovereignty'. Still not quite sure what that is. I hope I can eat it. People say it's a disaster, it isn't a disaster at the minute. It's not rocket science. Not really sure what the rest of your rant was about. Anyway, you're boring me now so I'll I'll leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 14 minutes ago, Charl91 said: In my personal opinion, I don't think the world will end. I think we'll make some concessions, and we'll manage to scrape some sort of a deal. We'll have left the EU (in name, at least), and we'll carry on. We'll be a little worse off than before financially (some people more than others), some different changes/rules/regulations will be introduced that make our lives a little bit more difficult, and we'll have slightly alienated some of our closer friends and allies. We'll have set ourselves back on the world stage, but I don't predict major disaster. It will be mainly the same as normal. Just a little bit worse off than before. But we'll have done all that for no benefit. Shot ourselves in the proverbial foot, for no clear gain. Well, other than 'Sovereignty'. Still not quite sure what that is. I hope I can eat it. Sounds great, Finally a bit of positivity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 Just now, Strokes said: Sounds great, Finally a bit of positivity Can't wait for my three filling meals a day of fresh sovereignty. I imagine it probably tastes a little like corned beef. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 8 minutes ago, Webbo said: People say it's a disaster, it isn't a disaster at the minute. It's not rocket science. Not really sure what the rest of your rant was about. Anyway, you're boring me now so I'll I'll leave it at that. 'People' say that? People say the moon landings were faked. Some people are idiots. It's not rocket science, you can cherry-pick 'people' to make any point you want. Doesn't mean you're right though, lol. Most 'people' aren't saying we're currently in a disaster, only that we're heading towards one. You can put your head back in the sand now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 5 minutes ago, Charl91 said: Can't wait for my three filling meals a day of fresh sovereignty. I imagine it probably tastes a little like corned beef. Hopefully, I love corned beef. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charl91 Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 2 minutes ago, Strokes said: Hopefully, I love corned beef. I wonder if there's a correlation between voting for Brexit and liking corned Beef. I bet there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 1 minute ago, Charl91 said: I wonder if there's a correlation between voting for Brexit and liking corned Beef. I bet there is. Maybe, although if there was I bet George Soros would have found it by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 8 minutes ago, Strokes said: Hopefully, I love corned beef. It's great with cheese and onion in a sandwich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 Just now, Webbo said: It's great with cheese and onion in a sandwich. I like it with piccalilli or Branson Pickle. I’ll try Cheese and Onion next time though. I wonder if all brexiteers love Spam? I like spam, I’m quite partial to all ration food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 1 minute ago, Strokes said: I like it with piccalilli or Branson Pickle. I’ll try Cheese and Onion next time though. I wonder if all brexiteers love Spam? I like spam, I’m quite partial to all ration food. Meh, I'm looking forward to trying bread and dripping though, as long as the shops don't run out of bread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 1 minute ago, Webbo said: Meh, I'm looking forward to trying bread and dripping though, as long as the shops don't run out of bread. Yeah, now that would be a disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 10 hours ago, Markyblue said: First for me the benefits of leaving have been negated by people who wanted to stay doing their upmost to ensure leaving is as difficult as possible. Our negotiations have been hampered by the near treasonous actions of remainers.in short the leave project has never been embraced or given a chance. Most of the problems are simple, a vote was taken and a large percentage on the losing side couldn't and will not except it. 3 hours ago, Webbo said: If people are upset because of the way some other people voted then they need to grow up. I'm not responsible for the mardy arsed attitude of some the remainers on here. If they can't accept they lost it's their problem. 15 minutes ago, MattP said: I do agree with @Kopfkino though on the ERG - they are now in the position of threats to try and blockade any sort of deal which is so unhelpful when even Europhiles like Macron are now pressuring the deal for a close business relation. You have to let the elected government negotiate this and bring it back to parliament. By the way, let's not forget some of the people now getting upset at the effect on business on here were the same people voting for a party just last year that wanted to raise Corporation tax back upto 26% and make John McDonnell the chancellor. That would have seen capital flight, job losses and business closure far bigger than any Brexit, but you had no problem voting for that insanity. Now all of a sudden you care about business. Spare me the bullshit, you wouldn't have given a shit after that and you know it. You lot can spare us the lectures on a person and his livelihood being destroyed. Before 2015 At the 1975 referendum, the nation voted 67%-33% to stay in the EEC. After that, no govt was elected with a mandate either to leave the EEC/EU or to hold a referendum on the issue. Staying in the EU was the established position. For at least 20 years, Eurosceptics campaigned unsuccessfully to change that position, through UKIP and within the Tory Party. Eventually they succeeded in electing a majority Tory govt with a mandate to hold a referendum. Was their opposition to the status quo "near-treasonous"? Was Farage a "mardy arse"? Should they have just "accepted they lost and it was their problem"? I didn't think so. I disagreed with their views but thought they had every right to express them and to campaign for a referendum and for Brexit. After 2016 Brexit is now the established position, although the exit terms are still unclear. But the referendum didn't bring democratic politics to an end or terminate free speech. Those who disagree with Brexit have every right to express their dismay about their adverse expectations and to campaign for a referendum on the negotiated terms. Just as the Eurosceptics had every right to use democracy and free speech to challenge the status quo before 2015, Remainers have every right to do the same after 2016. Isn't it amazing that Brexit was supposed to be a campaign for greater national democracy, yet has apparently become virulently hostile to democracy and free speech? Is Matt a "mardy arse" because he thinks a Corbyn govt would do great damage? I don't think so. I think his opinion is a bit OTT, but he's entitled to express it. Are we saying that Tory posters should not criticise Corbyn if he ever becomes PM or that they loyally applauded Blair/Brown as PM? Democracy and free speech are bigger than any political cause, including Brexit. So long as people abide by democracy and the rule of law, they should promote whatever views they want. As for "near-treasonous Remainers", that's just laughable! Nobody is seeking to undemocratically overturn the referendum result. Both main parties currently still support implementation of the referendum result. There are major disputes about what terms should be negotiated, but the referendum didn't specify any terms - so those advocating a Customs Union or EFTA/EEA membership have just as much democratic validity as those arguing for a Hard Brexit or No Deal, and it's the very opposite of treasonous for parliament or democratic politics to argue that out. Those who want a referendum on the final deal, hoping that Brexit will be reversed, will only get their way if our democratically-elected UK parliament votes for a referendum AND the people of this country vote to stay in the EU.....in the unlikely event that happens, that will be democracy. Brexiteers will not be "mardy arses" or "near-treasonous" if they then campaign for Brexit again. They'll not have to "accept they lost", they can carry on fighting, because the referendum did NOT abolish democracy or freedom of speech, much as some Brexiteers might have liked it to. I live in this country and had no intention of ever emigrating. I assume my daughter will want to live in this country. If I think that Brexit will be damaging and disruptive in the short/medium-term (with a deal) or potentially catastrophic for decades (if we go No Deal), then I'm not going to shut up because someone calls me a "mardy arse" or a "Remoaner" or accuses me of "near-treason" or tells me to "accept I've lost" - and I wouldn't expect Brexit supporters to shut up either. Feel free to go ahead saying how great Brexit and Global Britain are going to be, or how we're bound to get a great deal because the Germans need to sell us cars, or how the downturn will only be temporary but things will be great in 40 years, or how it doesn't matter if we end up poorer and in social conflict because "taking back control" was what really mattered..... Oh, Webbo, your claim about UK growth is factually incorrect: https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-economic-growth-higher-europe/ As you'll see from the graph, UK and Eurozone growth were the same last quarter, but UK growth has essentially been lower ever since 2016....will be interesting to see what happens in the next few quarters. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 28 minutes ago, Charl91 said: 'People' say that? People say the moon landings were faked. Some people are idiots. It's not rocket science, you can cherry-pick 'people' to make any point you want. Doesn't mean you're right though, lol. Most 'people' aren't saying we're currently in a disaster, only that we're heading towards one. I think the moon landings WERE rocket science, to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 That's what corned beef is made of, isn't it - minced dogs' anuses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webbo Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 3 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: I think the moon landings WERE rocket science, to be fair. What's your opinion on corned beef? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 31 August 2018 Share Posted 31 August 2018 1 minute ago, Webbo said: What's your opinion on corned beef? Already answered that one - posts must have crossed! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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