Unpopular Opinions You Hold

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Dunge said:

What is VAR if not presented as a perfect solution?

And that is a fallacy in of itself -  a strawman. Or at least I sincerely hope that it is; no one should be presenting VAR as a perfect solution in the same way no one should be presenting self driving cars as likewise, rather a solution better than what exists now or before. Of course, neither of those two applications as they are now can be definitively said to be better than what they've replaced.

[Dunge]

18 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

And that is a fallacy in of itself -  a strawman. Or at least I sincerely hope that it is; no one should be presenting VAR as a perfect solution in the same way no one should be presenting self driving cars as likewise, rather a solution better than what exists now or before. Of course, neither of those two applications as they are now can be definitively said to be better than what they've replaced.

Mate, you’ve done nothing but suggest that people who don’t want VAR are simply anti-technology for some pseudo-religious reason since we started debating it. You use the word “Luddites” repeatedly.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Dunge said:

Mate, you’ve done nothing but suggest that people who don’t want VAR are simply anti-technology for some pseudo-religious reason since we started debating it. You use the word “Luddites” repeatedly.

I've suggested that people who would reject it out of hand as irredeemable as that, yeah (and unless I've failed to read the room, there's been a fair bit of that about.) And I stand by that, because the idea it can't be improved in the same way any tech solution can is Luddite and not based on much rationality.

 

But I'll happily admit VAR as it is is not only far from perfect and never will be perfect, it also has so many flaws right now it needs to be withdrawn (except for offsides where a possible solution exists already) until it is improved in a way that is definitely better than what it replaced.

[Zear0]

Nice and simple for me. I much prefer watching our games without VAR. 

[Dunge]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I've suggested that people who would reject it out of hand as irredeemable as that, yeah (and unless I've failed to read the room, there's been a fair bit of that about.) And I stand by that, because the idea it can't be improved in the same way any tech solution can is Luddite and not based on much rationality.

 

But I'll happily admit VAR as it is is not only far from perfect and never will be perfect, it also has so many flaws right now it needs to be withdrawn (except for offsides where a possible solution exists already) until it is improved in a way that is definitely better than what it replaced.

It’s quite simple for me, and it always has been. I want to celebrate when the ball hits the net. It’s not about technology or not - goal line technology is great and clearly appreciated on the pitch as well as the stands. But that’s precisely why I’ve always had concerns about VAR - not because of nasty, new, scary computers but because I’d seen TMO in rugby and what an absolute annoyance it was there. I was against VAR because of that. But now it’s implemented I think it’s even worse than I thought it would be. People are still just as upset over decisions, just different decisions, different scales. So people still have grievances over officiating and fans in the stadium can’t celebrate goals when the ball hits the net.

 

In brief: Goal line tech = Great.

DRS (cricket) = Good, as it fits the sport and is applied well.

Hawkeye (tennis) = Great, similar to DRS, only faster.

TMO (rugby) = Frustrating, even in a sport where there are more natural stoppages than football.

VAR = Needs the Ol’ Yeller treatment.

You may class that as Luddite. I think that’s very unfair.

[grobyfox1990]

In the huge minority of having no problem with var. I wish we had it in April 2017 in Madrid. Hugely glad we had it in May 2021 at Wembley. We’ve had some shockers this season, lucky it doesn’t matter

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Dunge said:

It’s quite simple for me, and it always has been. I want to celebrate when the ball hits the net. It’s not about technology or not - goal line technology is great and clearly appreciated on the pitch as well as the stands. But that’s precisely why I’ve always had concerns about VAR - not because of nasty, new, scary computers but because I’d seen TMO in rugby and what an absolute annoyance it was there. I was against VAR because of that. But now it’s implemented I think it’s even worse than I thought it would be. People are still just as upset over decisions, just different decisions, different scales. So people still have grievances over officiating and fans in the stadium can’t celebrate goals when the ball hits the net.

 

In brief: Goal line tech = Great.

DRS (cricket) = Good, as it fits the sport and is applied well.

Hawkeye (tennis) = Great, similar to DRS, only faster.

TMO (rugby) = Frustrating, even in a sport where there are more natural stoppages than football.

VAR = Needs the Ol’ Yeller treatment.

You may class that as Luddite. I think that’s very unfair.

Nah, I don't think that's Luddite at all - unless someone believes that even when tech is able to make such decisions instantly and so there's no hesitation in "celebration" that it still shouldn't be implemented. That would be, and tbh I have seen some comments certainly implying that and sometimes outright stating it, which I really don't have much time for.

 

The twin problems are speed and subjectivity - I think you'd share that sentiment given your remarks here. With rugby given there are more natural stoppages and so personally I don't see speed as that much of an issue, whereas it is in football, and yet you still have the subjectivity (to a degree). With goal-line tech, DRS and Hawkeye in tennis, subjectivity is (pretty much) accounted for and speed falls within the natural speed of the sport, so they're rather easier adoptees (though India took some convincing about DRS up until Harbhajan middled an LBW decision against Broad on the second of his hat-trick deliveries in 2011). But for football, those two issues are still a massive problem and so I get people's arguments and do actually agree that in its current form VAR does more harm than good and shouldn't be used right now - or at least until at least one of the two above issues is cracked (preferably speed, because that's the one people appear to have the most beef with). What I don't agree with, and never will, is that idea that VAR never will work and should be abandoned entirely - because IMO it's blatantly illogical.

[bovril]

I don't really see the point of it in football where it's impossible to check every decision that can influence the outcome of a game.

[bovril]

Slightly surreal that you can get a goal chalked off for a foul like ten plays before the actual shot but also concede a goal from an incorrectly given corner.

[Lcfcbisto]

We are all football fans which is why we are on this site.

The reason we fell in love with football is not seeing the FT results on a sat night. it’s the spontaneous moments throughout the game and that moment when we score and the pure pleasure which makes you act like you would never act for any other reason in life, nothing else matters in that moment.

 

VAR takes that away from us, once you have been in a stadium and celebrated and it’s been taken away you can’t ever celebrate the same again. You feel like you have to wait even for the most clear cut goals. At that moment football has gone.

 

 

 

 

[leicsmac]

Just now, Lcfcbisto said:

We are all football fans which is why we are on this site.

The reason we fell in love with football is not seeing the FT results on a sat night. it’s the spontaneous moments throughout the game and that moment when we score and the pure pleasure which makes you act like you would never act for any other reason in life, nothing else matters in that moment.

 

VAR takes that away from us, once you have been in a stadium and celebrated and it’s been taken away you can’t ever celebrate the same again. You feel like you have to wait even for the most clear cut goals. At that moment football has gone.

 

 

 

 

That may be why some, or even a lot of football fans love the game - and it is important.

 

It isn't why all of them do.

[Lcfcbisto]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

That may be why some, or even a lot of football fans love the game - and it is important.

 

It isn't why all of them do.

Agreed people go for different reasons,

The money in football is lead by tv rights for the most part,  the viewing figures are not high because of 5min checks of a 5mm offside. They exist due to peoples love of football.

 

I genuinely think VAR will kill the love for the game, people can’t get that spontaneous buzz and kids won’t fall in love with the game like we all did. 
 

 

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, Lcfcbisto said:

Agreed people go for different reasons,

The money in football is lead by tv rights for the most part,  the viewing figures are not high because of 5min checks of a 5mm offside. They exist due to peoples love of football.

 

I genuinely think VAR will kill the love for the game, people can’t get that spontaneous buzz and kids won’t fall in love with the game like we all did. 
 

 

Perhaps. Which is why the problem of speed in order to restore that spontaneity needs to be overcome before VAR is implemented much further, or even as much as it is now.

[Dunge]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Nah, I don't think that's Luddite at all - unless someone believes that even when tech is able to make such decisions instantly and so there's no hesitation in "celebration" that it still shouldn't be implemented. That would be, and tbh I have seen some comments certainly implying that and sometimes outright stating it, which I really don't have much time for.

 

The twin problems are speed and subjectivity - I think you'd share that sentiment given your remarks here. With rugby given there are more natural stoppages and so personally I don't see speed as that much of an issue, whereas it is in football, and yet you still have the subjectivity (to a degree). With goal-line tech, DRS and Hawkeye in tennis, subjectivity is (pretty much) accounted for and speed falls within the natural speed of the sport, so they're rather easier adoptees (though India took some convincing about DRS up until Harbhajan middled an LBW decision against Broad on the second of his hat-trick deliveries in 2011). But for football, those two issues are still a massive problem and so I get people's arguments and do actually agree that in its current form VAR does more harm than good and shouldn't be used right now - or at least until at least one of the two above issues is cracked (preferably speed, because that's the one people appear to have the most beef with). What I don't agree with, and never will, is that idea that VAR never will work and should be abandoned entirely - because IMO it's blatantly illogical.

I think what we’re talking here to achieve this is for there to be accessible 4D replays that can be processed by AI either instantaneously or almost instantaneously. And that technology will need to be able to map across the pitch and judge things such as whether contact was too much contact (perhaps taking into account players’ weights), whether a player was an active offside, whether a player’s body shape was unnatural, and the like. Such a thing, if it existed, could then have to be programmable to particular leagues and adjustable for law changes.

 

Possible? Maybe. In theory. The moment of celebration would have to change from “balling hitting net” to “referee awards goal”, because there would be a small delay even if it’s just the ref checking a device on his wrist - like there is with goal line technology, although we happily accept it in that scenario because the technology is there to resolve inherent ambiguity.

 

I think we’re absolutely miles away from this right now though. Perhaps we can have AI calls for clear and obvious errors, once we’ve defined what these are, although even then the lines get blurred. Either way, it seems to me that it has to be repeatable AI rather than people sitting in a studio somewhere in real time. At which point it won’t be a “Video Assisted Referee” in anything resembling the format we have right now.

[worth_the_wait]

2 hours ago, grobyfox1990 said:

In the huge minority of having no problem with var. I wish we had it in April 2017 in Madrid. Hugely glad we had it in May 2021 at Wembley. We’ve had some shockers this season, lucky it doesn’t matter

Go back 7 years, and I suspect you'd find lots of our great moments had been retrospectively consigned to the bin.  

 

(and no, I'm not going to go back over every single incident over 7 years ... goal/no goal, penalty/no penalty, offside/not offside, sending off/not sending off ... to produce a list!)

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I think what we’re talking here to achieve this is for there to be accessible 4D replays that can be processed by AI either instantaneously or almost instantaneously. And that technology will need to be able to map across the pitch and judge things such as whether contact was too much contact (perhaps taking into account players’ weights), whether a player was an active offside, whether a player’s body shape was unnatural, and the like. Such a thing, if it existed, could then have to be programmable to particular leagues and adjustable for law changes.

 

Possible? Maybe. In theory. The moment of celebration would have to change from “balling hitting net” to “referee awards goal”, because there would be a small delay even if it’s just the ref checking a device on his wrist - like there is with goal line technology, although we happily accept it in that scenario because the technology is there to resolve inherent ambiguity.

 

I think we’re absolutely miles away from this right now though. Perhaps we can have AI calls for clear and obvious errors, once we’ve defined what these are, although even then the lines get blurred. Either way, it seems to me that it has to be repeatable AI rather than people sitting in a studio somewhere in real time. At which point it won’t be a “Video Assisted Referee” in anything resembling the format we have right now.

Certainly possible in theory and application would only be a matter of time and resources IMO.

 

Do agree there's a large distance between here and there. Also think the journey should be made and is worth the trip, as is the case with the vast majority of other tech progressions in other areas of sport and wider society.

 

I know that perhaps I'm approaching this from a too "general" outlook (not just football), but for me sometimes (bolded for emphasis) it appears to me that some folks want to rail against progress in a lot of fields - this just being one of them - in the name of tomorrow being just like today; or better, like some imagined idea of yesterday, which I strongly dislike for a lot of reasons. (This in no way should detract from the very specific, legit and salient complaints about VAR discussed above, however.)

[kenny]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Certainly possible in theory and application would only be a matter of time and resources IMO.

 

Do agree there's a large distance between here and there. Also think the journey should be made and is worth the trip, as is the case with the vast majority of other tech progressions in other areas of sport and wider society.

 

I know that perhaps I'm approaching this from a too "general" outlook (not just football), but for me sometimes (bolded for emphasis) it appears to me that some folks want to rail against progress in a lot of fields - this just being one of them - in the name of tomorrow being just like today; or better, like some imagined idea of yesterday, which I strongly dislike for a lot of reasons. (This in no way should detract from the very specific, legit and salient complaints about VAR discussed above, however.)

If you are that concerned about technological progress and football then you would be better to direct your energies into why the half time beer queue isn't a fully automated system that doesn't rely on minimum wage students that would be rather somewhere else .

 

If the VAR cash was spent on that, live football would be brilliant.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, kenny said:

If you are that concerned about technological progress and football then you would be better to direct your energies into why the half time beer queue isn't a fully automated system that doesn't rely on minimum wage students that would be rather somewhere else .

 

If the VAR cash was spent on that, live football would be brilliant.

...'cos apparently that isn't as important to the matchday experience, if current discussion topics are any judge.

 

But point taken.

[Dunge]

41 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Certainly possible in theory and application would only be a matter of time and resources IMO.

 

Do agree there's a large distance between here and there. Also think the journey should be made and is worth the trip, as is the case with the vast majority of other tech progressions in other areas of sport and wider society.

 

I know that perhaps I'm approaching this from a too "general" outlook (not just football), but for me sometimes (bolded for emphasis) it appears to me that some folks want to rail against progress in a lot of fields - this just being one of them - in the name of tomorrow being just like today; or better, like some imagined idea of yesterday, which I strongly dislike for a lot of reasons. (This in no way should detract from the very specific, legit and salient complaints about VAR discussed above, however.)

Worth noting that this is entertainment, not climate science.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Dunge said:

Worth noting that this is entertainment, not climate science.

Absolutely it is. But you'd be amazed how people's view on one and the other - along other things - can enmesh depending on their worldviews.

 

But anyway, I think there's broad(ish) agreement here that VAR in its current form doesn't work and needs to go back to the drawing board. It's what happens then that appears to be the matter for debate.

[ozleicester]

6 hours ago, Dunge said:

What is VAR if not presented as a perfect solution?

VAR is a joke, an attempt to turn sport further into entertainment, managable, controlled and mediocritised (yes thats my word  ).

Trying to make all games equal and competetive is the destruction of sport. An 0-9 away win wont happen as they balance the "competition"

Making pitches perfect removes the ability of a lesser team to exploit a bed weather day, removes the weird bounce that leads to the unexpected goal.

The attempted perfecting of all aspects of the game (refereeing inc) is about making an amazing sport into...a managable profitable live movie.

There should be mistakes, there should be upsets (2015/16 anyone) SPORT is not about equality

If you want perfection, watch movies and playstation games

Edited 3 January by ozleicester

[grobyfox1990]

5 hours ago, ozleicester said:

VAR is a joke, an attempt to turn sport further into entertainment, managable, controlled and mediocritised (yes thats my word  ).

Trying to make all games equal and competetive is the destruction of sport. An 0-9 away win wont happen as they balance the "competition"

Making pitches perfect removes the ability of a lesser team to exploit a bed weather day, removes the weird bounce that leads to the unexpected goal.

The attempted perfecting of all aspects of the game (refereeing inc) is about making an amazing sport into...a managable profitable live movie.

There should be mistakes, there should be upsets (2015/16 anyone) SPORT is not about equality

If you want perfection, watch movies and playstation games

I have no idea what any of this means. We’re in the midst of one of the most exciting prem seasons in years, upsets  every weekend, one of the most chaotic matches for a long time on nyd. If you’re not entertained by this or think it’s mediocre/controlled, you likely aren’t watching the prem this year 

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, ozleicester said:

VAR is a joke, an attempt to turn sport further into entertainment, managable, controlled and mediocritised (yes thats my word  ).

Trying to make all games equal and competetive is the destruction of sport. An 0-9 away win wont happen as they balance the "competition"

Making pitches perfect removes the ability of a lesser team to exploit a bed weather day, removes the weird bounce that leads to the unexpected goal.

The attempted perfecting of all aspects of the game (refereeing inc) is about making an amazing sport into...a managable profitable live movie.

There should be mistakes, there should be upsets (2015/16 anyone) SPORT is not about equality

If you want perfection, watch movies and playstation games

For someone who appears to (rightly) demand equity and equality of opportunity in practically every other area of life, that's an interesting thing to hear from you, Oz.

 

Not in any way a criticism or judgement, just interesting to hear.

[Dunge]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

For someone who appears to (rightly) demand equity and equality of opportunity in practically every other area of life, that's an interesting thing to hear from you, Oz.

 

Not in any way a criticism or judgement, just interesting to hear.

It’s entertainment. You wouldn’t insist that an opera singer run their voice through real-time auto-tune just because it’s technology and you can get closer to automated perfection.

At least I assume you wouldn’t.

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, Dunge said:

It’s entertainment. You wouldn’t insist that an opera singer run their voice through real-time auto-tune just because it’s technology and you can get closer to automated perfection.

At least I assume you wouldn’t.

True enough.

 

I just find the juxtaposition between such areas interesting.